Kids who bother classmates? - Page 2

[amcal]

So, who figures out the root cause?

I'm asking because we're seriously considering changing schools because of the incredibly rough kids in my DDs class. Constant fighting, pushing, shoving, back talk, rude behavior, aggression, chaos etc... It's not one kid - it's several. And, my kids suffer for it.

I'm tired of my kid being told she's going to get killed because she walked in front of a ball. I'm tired of my kid being told that someone wants to "suck her butt". I'm tired of my kid having to deal with the constant outburst and disruptions from some of the boys in her class. I'm tired of my kid struggling to concentrate on her tests because of disruptive, disrespectful children.

The teacher tries and tries and tries but seriously, it seems like their hands are tied. They are so limited in what they can do.

I get that the root cause needs to be figured out but, at what cost? And who is responsible for figuring out the root cause? The parents? They don't care. At least not the ones I'm dealing with in my class. They drop their kids off and expect that the teacher will just handle it. The teacher can't handle it - she's got 22 students. So, does the kid spend his entire day at the principal's office? What is the answer? I don't know. But, I do know that something has to be done so that ALL children are safe at school.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

agreed.

I also find the posts that say things like "if it were my child I would just...." kinda of annoying. I know that it's easy to think that you have all the answers and are the perfect parent, but the reality is that if you had a child with mental health issues or neurological issues etc., you'd be as lost as the rest of us.

The behavoir described is common for boys with the same dx as my DD. She has never acted like that, but knowing that common parenting practices have no effect on her quirks what so ever and that some times her behavoir looks like bad parenting rather than autism leaves me with a great deal of compassion for the kids and parents dealing with this.

I agree that it isn't OK to allow this behavoir to continue and that ALL children have a right to be safe at school, I just think that figuring out a real solution is very difficult. You have to figure out the root cause first.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by amcal

So, who figures out the root cause?

I'm asking because we're seriously considering changing schools because of the incredibly rough kids in my DDs class. Constant fighting, pushing, shoving, back talk, rude behavior, aggression, chaos etc... It's not one kid - it's several. And, my kids suffer for it.

I'm tired of my kid being told she's going to get killed because she walked in front of a ball. I'm tired of my kid being told that someone wants to "suck her butt". I'm tired of my kid having to deal with the constant outburst and disruptions from some of the boys in her class. I'm tired of my kid struggling to concentrate on her tests because of disruptive, disrespectful children.

The teacher tries and tries and tries but seriously, it seems like their hands are tied. They are so limited in what they can do.

I get that the root cause needs to be figured out but, at what cost? And who is responsible for figuring out the root cause? The parents? They don't care. At least not the ones I'm dealing with in my class. They drop their kids off and expect that the teacher will just handle it. The teacher can't handle it - she's got 22 students. So, does the kid spend his entire day at the principal's office? What is the answer? I don't know. But, I do know that something has to be done so that ALL children are safe at school.

What you're describing sounds like bullying and it's an environmental problem that the whole school needs to address, not one teacher alone. I would go to the administration and if they didn't act I would go to the district - for the sake of every kid in that school, including the bullies. The long term outcomes for bullies are not positive so it's in every kids best interest to stop these behaviours.

As for who is responsible to figure out what the root issue is, society is set up that it is the parent's and where they won't or can't, it's the school's responsibility. In most N.American jurisdictions part of the funding to schools includes resources to address extra learning needs, counselling, assessment etc. Where it's way out of norm stuff, hospitals and specialized services are there to provide additional services. Unfortunately, this is largely under funded and more importantly, the system is fractured and difficult to navigate, both for parents and teachers/school staff.

I would move my kids in a heartbeat if I had worked with the school to address issues of chronic physical and verbal assault. To me, this is different from a kid in the class with impulse control issues who intermittently and at random hurts a peer. That's about an individual kid, but what you're describing is about the school culture.

ETA: we just started at a new school this year and I informed the school that my kids were hearing really inappropriate language and that DD was being touched inappropriately. It was all happening in ways that the teachers/admin were unaware. It was dealt with and there are no issues now. I initially felt helpless and appalled and I cannot believe how it's turned around.

[mattemma04]

Ds was bothered again on Thursday.So much for the teacher talking to him.Nothing very serious,but he was a bear all day at home as a result.Debated the letter to the admin,but opted to tell her yesterday at am drop off.Let her know this has been going on all year,teachers know about it,and school atmosphere is resulting in lingering poor behavior at home for ds.

If it happens again I will file a letter of complaint. And another.And another.I don't know what to do other than that.I want to go and yell at the boy.Call his parents and yell at them.I know it will just get me in trouble, AND I bet the boy will be back to his usual behavior anyway.

Ds doesn't want to be pulled out which is my solution.Ya,it may be running from the problem,but it really is the only solution when you can not get another person to change THEIR behavior.. If next year is worse I will want to pull him out since there is no other option.I could do it and get money back.

Missing the classmates he likes will be more of an issue than the money.I have found there is little to no contact with kids outside of school.That is annoying,but I understand everyone has their own activities, groups, and friends.

[Maggie05]

Originally Posted by jen in co

I'm sure this partially directed at my post from about separating the child:



No one is saying that kids who are having self control issues are throw away kids...nor is anyone saying they should be removed permanently. But, if a child is unable to control themselves (e.g. can't stop touching others, talking, etc), I think having that child sit separately helps both kids -- the kid being bothered and the kid having self control issues.

My kids go to a highly academic local public school...despite what I think is way too much seat work for 5 and 6 year old kids, the kids are allowed to get up and move around and aren't forced to sit still for long periods. They get plenty of recess (AM, Lunch and PM), specials, etc. The teacher also knows for some kids that they need to stand while they work (instead of sitting down) and is very flexible. Having said that, occasionally a kid needs to be separated for a short period of time...normally not for the whole day (just for seat work times) and then only for a few days to a week or so. The teacher uses no Red, Green, Yellow stuff and really seems to practice GD. She works with the kids for a while before resorting to separation, but at some point, she has an obligation to the "victim" kid too (I'm not saying these kids are being subjected to anything too serious, but what happens does make it difficult for them to get their work done) to provide an environment where they can learn effectively.

Sorry if this seems like a rant...I get that many kids go through periods with self control issues and it doesn't mean that they're throw away kids, but I also think that their behavior can't be allowed to continuously disrupt learning for those who aren't having self control issues. A PP asked what you would have done and I was just relating what happens at our school. I feel for the parents of the kids who are having these issues...it can't be fun and I always try to give the benefit of the doubt and assume they're doing everything they can to manage the situation, but either way, it's a tough situation.

I heartily agree with all of this.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by joensally

and kids like DS are reactive - overstimulated and they push.

Sounds like my DD. She's maturing now but, oh man. I have walked that road.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by joensally

This thread has been bothering me for days. This attitude that children with behaviour issues are throw away kids, which is how it sounds when posters say "nope, wouldn't stand for it, they just need to make the problem go away." Not directed at WantRice or the OP.

THANK YOU I find this attitude comes up a lot in threads like this...along with de-personalizing the children by using words like 'bully' (actually, they're children) or making assumptions about the terrible background they must come from

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by joensally

My son's class happens to have a number of boys with self-control issues. It's been very interesting this year observing the struggles of the teachers to deal with these boys. My observation is that isolation did not work with any of them - if a kid really can't control himself consistently, his desk being separated only works to stop the behaviour while he's sitting there.

My observation of boys DD went to school with is that they really mellowed out by gr4-5 and that teachers spent a lot of time mad at them up until then. The teachers in DS's class seem to use a multiplicity of approaches to support these kids to learn new strategies, and I'd say I've seen slow changes with these boys over this year but they're still struggling.

I really feel sorry for boys in school these days.

[amcal]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

THANK YOU I find this attitude comes up a lot in threads like this...along with de-personalizing the children by using words like 'bully' (actually, they're children) or making assumptions about the terrible background they must come from

I'm assuming this is directed at me since I'm the only one who referred to the parents not caring.

If you read what I said, I said "the ones I'm dealing with in my class". I did not generalize that all parents of children with behavioral issues are not involved. But, the ones in my daughters class are completely uninvolved. I'm in the class all the time. I see what parents are involved and what parents aren't. The kids with the worst problems? No parents involved.

The kid can hit, curse, jump the fence, never turn in homework, refuse to take his tests and the parents are called and called and nothing. This particular kid I'm thinking about hasn't progressed one iota the entire year. I know - I do the grading and recording.

My heart aches for these kids. Truly it does. And I don't just toss that out casually. I truly feel bad for them. But, I also feel bad for my kids who struggle to concentrate in class because of these kids. I feel badly for my children who have to hear their foul language, outbursts, who have constant time taken away from teaching to deal with other children's constant behavior issues, who don't get their questions answered or their needs met because the teacher spends the majority of her time with the kids with behavior issues.

I'm not saying these kids are throw away kids nor am I saying I know the answer but, what's happening now isn't working for anyone.

[lauren]

Many times children with impulse control problems can't control themselves or they would. Many times they feel terrible afterwards. So a teacher talking to the child has little to no effect on behavior on another day. Sounds possibly like untreated ADHD, which is very difficult to manage. Even children from "good homes" can have ADHD that makes it very difficult for them to behavior appropriately in some settings. The more people there are, the more dysregulated they become because there is too much stimulation.

I am curious how the opinions would change if it was a public school, not a school in which tuition was paid. Is there more acceptance of behavior at public institutions than there is in a private setting? I'm curious because I've never really thought of this before.

[amcal]

I think the schools discussed in this thread are public schools. Well, actually, ours is a charter school.

This is actually why I'm thinking about pulling my kids and putting them in a private school. This behavior is absolutely not tolerated. At least not in the private schools we've interviewed. They seem to take this sort of thing much more seriously and, at least in the last school we toured, they made it very clear that attending their school was a privilege and not a right and that this type of behavior would not be tolerated.

They said that if they had children with behavioral issues, they expected serious parental involvement and if the behavior did not change, the child would be asked to leave.

So, to answer your question, I don't think it would be tolerated at all because it doesn't have to be. It has to be tolerated to a much greater extent in a public school.

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by joensally

This thread has been bothering me for days. This attitude that children with behaviour issues are throw away kids, which is how it sounds when posters say "nope, wouldn't stand for it, they just need to make the problem go away." Not directed at WantRice or the OP.

I don't believe in "throw away kids". Every child has value in my book, and should be treated and educated in the best way for them. But I also have to agree with the op. It's not ok. I understand that some children have special needs and considerations, and I agree that those need to be addressed so they can flourish and thrive along with the other children. However, it's not my child's job to be a punching bag either. When DS was in preschool they had a child transfer in for a while. This child randomly went around targeting other children, hitting and kicking, all day long. This child needed help, which he eventually received and I sincerely hope that he is thriving today. My son, on the other hand, ended up with nightmares for a couple of months and it took weeks until he stopped being jumpy. Three years later he still mentions it on occasion.

There's no doubt it's a TOUGH situation - it can take time to find a plan that works well for a child with special needs, but in the meantime it's not right to make the other children suffer and struggle in class. As a parent I can (and do) have unlimited sympathy and understanding for the other children in my kids classes, but at the end of the day, it's the little ones that come home with me that I'm responsible for looking out for, and if they're suffering physical or mental anguish repeatedly because of another child in their class, then I have to address it. If teaching my children ways to be emphathetic and methods to deal with other children isn't enough, then I have no choice but to escalate it.

Originally Posted by amcal

I'm tired of my kid being told she's going to get killed because she walked in front of a ball. I'm tired of my kid being told that someone wants to "suck her butt". I'm tired of my kid having to deal with the constant outburst and disruptions from some of the boys in her class. I'm tired of my kid struggling to concentrate on her tests because of disruptive, disrespectful children.

No way in hell I would tolerate this! If the teacher can't control it (and it sounds like a pp mentioned - might be an entire school issue) then I'd move heaven and earth to find a better school for my child or homeschool if possible. That goes far beyond what I'd call "disruptive". I'm sorry she's having to deal with that!

[lauren]

Originally Posted by amcal

I think the schools discussed in this thread are public schools. Well, actually, ours is a charter school.

This is actually why I'm thinking about pulling my kids and putting them in a private school. This behavior is absolutely not tolerated. At least not in the private schools we've interviewed. They seem to take this sort of thing much more seriously and, at least in the last school we toured, they made it very clear that attending their school was a privilege and not a right and that this type of behavior would not be tolerated.

They said that if they had children with behavioral issues, they expected serious parental involvement and if the behavior did not change, the child would be asked to leave.

So, to answer your question, I don't think it would be tolerated at all because it doesn't have to be. It has to be tolerated to a much greater extent in a public school.

That is interesting. So you think that public schools have been forced to develop good policies and procedures around these things because of having to deal with it so much?Also I wonder if schools have already been through the threatened lawsuits (or the real lawsuits at a cost)? They also have more resources available to them, since federal law mandates that they address learning difficulties, and disruptive behavior can be a learning difficulty, since it is getting in the way of learning. At least at the district level they have access to psychologists and other specialists that can evaluate and make recommendations.

[amcal]

Actually, I don't think public schools have developed good policies and procedures to deal with these children.

At least not in my experience.

From what I've seen, these children are tolerated but not treated. Not all children with disruptive behaviors have learning disabilities so the school seems to just attempt to deal with the disruptive behavior by punishing and separating but, other than that, I haven't seen much in regards to formal treatment.

[Diane B]

So actually, my kindergarten daughter did get punched in the head, hard enough to go to the nurse's office, during circle time. This was from a child who, to put it mildly, has impulse control issues. But overall, my daughter liked (and likes) school, and the classroom environment is generally ok.

So what I did was this. First, I listened to and cried with and empathized with my daughter. I also talked with the teacher to get her version of events, especially the child's motivation (which was an impulsive attention-seeking one, not an aggressive one, in her opinion.) I found out that there were consequences for the child (yes, he had to visit the dreaded "behavior room" for a while and his parents were informed.) And I actually tried very hard inside to not dislike this child. I reminded myself that he was someone's beloved son, and there but for the grace of...

And then I asked my daughter, "What would make you feel safe and happy in school?" She decided that she simply did not want to sit next to this kid anymore. We went in together and I stood beside her while she asked her teacher for permission to move her seat. Her teacher said sure, and that was that. My daughter felt really empowered and listened to, and that minimized the trauma of the event.

Of course, this isn't the same situation exactly as repeated harassment or bullying, or teacher non-responsiveness, but I just wanted to share a positive story. In fact, my partner found this little boy crying in the hallway a few weeks ago because he was lost and my daughter and she got to help him back to his class. It was sweet.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Diane B

And then I asked my daughter, "What would make you feel safe and happy in school?" She decided that she simply did not want to sit next to this kid anymore. We went in together and I stood beside her while she asked her teacher for permission to move her seat. Her teacher said sure, and that was that. My daughter felt really empowered and listened to, and that minimized the trauma of the event.

Awesome outcome! Good for you, your Dd, and the teacher.

(I'm very sorry for what happened to your DD.)

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by amcal

Actually, I don't think public schools have developed good policies and procedures to deal with these children.

At least not in my experience.

From what I've seen, these children are tolerated but not treated. Not all children with disruptive behaviors have learning disabilities so the school seems to just attempt to deal with the disruptive behavior by punishing and separating but, other than that, I haven't seen much in regards to formal treatment.

My son's teacher said she had not seen a child without learning disabilities with ds' behavior issues and essentially said she was surprised to find he was gifted.

So far, the school's response has been:

• separation (actually, not enough; his teacher kept trying to "integrate" ds when it was clear to us that he could not sit at a table with others--he now has his own little table)
• endless behavior charts (does not motivate ds at all)
• punishment (ds has a "deal and move on" attitude towards this

Eventually I suggested sensory issues to the school (his teacher did notice early on that he did not like loud noises, seemed to need to put his hands everywhere and be constantly moving) but they essential ignored that.

Lately, I was thinking that I should have proposed that if they let dd be in preschool (we do not have universal) I could have spent more time in the classroom with ds who does better with a parent in the room.

Next year he will be going to a charter school that is a better fit academically; dh will also be driving him (and is close to that school) which I think will help as well.