how do c-sections fit into a natural birth framework? - Page 6

[Marylizah]

But, this website isn't technically a natural childbirth website, at least not exclusively. It's natural family living. The tagline says, "Inspiring natural families since 1976". It doesn't say "The gathering-place for women who birth naturally since 1976." If it did, there would undoubtedly be no room for a woman who had had a c-section. But plenty of women are committed to the idea of natural family living and have had, necessarily or unnecessarily, c-sections.

Television isn't natural, but there's a forum for it here.

Anyway, this is part of what I struggle with in the natural community. It's the sort of purity check-list mentality. Vaginal birth? No interventions? Cloth diapers? Organic food? No vaxes? TF diet? Wearing your baby 23.5 horus a day? GD? Unless you check all or most of the boxes, you don't get to belong, or you feel ashamed and embarrassed by your choices (or what life has imposed on you, depending...) And if you don't manage the vaginal birth or the breastfeeding, you are DEFINITELY marginalized. You have to justify, explain, apologize. It's assumed you were given bad info, manipulated, lied to. Perhaps this is true, perhaps not. It's not fun, though, to be pitied and treated as "less than".

I *am* defensive about having had a c-section. I am defensive because the overwhelming belief here is that c-section, as GuildJenn said, is the WORST possible outcome. It's not. Really, really not.

[RedOakMomma]

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl

I get the impression that she is not just referencing her personal experience, but the prevainling gist of stories both here on MDC, and in the wider birthing community. Yes, your description balances hers but by no means discounts it.

I was never trying to discount her personal experience . Please see my above post. I was trying to say that personal experiences, or gists, are not enough to say "that is the truth" or to tell a mother that "she a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who does not care about you or your baby."

Also, I think MDC is not a great place to survey for people who have positive things to say about hospitals, hospital births, or OBs. In general, it's not "in with the club" to talk up those things here. With my first birth, back in '02 (I had a different member name then), it was actually something people felt they had to talk about in special threads...something that a lot of people only felt comfortable revealing in their due date groups, but not to the rest of the MDC community. You'll get a lot of "hear hear!"s when you slam the medical establishment here at MDC, but not a whole lot when you say you appreciated the medical establishment. That's gotten better in the past 9 years, but it's still there. Just as the NBC has a hard time including c-section births, I think there is still a bit of a struggle to include hospital-birthing moms. As if we're not authentic or natural enough.

As for c-sections not being natural...of course they are. They have to be included in natural birthing, because what is the "natural" option? Death of the mom? Death of the baby? Severe injury to one or the other? If the NB community can't get their minds around necessary c-sections, and support them, then how are they going to deal with a platform that essentially includes death or injury as the only option for so many women? Is the NBC only for those lucky enough to have circumstances that allowed a natural birth and the healthy vaginal delivery of a baby? It seems kind of rotten to say "well, you can be part of the NB community, or your baby could die/be injured in the vaginal birth...but as soon as a scalpel enters the picture, YOU'RE OUT!"

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by PlayaMama

double post.

i've submitted my thread to questions and suggestions. i will link to it if it is approved.

Oh woops I was answering more personal like


We are currently working on a different way of doing Tribes and I think this will probably fulfill this need in a way that will work well for all of us.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by louis

We can always take things to extremes, but that is not what I am saying here. Major surgery is not a part of a vaginal natural birth. This is a fact. I also believe that women who have c-sections have a place in the ncb community, if they recognize that c-sections are not the desirable process. Yes they can be necessary and as a ncb advocate I agree with that. But every reasonable step should be taken to avoid them.

It's really nice of you to declare that women CAN be in the NCB community IF they recognize that c-sections are not THE desireable process.

What you don't seem to recognize is that I was and am in the NFL/NCB community and I wish I had been able to have a c-section because it was the - not "a" - the necessary intervention that would have saved my daughter's life.

In fact, I'd say if we're going to be really trite about it - I win the NCB Olympics because I persisted in a natural delivery to the point of the most natural conclusion possible in the face of non-intervention despite problems. That is, death.

And her death, while natural on the one hand, was pretty unnatural to me.

So, the thing is - I don't think you get to say whether I get to be in the community or not.

And what I find so frustrating and why I feel disenfranchised is that when people set up the "gold standard of belonging" as "c-sections are bad..." argh, we're just retreading my posts.

[JessicaS]

I think people often take things far more personally than something is intended.

A post in opposition to the c-section rates or trying to offer information about avoiding a c/s isn't an attack on those who have had a c/s just as information about breastfeeding isn't an attack on those who had to bottle feed.

I have seen a lot of situations where people trying to discuss breastfeeding were interrupted by someone wanting to insist that they had to bottlefeed. I think people should be able to discuss natural birth without constantly adding qualifiers that medical interventions are sometimes necessary. Of course they are necessary, this is undeniable. But there is no magic machine that can give us guarantees of exactly what we can do to prevent any issues, if we can prevent them at all.

My second c/s was due to a genetic condition. There is no test for that condition during pregnancy. There is no magic way of *knowing* with any certainty so we just have to jump. Sometimes being a woman takes a great amount of courage, whether that choice is to take the c/s or to try to birth naturally. If we had a magic crystal birth ball everything would be easier but we do not.

I should be able to say that having a natural birth is ideal without having to say that c/s are sometimes necessary. I should be able to say that "breast is best" without saying that formula is sometimes necessary. That just sounds like a formula commercial.

I think a lot of people here know that I was planning an HBAC which was called off because I had severe polyhydraminios and I had a planned c/s because my ds was starting to struggle.

I shouldn't have to add qualifiers that I had a c/s if I want to speak out against c/s.

We shouldn't have to tiptoe around each other all the time. People are getting angry without asking questions. People get irate before trying to discern intent. This is a community and we need to work together.

Yes, the c/s rate should be lower, that is undeniable but stating that isn't an attack.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

Yes, really.

I do believe that natural, vaginal birth is best. I believe it so much that I believe if you talk about it positively, women will figure it out. I don't believe you have to demonize c-sections in order for women to seek to avoid them. They are major surgery and they have their own risks and can have really serious impacts. These are not issues to say.

However c-sections are also wonderful things in the right circumstances.

My version of a "failed" natural birth is where decisions are made incorrectly which seriously impact on the child's or mother's health. Not every c-section qualifies for that, nor does every non-intervention.

I do find it mildly offensive that a woman's whole experience for the best birth is supposed to boil down to "avoid a c-section at any cost." That was my position on my first delivery as well, and the thing is - there are worse things than a c-section, like a dead or severely handicapped child.

There is no reason to focus on ONE potential lifesaving procedure as the worst-case "bad birth" scenario.



I think it's really nice to think that avoiding a c-section is all about a little encouragement or that HCPs "won't do" what is necessary. But I don't think the real world on-the-ground decisions usually work out that way.

At this point I really want to ask you about your background, because my experience with HCPs is that they are totally able to support natural birth until they believe an intervention is necessary. That's not a question of not doing what's "necessary." It's a difference in the definition of necessary.

When we talk about a cascade of intervention, I don't feel shamed or blamed. But when we focus simply on c-sections, I find it annoying. It's missing the point. Interventions are just interventions. The question is when.



Y'know, it's funny but I feel a bit like I've read people say over and over "I was made to feel like I could no longer be a part of the NCB because I had a necessary intervention".

Maybe the NCB (whatever that is) could actually listen to actual women about how it would help them to discuss birth intervention decision making rather than simply demonizing procedures or saying "it shouldn't be shaming for me to express myself this way." In other words, if women KEEP RESPONDING to the way you are expressing yourself in similar ways, they may not be the issue.

If your goal is to empower women then a good place to start is by listening to them.

You completely misquote me in the most egregious way.

I NEVER said "avoid a c-section at any cost." I said quite clearly that c-sections are life-saving procedures. I also said that many women want to know how to avoid them. This is where education comes in.

I also clearly said that the NCB community needs to educate women on the way to reduce the risk of a c-section, and also needs to educate women that sometimes things don't go the way you planned. But it's funny that no one at all seems to be reading or responding to that. I also said that no particular woman should be questioned about her particular birth or made to feel like a failure. And no one is responding to that, either.

If you really think we should not talk about ways to reduce the c-section rate, then frankly, I am shocked and appalled. This is a natural parenting community. C-sections are not a desirable result to many members here and we are going to talk about ways to avoid them. None of which implies that any person who had a c-section is bad or wrong or failed.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

It's really nice of you to declare that women CAN be in the NCB community IF they recognize that c-sections are not THE desireable process.

What you don't seem to recognize is that I was and am in the NFL/NCB community and I wish I had been able to have a c-section because it was the - not "a" - the necessary intervention that would have saved my daughter's life.

In fact, I'd say if we're going to be really trite about it - I win the NCB Olympics because I persisted in a natural delivery to the point of the most natural conclusion possible in the face of non-intervention despite problems. That is, death.

And her death, while natural on the one hand, was pretty unnatural to me.

So, the thing is - I don't think you get to say whether I get to be in the community or not.

And what I find so frustrating and why I feel disenfranchised is that when people set up the "gold standard of belonging" as "c-sections are bad..." argh, we're just retreading my posts.

We cross posted.

I am sorry for your loss.

[RedOakMomma]

[QUOTE=louis;15320351]I do want to point out that NICU is in the Ages and Stages section of MDC. Not the Pregnancy and Birthing section. Again, this is the split between natural parenting and natural birth.[QUOTE]

Adoption is in the natural parenting forums. And in adoption, you often use formula. And AP isn't always the best course of action for certain adopted kids...all kinds of variations on what the natural parenting community might say is "best." The thing is, depending on circumstances, what's said to be "best" isn't always a possibility....and yet our forum still exists in the MDC's parenting framework. Given that, I don't see why c-sections can't be recognized as part of the natural birthing community framework here at MDC.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by louis

I do want to point out that NICU is in the Ages and Stages section of MDC. Not the Pregnancy and Birthing section. Again, this is the split between natural parenting and natural birth.

No, that is not the intent behind doing that. NICU is in Ages and Stages because the baby is born. It is about the baby as the other Ages and Stages forums are. NICU isn't in A&S to distinguish it from NCB and many posters in NICU did have a NCB.

[Norasmomma]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Okay - I said I was done, but this one just...ugh...

Okay. That's fine. I didn't ask why you gave consent, because it doesn't matter to me. I get the feeling (and I could be wrong) that you think I'm making some kind of judgement of the fact that you consented. I'm not. A c-section was the best decision for you at that time. It was the best decision for me last June. I have no problem with someone consenting to a c-section.

My point was that I have no faith that your refusal, had you made one, would have mattered, if a doctor had already determined that a c-section was in your best interests. I was making no judgment about a woman giving consent.


I never said that your doctor doesn't care. I said that the fact that she teared up over your placenta proves nothing, one way or the other.

All I'm trying to say is that my opinion is different than yours, my c/s experience is different and that's that. It's obvious whatever I say will be countered, and I'm just trying to show that it's not a one size fits all sort of thing-that's it.

[Chamomile Girl]

Originally Posted by louis

I also believe that women who have c-sections have a place in the ncb community, if they recognize that c-sections are not the desirable process.

Ah, see there is the rub. You can be part of the club...if...you realize your experience is second class. Undesirable.

Oy Vay...

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by Marylizah

But, this website isn't technically a natural childbirth website, at least not exclusively. It's natural family living. The tagline says, "Inspiring natural families since 1976". It doesn't say "The gathering-place for women who birth naturally since 1976." If it did, there would undoubtedly be no room for a woman who had had a c-section. But plenty of women are committed to the idea of natural family living and have had, necessarily or unnecessarily, c-sections.

Television isn't natural, but there's a forum for it here.

Anyway, this is part of what I struggle with in the natural community. It's the sort of purity check-list mentality. Vaginal birth? No interventions? Cloth diapers? Organic food? No vaxes? TF diet? Wearing your baby 23.5 horus a day? GD? Unless you check all or most of the boxes, you don't get to belong, or you feel ashamed and embarrassed by your choices (or what life has imposed on you, depending...) And if you don't manage the vaginal birth or the breastfeeding, you are DEFINITELY marginalized. You have to justify, explain, apologize. It's assumed you were given bad info, manipulated, lied to. Perhaps this is true, perhaps not. It's not fun, though, to be pitied and treated as "less than".

I *am* defensive about having had a c-section. I am defensive because the overwhelming belief here is that c-section, as GuildJenn said, is the WORST possible outcome. It's not. Really, really not.

This is a common reaction among newbies. There was a fad of "here is how I am not crunchy" lists that I believe the moderators had to stop. I think it was a good idea to stop it - NOT b/c we have a purity test - but b/c of the anger it engendered, which is especially silly given that all this perceived exclusion is really self-directed. Parents make all sorts of different choices, and the goal is to make the best decisions for ourselves and what we can live with. There is no checklist or goalsheet that you are being judged by. Where people get confused is that they perceive there not being a place to discuss it on MDC as disapproval, and that is not it at all. MDC has a very clear mission statement. It is not every parenting site and that is a good thing. The mods work very hard to not water down the community here, and having moderated another site, that is very hard.

As an example: I have a lot of addiction in my family. I attend a 12-step program for families dealing with addiction. It has been enormously helpful, but there are some views in 12-step organizations with which I do not agree. But I don't go to those fora and talk about why I think they should not think the way they do, nor would I expect them to host such discussion. It is outside the scope of their forum. And a lot of it is my own self-adjustment - I am comfortable taking what I like from those fora and leaving the rest. I do not take those members perceived total acceptance of 12-step as a personal attack or a comment on me and how much of a good 12-stepper I am. I am comfortable with my choices and don't particularly care what they think.

Personally, I feed my kids a ton of junk food and I am sure that people here would be horrified. But I don't go to the cooking forum and get offended by people talking about how not eating well is so unhealthy. My personal hot topics are childbirth, bfing and circumcision. I frequent those fora. They matter to me. I belong here and don't need the perceived approval of anyone here to stay. I also try very hard not to see insult where none was intended.

[louis]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

It's really nice of you to declare that women CAN be in the NCB community IF they recognize that c-sections are not THE desireable process.

What you don't seem to recognize is that I was and am in the NFL/NCB community and I wish I had been able to have a c-section because it was the - not "a" - the necessary intervention that would have saved my daughter's life.

In fact, I'd say if we're going to be really trite about it - I win the NCB Olympics because I persisted in a natural delivery to the point of the most natural conclusion possible in the face of non-intervention despite problems. That is, death.

And her death, while natural on the one hand, was pretty unnatural to me.

So, the thing is - I don't think you get to say whether I get to be in the community or not.

And what I find so frustrating and why I feel disenfranchised is that when people set up the "gold standard of belonging" as "c-sections are bad..." argh, we're just retreading my posts.

I am beyond sorry for your loss. It is the ultimate worst outcome. Please do not jump at me because I am answering the question posed in the OP. I wish for you that you had your necessary c-section and that your child was in your arms right at this moment.
I would never tell you what community you get to be in. That is not what I am saying. However, you can interpret every statement I make any way you want. You can capitalize on certain words and decide that I am telling you where and how you belong. But I am not. I am responding to the OP.

Again, I am sorry. There are no more words.

For every statement made there is an argument or defense against it. It is all in how we perceive what is being said. Take care everyone, my hormones can't handle anymore of this discussion.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by louis

We can always take things to extremes, but that is not what I am saying here. Major surgery is not a part of a vaginal natural birth. This is a fact. I also believe that women who have c-sections have a place in the ncb community, if they recognize that c-sections are not the desirable process. Yes they can be necessary and as a ncb advocate I agree with that. But every reasonable step should be taken to avoid them.

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl

Ah, see there is the rub. You can be part of the club...if...you realize your experience is second class. Undesirable.

Oy Vay...

She did not say that your experience or you were second class. She said that c-sections are not the desirable process in the natural parenting community. There is a big difference - your interpretation takes it personally and completely distorts it.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by Galatea

You completely misquote me in the most egregious way.

I NEVER said "avoid a c-section at any cost." I said quite clearly that c-sections are life-saving procedures. I also said that many women want to know how to avoid them. This is where education comes in.

I also clearly said that the NCB community needs to educate women on the way to reduce the risk of a c-section, and also needs to educate women that sometimes things don't go the way you planned. But it's funny that no one at all seems to be reading or responding to that. I also said that no particular woman should be questioned about her particular birth or made to feel like a failure. And no one is responding to that, either.

If you really think we should not talk about ways to reduce the c-section rate, then frankly, I am shocked and appalled. This is a natural parenting community. C-sections are not a desirable result to many members here and we are going to talk about ways to avoid them. None of which implies that any person who had a c-section is bad or wrong or failed.

And you are totally not listening to me.

What I'm saying is there are ways to talk about lowering the c-section rate...and the cerebral palsy rate...and the perinatal mortality rate...and and and without making women who NEED a c-section feel like they were

• uneducated
• duped
• unnatural

To me the conversation is like:

"How do c-sections fit into NCB?"
"We have to educate women so they can avoid them!"

... if that's the answer, then that's why people who recognize their c-sections as part of THEIR thoughtful delivery feel like "well, we can't fit."

And abimommy, I have a lot of respect for you as usual but on this one I don't agree - I think there is a lot of judgement in the WAY people discuss c-sections, that is not in place when other medical interventions are discussed in other contexts. 'Cause it's a gold-standard issue.

[LemonPie]

Originally Posted by louis

There are also many references to people feeling marginalized or disenfranchised in threads on MDC, just because they had a c-section. I, myself, have not seen threads where someone is criticized for having had a necessary c-section. I have seen threads where people apologize to others for their interventions and/or c-section. I feel this is a natural emotion as someone who does believe in natural childbirth. I mourn and grieve for the loss of the desired birth, but can also rejoice in the outcome of healthy child, despite the way it made it into the world. I will never celebrate a c-section, though I can appreciate their life-saving place in the world.

With all due respect, by your own words you've never even given birth let alone had a c-section, and I see by your post count that you're relatively new to the board. Just because you haven't seen the criticism first hand does not mean that it does not exist. I find it can be a little subtle. Perhaps I'm more sensitive to it now that I've actually had a c-section, but I was definitely aware of it before I had one.

[Drummer's Wife]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

And you are totally not listening to me.

What I'm saying is there are ways to talk about lowering the c-section rate...and the cerebral palsy rate...and the perinatal mortality rate...and and and without making women who NEED a c-section feel like they were

• uneducated
• duped
• unnatural

To me the conversation is like:

"How do c-sections fit into NCB?"
"We have to educate women so they can avoid them!"

... if that's the answer, then that's why people who recognize their c-sections as part of THEIR thoughtful delivery feel like "well, we can't fit."

And abimommy, I have a lot of respect for you as usual but on this one I don't agree - I think there is a lot of judgement in the WAY people discuss c-sections, that is not in place when other medical interventions are discussed in other contexts. 'Cause it's a gold-standard issue.

These are my thoughts, too. Well said.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl

Ah, see there is the rub. You can be part of the club...if...you realize your experience is second class. Undesirable.

Oy Vay...

I don't think that is what anyone is trying to say. Having had c/s I have to say a baby coming out of a giant hole in my abdomen is actually less desirable than coming out the area that was made for babies to come out of. Also less than desirable would be a horrific tear or anything else that would be traumatic for the mother.

The difference is that the HCP doesn't insist you tear everytime because that is how you had your baby the first time.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

And you are totally not listening to me.

What I'm saying is there are ways to talk about lowering the c-section rate...and the cerebral palsy rate...and the perinatal mortality rate...and and and without making women who NEED a c-section feel like they were

• uneducated
• duped
• unnatural

To me the conversation is like:

"How do c-sections fit into NCB?"
"We have to educate women so they can avoid them!"

... if that's the answer, then that's why people who recognize their c-sections as part of THEIR thoughtful delivery feel like "well, we can't fit."

And abimommy, I have a lot of respect for you as usual but on this one I don't agree - I think there is a lot of judgement in the WAY people discuss c-sections, that is not in place when other medical interventions are discussed in other contexts. 'Cause it's a gold-standard issue.

And I would suggest that no one here is "making you feel" anything. No one has said that you made a bad decision or had a bad birth. You are entitled to your feelings, but you are also responsible for them.

You asked:

"How do c-sections fit into NCB?"

My answer: We will try to educate women on how to have a natural childbirth, while at the same time educating them that sometimes a c-section is necessary, and nothing to feel bad about.

(Which I have now said THREE times, so I think that maybe I should stop being the strawman for you.)

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

And abimommy, I have a lot of respect for you as usual but on this one I don't agree - I think there is a lot of judgement in the WAY people discuss c-sections, that is not in place when other medical interventions are discussed in other contexts. 'Cause it's a gold-standard issue.

I don't disagree I know some do judge but those people don't speak for MDC, for Mothering or the NCB community as a whole.

We do need to give each other a lot more love and support. Judging isn't good for the community and it doesn't help the message.