Kids who bother classmates?

[mattemma04]

My ds has been having problems with a boy in his class.Said boy bothers my son along with other kids. The boy seems to have self control issues. Likes to hit,push,invade personal space,and just do anything silly/annoying to get classmates upset.

This issue has been going on all year.I remember talking about it during fall conferences. I always tell my son the usual stuff:talk to the boy,tell the teacher,avoid him,and so on.

Yesterday the boy hit my ds with a book.And as usual my son told the teacher,and the teacher told the boy not to do that.

Today will be a new day.Boy will hit or annoy my son.Son will tell the teacher.Teacher will tell boy to not do that.

I think now that the year is almost up this boy should know by now that hurting and/or bothering other students is not OK. I am TIRED of having ds tell,and the boy is told to stop(for the day).It does not change the fact that ds was hit. If a co-worker was hitting or annoying the teachers every day surely a warning from the principal over and over to the co-worker would not be enough.

So what do I do? I have been through this issue before,but it was more serious bullying.In the other case I had to finally pull my child out of school.Ds does not want to leave his current school(montessori based),but I can't see paying for him to get hurt or annoyed.

Shouldn't there be a more strict punishment each time a student repeats a behavior that is against rules? I have little hope since this has been going on all year.When I talked to the teacher she acted SUPRISED,and said she would talk to the boy.Talk,talk,talk. How many times do you warn a child not to hit....after he has hit?

[ollyoxenfree]

Does the school have a discipline policy? Usually there is a written policy describing the consequences for different problem behaviours. Some schools/boards have zero-tolerance policies for hitting. I don't agree with automatic, no appeal punishments in many of these policies, but I agree with a philosophy that hitting requires consequences.

Since the teacher has been ineffective in dealing with the problem, have you tried speaking with the principal? If the principal is doing nothing, and it's a private school (you mention paying), have you taken it to the board of governors?

It sounds like this child needs special support - intervention from the school psychologist, possibly an educational assistant to work with him in class, a social skills program.

If the school has no discipline policy or hasn't been enforcing it, and no support program for students with behavioural problems and psychoeducational special needs, then it's definitely an issue to take to the school authorities. In a public school, that would be the school supervisors (above the principal, at the school board level) and the elected representatives. In a private school, it's the board of governors or trustees. Let them know that if the situation doesn't improve, then the consequences may be loss of income (you'll leave and possibly other families too), criminal investigation (hitting is an assault), and certainly damage to their reputation as a safe, nurturing learning environment that can effectively manage discipline.

You will need to collect a history of incidents to provide to them to establish that this is an ongoing problem that hasn't been dealt with effectively. Try to maintain a neutral, fact-based tone, without appearing to persecute this troubled youngster. The idea is to focus on achieving a safe classroom for your child and also, possibly, help for this other child (that's not really your concern, but it would make life better for the other students including your own child).

Good luck.

[One_Girl]

I think you should talk to the teacher and possibly the director and tell them you don't want to pay for your child to be hurt, and that you don't like that this has been going on all year with the same consequence.

[mattemma04]

Thank you for the posts!

I have to find the booklet and read it over again.
I had it last month when I read through it after an incident. Had a letter all written,but was told by family to just *wait and see*.No one likes to rock the boat.

Unfortunately I have not marked down every incident. I am pretty sure it is teacher first then either meeting or letter to the head mistress(aka principal).After that I am not sure,but I suppose the board. I am marking everything on the calendar now. I should have done this before.but like last time I just kept hoping it would just resolve on its own.

I am thinking in the least that if it continues into next year,and ds does not want to stay there anymore then we should get some tuition back. I will ask about this now.

I have a meeting with the teacher today at 3pm,so hopefully all will go well. I am not angry at the teacher(s),but they have to understand saying stop over and over is just not enough for me anymore. I will let her know I have to take the next step now with my complaints instead of having ds just tell them and me each time something comes up.

[Emmeline II]

My son is that boy , BUT I have a stack of paperwork, including at least three ISS forms and meetings with the school counselor and principal, and he sees a therapist--I'm tired too and I cannot wait for the school year to end . Parents have complained--I think it keeps the school "honest" about following their policies.

It seems that your school does not have written policy as to how they are supposed to deal with the situation. My son's teacher says that she is required to document everything and get back a parent signature--though it is a public school (K).

[joensally]

What grade is this?

This kind of behaviour is very developmentally common in the younger grades, and the younger the child the less he may need big-guns intervention. That said, the teacher needs to respond and proactively support this child to control his impulses.

I would talk to the teacher again today and be clear that it's a pattern of behaviour (ie daily, multiple times a day, a few times per week). Ask that she give you a clear plan as to how she'll keep your DS safe. Follow up with an email. Consider cc'ing the principal/director. If you don't know what the plan is by the middle of next week, go meet with the principal director and escalate from there as necessary.

My son had trouble with reactive hitting when he was 3-6 - he didn't instigate, he really was reacting and there was always a catalyst (he has SPD). The teachers always had a plan and worked to keep his sensory issues regulated to avoid triggers. This year, he never hits at all (yay him!). However, there was a boy who was hitting him A LOT - like multiple times per day, usually out of a teacher's sight line. I mentioned it to the teacher a few times and I knew they were trying. Then it escalated and I emailed. The next day this little boy had a whole strategy in place that was a dramatic change to the structure of his day and things greatly improved. In my email I detailed the when's and where's of what was happening and I think seeing it in writing really gelled it for them.

GL with your meeting today.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

My son is that boy , BUT I have a stack of paperwork, including at least three ISS forms and meetings with the school counselor and principal, and he sees a therapist--I'm tired too and I cannot wait for the school year to end .

oh, hugs!

I know that feeling of overwhelmed despair and helplessness when your nice little boy just will not stop doing something that is harming himself (relationships) and others.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

My DD is that little girl that bounced up and down, annoys other classmates, does silly things, gets in other's faces, disrupts the class... She doesn't hit, but she is definitely annoying. At least, she was until we found the right ADHD medication. Yes, the teacher was constantly reprimanding her. She was sent to the office. She lost points (big deal at our school). But honestly, she was simply not physically capable of stopping sometimes. I'm sure other children, parents and teachers were frustrated. She was frustrated too, and convinced that she was the worst child in the room. She would come home and cry at night because she couldn't figure out what to do.

I'm NOT excusing hitting, but I am trying to point out that there may be more sides to the story than you think. And if there is a more concentrated effort with this child, an IEP plan or similar, they can't tell you about it.

At the same time, my DS was the victim of a bully during the first half of this year. He complained, we complained, other parents complained... Finally they moved him to another classroom where he was less likely to hurt someone. But it did take most of 6 months to get the problem solved.

You have every right to ask the teacher and the administration what the plans are for keeping your child safe. If the teacher isn't capable of doing that, then you definitely need to move up the chain. At the same time, please be open to the idea that they might be trying to solve the problem but they haven't found the right solution yet. I know its not right for your child to be hurt, but sometimes it takes time to solve these problems. Of course, if your sense after talking to the teacher is that they aren't even trying, then raise h*** until they do.

[mattemma04]

Well I had the meeting yesterday. Pretty much went as I expected with the teacher telling me how they are trying to deal with the boy.There are actually 3 boys that create chaos in the class,but only one is into the physical aggresion with others.

I said I would like to take it to the next level ,and will file a written complaint if anything happens again.She said that was fine. Only negative was minimizing the boys actions,and saying my ds over reacted and was probably only tapped or lightly hit with the book to which I responded,"Light or hard is irrelevant.The fact is he hit my son with a book when he should have handed it to him."

Said boy is leaving the school next year,so I am thinking they are just coasting till the end of the year.Still if the boy bothers my son I will make a stink about it.Teacher,administrator,and parents are already aware of the boys impulse tendencies.

I do understand that children have many issues that affect behavior. I totally get that and it is the reason why I am only NOW starting to get annoyed,and not when this started in the beginning of the year.At the start of the year I merely mentioned my concerns,and how the behavior of other children was makling it very difficult for my ds to learn and enjoy his time in school each day.At this point of the school year it(problem behaviors) should have been resolved or the child removed.

This is a Montessori class and so that means different ages together.Lower elementary is ages 6-9.Upper elementary is 9-12.The age of 9 is an overlap,and kids move up if they are ready. Yes,first years(age 6) are a handful.Next year there will be a lot more coming into ds's class! Thankfully my son was not a behavior problem at age 6,but on the other hand has always been easily annoyed by the negative/silly behavior of others.....so even we have things to work on,lol.

I have looked at documents for the local public schools and the rise in children needing special care due to mental issues is rising.I am sure it is the same for private schools.It is quite sad.It may get to the point where our only option is to school at home,so that the children do not have to deal with the daily distractions in the classroom.

Hugs for everyone! It is difficult dealing with these issues. I so want everyone to just get along,and have a fun time learning together.Wish that wasn't an impossible dream!

[amcal]

Ummm, if a child physically assaulted my child I would lose my ever living mind!

You can't accidentally hit another child with a book. And this has been a repeated pattern all year? Yikes!

I can't see how this has been allowed to go on all year long.

I would have told them immediately upon the very first incident that I expect that child will no longer be anywhere near my child.

Most schools have a zero tolerance policy.

I know when my DD had a boy who was teasing her, irritating her, bullying her etc... earlier this year, I talked to the teacher each and every time. Then, he put his hand on her - squeezed her wrist to the point she was in tears. That was it. I demanded he be moved and if he touched her again, I was on my way to the principal. The teacher moved him, talked to his parents and we haven't had an issue again.

I try to teach my kids to stand up for themselves, to be assertive, to seek help when they need it but, for me, once another child touches my child in anger or frustration or whatever, that's the last straw. I demand action.

[je309]

Originally Posted by amcal

Ummm, if a child physically assaulted my child I would lose my ever living mind!

You can't accidentally hit another child with a book. And this has been a repeated pattern all year? Yikes!

I can't see how this has been allowed to go on all year long.

I would have told them immediately upon the very first incident that I expect that child will no longer be anywhere near my child.

Most schools have a zero tolerance policy.

I know when my DD had a boy who was teasing her, irritating her, bullying her etc... earlier this year, I talked to the teacher each and every time. Then, he put his hand on her - squeezed her wrist to the point she was in tears. That was it. I demanded he be moved and if he touched her again, I was on my way to the principal. The teacher moved him, talked to his parents and we haven't had an issue again.

I try to teach my kids to stand up for themselves, to be assertive, to seek help when they need it but, for me, once another child touches my child in anger or frustration or whatever, that's the last straw. I demand action.

I completely agree with this. There is not a chance on this Earth that I would put up with another child physically assaulting one of my kids. I honestly can't believe that this has gone on as long as it has. I hope you get this resolved!

[WantRice]

This is an interesting discussion. As a teacher, I am curious to know what parents on this side of the fence would recommend the teacher do as far as dealing with the difficult child. Without the support of an assistant or a special worker, many teachers are left to their own devices and it becomes a drawn out process of trial and error--the teacher tries something and it doesn't work, the child hits, or pokes, or annoys others; the teacher tries something new and again it doesn't work, the child hits, pokes, annoys, etc. This goes on and on with no end in sight. So, parents of children who are being bothered, what would you like to see done with the offending child?

I imagine that any kind of reward/punishement system, taking away recess/gym/art would not be acceptable to most of the parents here?

[jen in co]

Originally Posted by WantRice

So, parents of children who are being bothered, what would you like to see done with the offending child?

I've been lucky that neither of my kids have been a target of this type of situation, but I think when the behavior happens repeatedly, the child should at least be moved to a desk by themselves (off in a corner, away from groups/pods of desks). If they can't respect their seat mates and after gentle warnings/talking, it doesn't improve, I think the child should be separated.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by WantRice

Without the support of an assistant or a special worker, many teachers are left to their own devices and it becomes a drawn out process of trial and error

At least in our public school, the teacher has a social worker and can refer the child for an evaluation.

I'm curious if the child has a dx and what is being done for him.

I think that all parents can use these opportunities to teach child how to deal with difficult people, how not to be a target, etc.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by WantRice

This is an interesting discussion. As a teacher, I am curious to know what parents on this side of the fence would recommend the teacher do as far as dealing with the difficult child. Without the support of an assistant or a special worker, many teachers are left to their own devices and it becomes a drawn out process of trial and error--the teacher tries something and it doesn't work, the child hits, or pokes, or annoys others; the teacher tries something new and again it doesn't work, the child hits, pokes, annoys, etc. This goes on and on with no end in sight. So, parents of children who are being bothered, what would you like to see done with the offending child?

I imagine that any kind of reward/punishement system, taking away recess/gym/art would not be acceptable to most of the parents here?

This thread has been bothering me for days. This attitude that children with behaviour issues are throw away kids, which is how it sounds when posters say "nope, wouldn't stand for it, they just need to make the problem go away." Not directed at WantRice or the OP.

My first child (a girl) was a model student and I remember being appalled at the behaviour of some of the boys. Then my little boy started struggling with self-control and it was a horrible time. In his case, it was sensory issues, little boy impulse issues, and an educational environment that didn't fit. For many boys, schools are not friendly places that work to their strengths, but rather are highly feminized environments with expectations more in line with particular types of kids.

DS is hugely successful now in class - why? Because he got a bit older, we addressed some of the sensory stuff, and he's in a classroom that is very different from a mainstream classroom. They use democratic process, hands-on learning, Tools of the Mind strategies, leadership strategies, individualized learning and the teacher, above all, teaches them to think, not blindly obey.

We HS'd grade 1 in part because his struggles to control his reactivity were just too great and he needed time to grow without all that pressure. In our case, it really helped. But it really isn't an option available for most families and schools need to have better strategies beyond red light/green light and exclusion etc.

[jen in co]

Originally Posted by joensally

This thread has been bothering me for days. This attitude that children with behaviour issues are throw away kids, which is how it sounds when posters say "nope, wouldn't stand for it, they just need to make the problem go away." Not directed at WantRice or the OP.

I'm sure this partially directed at my post from about separating the child:

Originally Posted by jen in co

I've been lucky that neither of my kids have been a target of this type of situation, but I think when the behavior happens repeatedly, the child should at least be moved to a desk by themselves (off in a corner, away from groups/pods of desks). If they can't respect their seat mates and after gentle warnings/talking, it doesn't improve, I think the child should be separated.

No one is saying that kids who are having self control issues are throw away kids...nor is anyone saying they should be removed permanently. But, if a child is unable to control themselves (e.g. can't stop touching others, talking, etc), I think having that child sit separately helps both kids -- the kid being bothered and the kid having self control issues.

My kids go to a highly academic local public school...despite what I think is way too much seat work for 5 and 6 year old kids, the kids are allowed to get up and move around and aren't forced to sit still for long periods. They get plenty of recess (AM, Lunch and PM), specials, etc. The teacher also knows for some kids that they need to stand while they work (instead of sitting down) and is very flexible. Having said that, occasionally a kid needs to be separated for a short period of time...normally not for the whole day (just for seat work times) and then only for a few days to a week or so. The teacher uses no Red, Green, Yellow stuff and really seems to practice GD. She works with the kids for a while before resorting to separation, but at some point, she has an obligation to the "victim" kid too (I'm not saying these kids are being subjected to anything too serious, but what happens does make it difficult for them to get their work done) to provide an environment where they can learn effectively.

Sorry if this seems like a rant...I get that many kids go through periods with self control issues and it doesn't mean that they're throw away kids, but I also think that their behavior can't be allowed to continuously disrupt learning for those who aren't having self control issues. A PP asked what you would have done and I was just relating what happens at our school. I feel for the parents of the kids who are having these issues...it can't be fun and I always try to give the benefit of the doubt and assume they're doing everything they can to manage the situation, but either way, it's a tough situation.

[amcal]

The issue for me is when a child physically assaults another child. No, you don't throw that child away but, if that child can not keep their hands off other children then, they need to be separated.

Just as the aggressive child has a right to education, my child has a right to be educated in a safe environment.

As far as what I would do if I had a physically aggressive child, well, I have the ability to be a stay at home mom so, my behind would be parked in a chair in the classroom until my child could get themselves under control.

If I didn't have the ability to sit with my child, I would request that my child be separated so that they did not have the opportunity to hurt other children.

If that didn't work, I think I'd seriously need to explore other educational avenues.

[peaceful_mama]

I've been on both ends of this issue.

In classrooms I have worked in, we have had specific plans for making sure *all* children's needs are met. It might be a specific "cool down" place and plan for the child who is impulsive, along with stricter supervision--sometimes to the point that one adult is "in charge" of knowing where "Johnny" is and what he is doing AT ALL TIMES. Meaning if "Johnny" is over in the block area, so is "Teacher Mary". Typically, this involves interacting with and supervising all the children in a given area so it's not totally obvious to everyone that someone is being singled out for extra supervision.
Also possibly a 'reward' type system, depends on the kid. Where days/times without hitting get some sort of reward.

But the main objective would likely be to provide more supervision of "Johnny" and a plan on some sort of 'consequence' or action to be taken when he hits. NOT simply "Stop it." That's not enough at this point.

As a parent--who has been on the other side--if my kid continually came home and said "Johnny" was hitting him, kicking him at 'table time', destroying things he worked on, whatever it might be, I would have no issue with going to the principal---of course, the first time I am going to talk to the teacher. But if there's a second or third time, it's movin' on up. There's NO excuse for a particular child--or even if it is different children--to be physically hurting other kids or their projects. (I know projects weren't mentioned, but since my experience is preschool, my mind goes to the kids who continually knock over block towers and things like that as well as hitting/kicking/hurting.)

[joensally]

Originally Posted by jen in co

I'm sure this partially directed at my post from about separating the child:



No one is saying that kids who are having self control issues are throw away kids...nor is anyone saying they should be removed permanently. But, if a child is unable to control themselves (e.g. can't stop touching others, talking, etc), I think having that child sit separately helps both kids -- the kid being bothered and the kid having self control issues.

My kids go to a highly academic local public school...despite what I think is way too much seat work for 5 and 6 year old kids, the kids are allowed to get up and move around and aren't forced to sit still for long periods. They get plenty of recess (AM, Lunch and PM), specials, etc. The teacher also knows for some kids that they need to stand while they work (instead of sitting down) and is very flexible. Having said that, occasionally a kid needs to be separated for a short period of time...normally not for the whole day (just for seat work times) and then only for a few days to a week or so. The teacher uses no Red, Green, Yellow stuff and really seems to practice GD. She works with the kids for a while before resorting to separation, but at some point, she has an obligation to the "victim" kid too (I'm not saying these kids are being subjected to anything too serious, but what happens does make it difficult for them to get their work done) to provide an environment where they can learn effectively.

Sorry if this seems like a rant...I get that many kids go through periods with self control issues and it doesn't mean that they're throw away kids, but I also think that their behavior can't be allowed to continuously disrupt learning for those who aren't having self control issues. A PP asked what you would have done and I was just relating what happens at our school. I feel for the parents of the kids who are having these issues...it can't be fun and I always try to give the benefit of the doubt and assume they're doing everything they can to manage the situation, but either way, it's a tough situation.

My post up thread wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just some of the "cowboy" language in some posts .

I've been on all sides of this issue as a parent - mom of the little girl who never aggravated anyone (afaik) but received some nasties from other kids, the little boy who struggled with self-control, and earlier this year my (reformed ) little boy who was on the receiving end of some persistent physical and other annoying stuff.

My son's class happens to have a number of boys with self-control issues. It's been very interesting this year observing the struggles of the teachers to deal with these boys. My observation is that isolation did not work with any of them - if a kid really can't control himself consistently, his desk being separated only works to stop the behaviour while he's sitting there.

My observation of boys DD went to school with is that they really mellowed out by gr4-5 and that teachers spent a lot of time mad at them up until then. The teachers in DS's class seem to use a multiplicity of approaches to support these kids to learn new strategies, and I'd say I've seen slow changes with these boys over this year but they're still struggling.

I think physical aggression from boys can come from a variety of sources and that one needs to understand where it's coming from before providing the "cure." I think one boy in DS's class has mental health issues, another boy has major impulse control issues and is immature and likes the reaction he gets from annoying people, and kids like DS are reactive - overstimulated and they push.

Finally, I remember when an EI person observed DS at preschool when he was 3. She noticed his sensory issues and also noticed that the other kids liked to aggravate him to get a reaction. When the teachers paid attention to this, as well as his sensory issues, his reactions dramatically reduced. Sometimes there's more to the story than "he randomly hit her/him" - I am not saying that the child who is hit is at fault, but sometimes it can be that for the child who is hitting there's a whole lot of other stuff going on (like the last three kids he interacted with were negative or overstimulating and another child was just in the wrong spot). This doesn't make the hitting/pushing/whatever acceptable, but more understandable and the teacher can work with it better.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by joensally

I think physical aggression from boys can come from a variety of sources and that one needs to understand where it's coming from before providing the "cure." I think one boy in DS's class has mental health issues, another boy has major impulse control issues and is immature and likes the reaction he gets from annoying people, and kids like DS are reactive - overstimulated and they push.

agreed.

I also find the posts that say things like "if it were my child I would just...." kinda of annoying. I know that it's easy to think that you have all the answers and are the perfect parent, but the reality is that if you had a child with mental health issues or neurological issues etc., you'd be as lost as the rest of us.

The behavoir described is common for boys with the same dx as my DD. She has never acted like that, but knowing that common parenting practices have no effect on her quirks what so ever and that some times her behavoir looks like bad parenting rather than autism leaves me with a great deal of compassion for the kids and parents dealing with this.

I agree that it isn't OK to allow this behavoir to continue and that ALL children have a right to be safe at school, I just think that figuring out a real solution is very difficult. You have to figure out the root cause first.