Christians.... end times? day of the Lord?

[bluebirdiemama]

Ok...

If it's possible, let's try not to turn this into a debate, eh?
(.......as if I would be found innocent of turning convos into debates! )




Since there is no much room for interpretation in the Bible, I'm interested to know YOURS!!

What do you believe, think or question about the "end times".
Any and all thoughts relevant.

Also, which books of prophesy (from the Bible) have you read? and what is your take on it/them?

[cappuccinosmom]

I've read the Bible through once, working my way through it again. I think Revelation is the obvious main end-times book. I'm honestly not convinced that Daniel has much at all to do with the end times as we think of them. In my reading his prophesies could just as well have had to do with any number of situations in the ancient world, relating to the Israelites and surrounding cultures.

Personally, i am long past obsession with the end times. I find it especially annoying when the whole "true Christian" thing is brought into it--"A *true* Christian believes in [insert pet theory] about the end times." Gag.

To me, I think the basics are that a.)Christ is returning, b.)The dead will be resurrected and the living taken up for the final judgement, c.)there will be tribulations of some sort, at some time, and c.) the end of time here on earth is just a shift to eternity. Everything else is extraneous and often turns into pointless argument.

I'm excited for the day when Jesus returns, but to me it just isn't something to be afraid of or even mildly worried about. When it happens, it'll be on God's timing and in his way. In the mean time, he's given me life, and a family, and opportunities, and commands, and my job is to make the most of all of that, for his glory.

[zinemama]

Ooh, I love reading what people think about this stuff! (I'm not Christian and don't believe a word of it.)

[lilmom]

I pretty much agree with Cappucino'smom..I feel like the collective "we" of Christians have been focusing way too much on the End Times.

I think that the Bible is pretty clear that NO man knows the day, hour, or time the Lord will return. But lately it seems like people are pretty obsessed with pinning it down or focusing on it.

I think we just need to be secure in our faith. Knowing that one day the Lord will come, and we need to be ready.

I also agree that I am not sure how much Daniel has to do with the end times.

I have read the Bible through. And some people might think this is total blasphemy but I really had a hard time with Revelations, just mulling through it. I do believe there are statements in Revelations that certainly are meaningful and relevant to the end times, but if our focus is to be on living our faith and not the end times, like I believe, then Revelations is maybe not quite as important to me as say, the Gospels. Also I believe Revelations is highly symbolic and I think we will understand the meaning of it when the End times do come, if they come in our lifetime, but probably not until then. I am not at all saying we pick and choose what parts of the Bible to believe, just saying I personally did not feel Spirit led to anything specific within Revelations, unlike many other parts of the Bible.

[genifer]

This is interesting to see what other christians believe. Ive not posted yet just to get a feel what other christians feel about the subject. I agree with a lot of whats been said already, but while Im not obsessed with end times at all, I am interested in studying it further. I do believe the world looks more like the way Jesus described the end times in the gospels tho then it did in any point in history. Ill have a look at Daniel soon and consider what you guys have said about it here. I think Daniel looks at world history from a prophetic perspective, from Daniels day all the way thru to the end possibly. I believe Revelations, in a way, is similar, but it talks about things from a spiritual and metaphorical sense, while Daniel seems to be talking about things from a political perspective. Ill have to have a look at it again tho, its been a long time.

Whenever Im prayerfully seeking answers about the end times, either because someone's mentioned it, bc something might have frightened me concerning it, etc, I always get the sense that the 'signs of the times' are more evident today then ever, but that we are not necessarily as close as some fearmongering ministries would like us to believe (maybe so we can buy their endtimes books). I see a lot of fearmongering on the christian scene and it irks me to no end. There are some ministers and ministries who make a killing off the fear of others, and well, I think that kind of thing is just SO wrong.

[Kidzaplenty]

[z2akids]

I have read through the whole bible.

As far as End Times, End of Days, etc. it's not something that I dwell on. I don't know if it has anything to do with being Catholic, but those terms are ones I really only hear in movies and on the news when yet another organization has predicted XX/XX/XXXX as the end of the world. Is this a subject that people encounter regularly in their worship?

Personally, I am sure that there are people of every generation who have thought that their city/country/time is what was referred to in prophesy. I also believe that our concept of time is so far removed from God's infinite nature that I cannot possibly comprehend when Jesus may return.

[genifer]

Its interesting bc while I dont think its a very good thing to dwell on the end times, or try to predict it, create an atmosphere of fear over it, I do think its important to understand what the bible says about it, mostly bc I think Jesus urges us to keep watch and understand the signs of the times. But yes, I do believe that in every generation there has been a fringe group of people (at the least) who believed they were living within the imminant return of Christ. I dont like to take on much of what prominant church leaders have to say about it, bc they are all saying something different.

[Nazsmum]

I do think that we are seeing things leading to the return of Jesus. Many things that Jesus told us to look for are coming to pass. The biggest I see is the sheep being lead astray. How many "pastors" on TV and radio have nothing to do with Jesus! But they have thousands going right down that road with them.

The other thing that I see is the sign in the earth. Birth pains.

I have read the Bible many times and I think that Jesus speaks clearly about the end. But he has told us not to worry and that is what I hold on to.

One more thing.....I think that the whole left behind thing is so stupid. I do think that will will go though anything that comes along.

[Christopher]

I don't believe it either. I do think some of the Book of Revelation is detailing events of AD 70 (when Nero sacked Rome and blamed it on the Jews), but in a coded fashion. John the Revelator, afterall, was not allowed communication with anyone because he preached the Christian message. So, why not write a highly symbolized account of the events in an effort to preserve historical information?

In any case, I think it's all part of the writing fad of the day. Lots of self-described prophets had apocalyptic messages. They varied quite widely. Revelation is no different in the sense that it is another among many. Incidentally, it almost didn't find inclusion in the canon when they were deciding such issues in the 4th century. It was hotly contested, and barely made it in.

[bluebirdiemama]

well this thread didn't go where i intented it to...
so i haven't posted....

i think the god i serve is an intentional god. He has goals, and He works everything out to meet those goals.
i think the book of revelation was included in thebible, because God wanted it in there.

i think the bible is what, 20-30% prophesy? for a reason.

Jesus set the example for us, and he spoke about the end times.

i think it is totally relevant. that doesn't mean i think about it all the time.


i guess i should have put a different title, to get the convo i intended...... eh?

[Nazsmum]

May I ask what you are looking for? I'm not following?

[bluebirdiemama]

well i guess ths is close... but the first few posts kinda put me on the defense...

i like reading the bible in general, and find prophesies interesting... a lot of it is so vague that i though it would be fun to share interpretations about specifics relating to actual occurences....

and also, peoples interpretations of what will happen.
ie, is there a rapture? is there a harvest after Jesus returns? (LDS belief)
heaven, crowns, judgements
etc etc

just basically, interpretations(if any) of all the vague stuff

should have been more specific.maybe i or someone else will post a new thread

[cappuccinosmom]

Well, I don't think the concept of heaven is vague. I'm goin' there.

I think there will be a final judgement. "Rapture" isn't in the Bible but there is one phrase about being "caught up" with Jesus. Now, one of the old-time prophets was caught up in a chariot of fire, and Enoch walked with God and then apparently disappeared, so it's a possibility.

Really, my negativity is more directed toward what I see in some segments of the church--obsessing, date setting, making laws/declarations when the subject is highly open to interpretation, etc.

It's totally interesting to think about, but I find discussions or debates on the subject just wearying and mostly pointless.

[Shami]

I have done a little study, but am def. no expert. I believe we should study this, but not try to figure out dates and such. What is most important is to know the Lord when He returns. There will be many false prophets and the antichrist who will deceive and fool many believers into thinking that they are the real deal. If we spend time with the Lord in our daily pursuit, we will really know the Lord and know His voice. We will know His speaking.

As a pp said, there are many out there who are being led astray right now. I think the prosperity gospel is the worst offender. God wants to give you the best car, a big house, etc. I believe God will provide for us as in, He will meet our needs, but not always our wants. Sadly, so many people want to hear this kind of message. If the Jesus and the disciples are our pattern, then we will be beaten, tortured, and martered. We are not here on this earth to be rich and comfy. However, the Lord may do this for some.

I believe there will be a harvest and with a harvest there are first fruits. When you read the parable of the ten virgins, I believe the ones who are prepared with their vessels full of oil (from the Old Tes., oil signifies the Spirit), full of the Spirit, will be at the wedding feast. The ones who did not have their vessels filled will suffer a discipline from the Lord. The Bible talks about overcomers. Who will be the overcomers? I don't know.

I believe overcomers are those who seek the Lord in order to overcome this age, temptations, our yucky self, and whatever trials come our way. My prayer is Lord, make me an overcomer! Do whatever it takes to make me an overcomer! I think the Lord allowed Job to be stripped of everything in order to make him an overcomer.

The 1000 years, which I don't know if that is literal or not, is when the believers who have not been seeking the Lord will suffer in order to be prepared for the New Jerusalem.

The New Jerusalem is the organic union, the mingling of God and His people for eternity. Most people just refer to this as heaven and that's fine. I think it is the complete organic union with God for eternity which is a heavenly thought. Wow. No more sin, evil, pain, suffering, darkness, all gone into the lake of fire! In Revelation, the old heaven and earth pass away because it is part of the old fallen creation. There is the bride coming down out of heaven from God, which are the believers who have been regenerated, justified, reconciled, transformed, conformed and glorified. Right now, we need to be prepared as a bride for Christ. It is not enough to just become a believer and then go back into the world. We have to cultivate a relationship with the Lord. He needs to be our life and our life supply, our source. Corinthians talks about materials for building. Some burn up and some are precious, which are for building. I may come back later and write because that is a big factor in what I am talking about, not much time and i need to find verses.

We need to cooperate with the Lord, take up our cross, die to our self, our wants, and love Christ above any person place or things. This will prepare us as a bride. Loving Christ is our motivating factor, not trying to be a good person. Just love Christ, confess and ask for forgiveness when we mess up and simply keep on loving Him. By loving Him we will get to know Him intimately as a husband and wife. He is washing away all of our spots and wrinkles day by day. So loving Him above all else is the key. Turning to our spirit and away from our temper, our lusts, and whatever is hindering our relationship with Him is key to making us overcomers.

Revelation 12:11

11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

[genifer]

Shami, that is a very good way of putting all that. There are so many 'details' that Im not so up on as far as end times.

The rapture. Now, if it is something that is anything like what we hear christians talking about today I dont believe we will escape any kind of difficulty, martyrdom or trails just bc we are believers in Christ, I dont believe that believing in Christ is our ticket out of the tribulation. Im not sure we'll see the whole tribulation but I believe the 'trib' as far as the understanding goes in mainstream christian circles is concerned is going to be a real thing. I think we speculate on these things but wont know exactly what its like until we go thru it. Ive said that I dont know if we wont see it in my lifetime.

The one world government is well on its way imho, along with the one world currency. Already with debit card and credit cards we are moving towards a cashless society, how long will that take? Idk. But I am often shocked at how fast things seem to be moving in that direction.

Im just picking up on some of the things that many christians are talking about now. The Rapture, tribulation, one world government, etc etc. But, I must admit that like Shami described, I dont have a great understanding of how these things will play out, mostly bc I genuinely am more concerned with growing in Christ and teaching my family the same, just the way Shami described. I know what christendom says about all this but I feel that there is a lot of fearmongering involved in the discussions I hear about it which takes the focus off what we should be doing while we 'wait' which is learning from and loving on our Lord, growing in our understanding of Him.

[Shami]

Gen--thanks for that response and I couldn't agree more. I forgot about the one world govt. stuff and the currency.
I wanted to add a little more to complete my thoughts.

We, the believers, must be transformed and conformed into the same image of Him. We will eventually be His bride. Christ cannot marry someone who does not match Him in life and nature. Some of us have to mature, grow in Christ, to become His bride to enter into the wedding feast.

For clarity sake...we do not marry out of our species because we don't match in life and nature. Likewise we do not marry children (except in cultures who do give their young teenage girls up to marry men). But in general, adults marry adults because we want someone who matches us.

Continuing on...we all need to mature and be transformed. The question is will it be now or later? I choose now, at least I tell the Lord that because I don't want to go through the tribulation.

1 Cor 3 There is a reward depending on the materials you use for building. I look at it as if i don't have the Lord as my source, or I waste my talent (Matt 25), or I don't get my vessel (meaning me) filled with the Holy Spirit (Matt 25), then I won't receive the reward and I have to stay longer to be transformed probably going through the great tribulation. I think of it like going to summer school because of bad grades through the year.

However, it's not all about me trying to avoid the tribulation because I just don't know if I will avoid it anyway. I really want the Lord to return. What is He waiting for anyway???!!! He's been waiting 2000 years now. What is going to bring Him back?

I believe it is His bride. We have to make ourselves ready by loving Him, pursuing Him, turning to Him daily. I think He is waiting for His bride. On the other hand, He is wooing and courting us and calling us day by day if only we would respond to Him.

Precious stones are made by heat and pressure. A diamond is made by heat and pressure. We are earthen vessels, but we have a treasure in our earthen vessels (2 Cor 4:7), which is Christ. But our being transformed and conformed into the same image has everything to do with heat and pressure coming from our environment. The suffering that we go through in our daily life need not be in vain, rather it is for us to gain Christ in order to make us precious stones, good for the building up of the body of Christ. The great tribulation will be for this purpose, as well, to gain Christ.

Eventually we will have gained Christ to the extent that we are saturated and permeated with Him even into our physical bodies. Glorification, God saturating us to the point of exploding (can't think of a better word) or being fully expressed through us. The Lord will return on a cloud and also He is coming back through us and out of us.

I believe during the great tribulation there will be believers who need further transformation as well as unbelievers. I also believe there are some believers who will be rewarded and escape the great trib to be in the wedding feast. In the end, all believers will be a part of the New Jerusalem (meaning be organically joined to God for eternity, or be in heaven as most people say).

Sorry if this is all disjointed. I had trouble making my thoughts flow.

But anyway, what matters to the Lord is our response to Him. He's calling us and loving us and we just need to say, I love You, Lord, and I am here for You. I am a big failure, but I am here if You want to use me for the building up of your body.

I can't stress enough that all God has to work with is us sinners. I mean in us humans, He doesn't have some good material to start with for His building because we are all natural, fallen sinners. It's the Christ growing in us that is the good material for His building. This is why growing in Christ is the key, rather than trying to be a good Christian person. We can be good, good, good people, but void of Christ, it means nothing. Lots of unbelievers are excellent people, and I would say much better than me, a believer for 10 years. But void of Christ, all of that goodness is going into the lake of fire. It is simply not the material with which God builds His body...it's got to be Christ. I am also talking about all of our good works as believers. If the source is our self, then it is natural, and will be burned up in the lake of fire. We will not perish. Our salvation is secure. See 1 Cor 3. However, wood, grass and stubble represents our natural man, our building with our self as our source. Gold, silver and precious stones represent building with Christ as our source.
May the Lord have mercy on us all. Sorry, too long. Thanks for sticking with me if you read this far!

[Nazsmum]

Shami- I agree!!! Thanks for adding.

I was thinking about this alittle last night and want to say two things.
First I always find it interesting that Jesus talk about coming back at night.

The other thing that goes a long with that is the 10 virgins. I want to share how I see the story.

I see the oil as oil. At the time that Jesus was here, a groom would go away to make a place for the bride. The bride would not know the day/time of the grooms return. So she must always be ready to welcome her groom. If it is at night she would need the light of a lamp. The vigins to me have wasted the oil. They had to be thinking that the groom will not come "tonight".

I see this for christians, we need to ready to welcome our groom. For unbelievers they don't think that Jesus is coming. Do you know what I mean?

Thanks for listening.

[Shami]

Nazmum, very interesting about the bride waiting for the groom and the groom preparing a place! Thanks for that info.

I thought of a another physical thing that we can watch for and that is the rebuilding of the physical temple for the Jewish people to truly worship God. Jewish people please correct me if I say something incorrect. From my understanding they have all of the items, like vessels and a red hefer, they need to worship the Lord, but they don't have the ground because there is a mosque there.

Some years back a prominent Jewish figure (can't remember who) went to this place. Does anyone know if it is Mount Zion? The physical mount Zion? All I know is that it is a mount in Jerusalem. Anyway it really stirred the pot for this Jewish figure to go to this ground because eventually a temple has to be built and the Jews must worship God in this place. I am not sure if this means that the mosque has to be taken down. From my understanding the Jewish way of worship will not be complete until this occurs. I really hope I am not saying anything wrong or offensive!

[Nazsmum]

Yes, they do have temple items!!! It is my understanding that the Dom of the Rock is the "place". They have had the items for many years now.

It is very interesting to see all of these things going on.

OH and you are right about the prime mintstrer going to the temple mount. I just acn't think of his name right now.