how do c-sections fit into a natural birth framework? - Page 8

[Norasmomma]

Originally Posted by _ktg_

The bolding is mine and This is what gets me fired up! I'll disclose that I work in an academic medical college, and received care in the affliated hosptial. For me with my failed vbac, I used every opportunity to have discussions with my HCP. He's the director of residencies in the OB/GYN department and I saw this as my chance to affect change. Now really - did I with my 10 zillion questions, or persistance with questioning policy & practice, probably not, but what I did get was a very healthy respect from him regarding my body and my decisions which I hope he continues to carry with him in his practice (I'll find out when I go back for my annual) I talked with students, residents about the choices presented, questioned their ideas of options and made them think, I complained about comments were snidely made about me jeopardizing my baby when I chose to go to 42 weeks (oh yes the dead baby card was thrown out by nurses in the clinic) and that is why we have to give the feedback to those professional - that demeaning conduct, and those fear-tactics are UNACCEPTABLE!

phew... sorry for just going off, but I needed to get that off my chest pronto

I don't think she'll ever say anything like that again. After that comment one of her clients who was also her good friend ended up as an HB transfer via ambulance which ended up in an emergency c/s while under her care. It was a situation almost identical to my own. I'm pretty sure she's changed how she'd approach me now, but I still don't really talk to her. Honestly I don't even know if she remembers she said that, I really think it was one of those know-it-all moments that many people have when they get out of school-then reality hits. Sure in the real world we would all have perfect births, but it's something that has so many variables perfection cannot always be attained-that is the reality.

[Snapdragon]

Originally Posted by PlayaMama

i really think a c-section support section would be a very welcome addition to mdc. as i said in the previous post, i'm interested in moving _beyond_ the education for a natural birth and it seems like a forum dedicated to _support_ would accomplish that. i'd like for it not to be in "healing birth trauma" because i think there are plenty of examples in this thread where the birth wasn't necessarily traumatic but that the lack of acceptance by the ncb community has been.

i know that what we do irl can also make a difference and the stories i've read here of women becoming doulas and ob/gyns as a way to make that difference are really inspiring.

this is really exciting! i am going to post this in questions and suggestions. i will link that thread here if anyone is interested in adding their voice.

I think a c section support group on MDC would be great too. when I was totally surprised by my c section, and came on here afterwards, I wasn't sure where to post! I mostly posted in healing birth trauma but not all of my experience was traumatic.
It is interesting, because I don't think anyone wants to encourage c sections- but for those of us who have had them it is great to connect with others! I feel so much more healed- seriously- just from this thread, knoing there are many others like me in this situation.

[_ktg_]

Originally Posted by Norasmomma

I don't think she'll ever say anything like that again. After that comment one of her clients who was also her good friend ended up as an HB transfer via ambulance which ended up in an emergency c/s while under her care. It was a situation almost identical to my own. I'm pretty sure she's changed how she'd approach me now, but I still don't really talk to her. Honestly I don't even know if she remembers she said that, I really think it was one of those know-it-all moments that many people have when they get out of school-then reality hits. Sure in the real world we would all have perfect births, but it's something that has so many variables perfection cannot always be attained-that is the reality.

I love your last sentence as that is exactly the away I see the birth experience and hopefully will help my clients with that mentality in their approach to birthing.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by Katie34

I think a c section support group on MDC would be great too. when I was totally surprised by my c section, and came on here afterwards, I wasn't sure where to post! I mostly posted in healing birth trauma but not all of my experience was traumatic.
It is interesting, because I don't think anyone wants to encourage c sections- but for those of us who have had them it is great to connect with others! I feel so much more healed- seriously- just from this thread, knoing there are many others like me in this situation.

I was too. I was totally ignorant of c/s information and just assumed my birth would be fine. I grew up with grandparents that were born at home and great grandmothers that remembered it.

Heck I was a nine pound breech baby with a huge head (no I won't show my baby pics I am sensitive) and my mom had me vaginally, why wouldn't I be able to? My mom doesn't really understand how I wanted alternatives but she also doesn't understand that she would have been hard pressed to find a Dr who would even know how to flip a baby in the middle of labor much less one that would be willing.

My parents were the first generation in my family that was born in the hospital and it is like that for a lot of people.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by _ktg_

Catching up on this thread and I see it took a turn, but c'est la vie.

Abimommy - Thanks for the update about tribes as I think it might be a viable solution here.

Playa - thank you momma for starting this thread and helping us all keep our eye on the ball to have a place to share, commiserate and move forward with our NCB goals as mothers

To everyone who has shared their story - thank you
So in looking back through the various posts since my last, my work hat is on and I'm trying to see what the goals from this thread could be moving forward, and here's what I've come up with:

- an area to feel support for those mothers who have undergone c/s, to have an opportunity to be listened to, to be angry (if needed) and to have support from others who have BTDT

- Encourage local communities, free-standing birth centers, natural parenting groups to begin or sponsor c/s support groups to reach out to those women who need the support (?)

- Figure out how to mobilize education efforts with all the various audiences (HCP i.e. ob/gyns, midwives, CNMs, doulas, expectant mothers etc) with regards to the c-section rate in the us and what choices, options, practices occur in communities and the drivers behind those practices

I think those are great. For me I think what I would like to see is:

- care paid to the rhetorical language used in discussing birth; not only are there real women and babies behind the stories (even the designer c-section ones) but I think it derails the NCB to focus heavily on c-sections and doesn't serve women well if they fear a c-section more than anything else. The c-section rate is significant as an indicator, but it is hardly the only one - having everyone in twilight sleep with forceps wouldn't be any more respectful, so let's talk about interventions and not just one possible intervention

- a focus on what would actually help people make better decisions, rather than dictating the outcome: More respect and training for midwives, more research, more dialogue between midwives and OBs and L&D nursing staff

- a more balanced look at risks and advantages/disadvantages of certain decisions in labour

- more discussion around "when labour goes off the rails" that does not insinuate that it is a lack of desire or planning on the mother's part

I am really glad to have this discussion even though it's been emotional for me. Thanks

[accountclosed3]

the first question i see is this--are there people who judge other's births?

the answer to this question is yes. but those people exist both in and out of the natural birth advocacy communities.

as a UCer, my birth gets judged all the time. as a person who advocates for birth choices--including UC--my opinion gets judged all the time. my intelligence, sanity, "responsibility to others" and a whole lot of other things get judged all the time.

seriously, *all the time*. it happens in the NCB community; it happens in the mainstream community. heck, it even happens among/between/from other UCers!

typically, i am told that i am dangerous, dogmatic, foolish, irresponsible, inexperienced, etc.

the next question is--does that hurt my feelings?

my feelings are my choice.

there are times when people are being mean. there are times when they are doing so intentionally, and times when it is unintentional.

sometimes i let my feelings get hurt, and sometimes i don't. it just depends upon where i'm coming from that day or moment.

but at the end of the day, i know who i am. i know what i believe and think and feel. i know what my birth experience was--and i know that no one else "being mean to me" or otherwise has that knowledge of who i am.

So, i answered the questions at the beginning of the thread--is there a place for mothers who have had and who will have c-sections in the NCB community? the answer is *yes*. is there a place for their stories and experiences? the answer to that is yes.

but no one seems to have cared about my answers, which sort of hurt my feelings. LOL (btw, i kid about that it didn't hurt my feelings and i don't care if no one else cares about or shares my opinions on the matter. )

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by zoebird

the first question i see is this--are there people who judge other's births?

the answer to this question is yes. but those people exist both in and out of the natural birth advocacy communities.

This is true, one can and will likely be judged anywhere. I think a lot of judging exists due to ignorance and it shows someone's ignorance in information or just another person's situation.

A lot of people do judge UC-ers harshly just as others judge those who have had c/s harshly.

I hope we can all feel welcome and have a place here.

Kindness is really undervalued.

[RedOakMomma]

really good points, dogretro. C-section may be a choice at times, but it's certainly not a choice in the way that circ, CIO, hitting, or vaxes are choices. Many moms choose them in life-threatening situations, or because they have no other birth option given their circumstances. To say we can't discuss it, or for you to feel like you can't discuss your upcoming birth (including the option of electing a c-section) is really sad in a NBC.

I also like what you said about it being somewhat ridiculous that the only way MDC recognizes/hosts discussions about c-sections is under the category of "trauma." I can see how that would be really upsetting, and continue branding moms with the idea that their births were somehow lesser, or disappointing, or something we should all pity.

[loveneverfails]

This discussion is really making me rethink where I fit as a "natural childbirth" advocate. Thank you all for your thoughts and contributions here.

[JessicaS]

Thank you for your input


We really define that as "csection for no reason" and "the merits of" is key there. What that means is promoting c/s for no reason. So if someone is posting "Oh having a c/s so you have the baby in 2010 for tax reasons is a great idea!" now THAT we would remove. It does *not* apply to a mom who is having complications and going though heck, that would just be jerky.

If there is something going on no one wants to judge someone harshly for making choices they need to make.

If you have a lot of feelings about it why *can't* you post about it? I think there is a lot of confusion here. I am glad this conversation is taking place because it really is helping me to see this issue a bit more clearly.

I had a planned c/s due to complications and I was at the Mothering office not long after that and of course no one judged me. I received a lot of kindness, support and love.

If I receive that treatment from the people who work with the magazine everyday then I feel I should extend that same kindness to everyone else.

There is no rule that one has to be traumatized by a c/s.

[dogretro]

The thing is, I could choose a c/s right now & I have zero complications. Since I already had a c/s, a dr. would do one in a second if I asked. I dont' think there need to be complications to have the discussion. I have not felt judged by the posters in this community with regards to my daughter's birth. Even if I did, they were not there, so whatever!

[JessicaS]

I am sorry but we aren't going to really change how we enforce that. If someone wanted to have a c/s then they could explore those feelings. People would likely present information to the contrary and we wouldn't be able to host people supporting c/s by choice.

[Norasmomma]

Quoted post removed

Thank you. I treasured both of children's births, I didn't feel traumatized by them either and I think that open discussion without judgment would be wonderful. My DD's was an emergency, which in turn caused my T incision to happen, which thus caused my having to have a RCS. My son's birth was a zen experience honestly, and even if it was a c/s is was a joyful, wonderful experience. We didn't know what gender he was, and the entire OR rejoiced with us when we found out he was a boy. They couldn't remember when they'd done a c/s and didn't know the gender. Dh and I felt that if we knew when the baby would be born, at least we should have one surprise. At least that made part of it feel magical and we shared that with these other people, and they shared our joy.

Maybe this thread will make the creators and mods at this site realize that there are members of this community who do feel like this is important and that it is a big part of many of our lives. I can only hope.

[dogretro]

Hot tempers aside, yeah, I think it would be a good idea to have a c/s sub-forum that was not trauma-specific with regards to c-sections. There are many women who have had c/s's for many reasons, as we have seen from the stories on this thread, and there are many more women on MDC who are looking at possibly having one. A place where women can gather to discuss their specific births, how it affects their view of birth/their bodies/future pregnancies/etc. Where they are able to express that they really might not want to pursue NCB next time for whatever reason (necessity, fear, satisfaction, etc) without seeming like they are trivializing NCB or having to get flak about it from those who have not had c/s's. I think it would also be a help to the women who are scared of possibly or necessarily having their first c/s & they could come and get more info. There are a lot of things you can do to have as natural a c/s as possible & not everyone has breastfeeding or bonding problems. It can be incredibly reassuring to hear that sometimes it really does all work out perfectly.

I do NOT think it would be constructive for this board to host discussions about first-time elective c/s's in regards to "designer c/s's" or whatever they are called.

[Norasmomma]

Yeah I know lots of women who've had "perfect" births and went on to have breastfeeding issues, bonding problems. For myself I had none of that, my DD did have to sit in an incubator guarded by one heck of a good nurse, who was given specific instructions to not let anyone but DH or myself be the ones to hold her. DH refused to leave me, he had genuine fear of losing me. My DD didn't undergo any medical procedures, she did spend her first 20 minutes in a warm bed and not with me or her daddy. Yes we had to wait to bond with her, but I never felt it was detrimental, she nursed like a champ, she had her beautiful quiet-alert state. Those first moments of her life may not have been ideal, but we made up for it when we did get to have our skin contact. Her birth is still one of the most amazing moments of my life, even if it was not what I envisioned, it is ours.

[savithny]

Originally Posted by Joyster

Now I get there is discussion and opinions to be had about reducing c-sections and how there are too many and how it's not natural etc. But I also think there is a time and place for everything. It's a hard topic for many people and they are opening up about their births and how they've felt they've been treated by the community and I don't think that this thread is the most thoughtful place to say something to the degree of people being too sensitive or touchy and that they just have to accept that they are not part of the community the same way. It's an opportunity for listening and building and coming together and making the community stronger, and I'm surprised in the midst of that (outside of relating personal birth experiences) people aren't jumping all over that.
.

Nicely put.

I have seen, far too many times, women's *birth announcements* of births that turned into C-sections greeted not with "Congratulations and welcome baby!" but with "Wow, didn't you try this?" and "Didn't you know that's common and doesn't really require a section?" and "Oh, I had that and I waited a few hours and baby came out on his own."

The very first post of a woman becoming a mother, or having brought a new life into the world is being greeted as a case study to nitpick, rather than a miracle in its own right, even if it didn't happen under ideal circumstances.

When the most important part of a BIRTH ANNOUNCEMENT becomes hashing out what went wrong, that's a sign that a lot of people are not paying attention to the right time, the right place, and the real feelings behind each statistic.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

I'm really disappointed that it went in the direction of "well WHY do people who have had/needed c-sections always take it SO PERSONALLY." Instead of asking the question really, why is it that our way of posting about c-sections alienates the very women we are trying to serve or include?

Maybe part of the problem is that we are not distinguishing between two different ways of talking about CS: the personal and the political. Discussing the overuse of surgery as a public health problem is completely separate from talking about an individual woman's birth experience, but the two things seem to blur sometimes.
We should support CS mothers without judgment, absolutely, but that should not preclude speaking out against the huge numbers of unnecessary CS being done. Otherwise we could never work to promote better maternity practices without alienating everybody who has ever had a baby. I had a "surprise" CS myself which I feel sure was necessary, yet I am 100% behind public suspicion of CS policy in general, because that suspicion is warranted.

Yes, CS should be seen as a less desirable outcome. It is major surgery, and if it is done, it ought to be because something is very wrong. By definition, that is an undesirable outcome. That should not be seen as insulting to women who have had a CS, or to their babies. Cardiac patients would not be insulted if having heart surgery were seen as much less desirable than never needing heart surgery.

Overuse of obstetric surgery is bad for everyone, not just natural birth advocates. When CS becomes almost routine, women who require a CS are monitored less scrupulously than if the surgery were uncommon. Mothers recovering from surgery are treated less carefully and expected to "snap back" faster, because it is such a common thing. CS gets recommended for very minor variations in labour, because it is no longer seen as a big deal. Efforts to make hospitals more conducive to an easy birth seem less crucial when a third of their patients will be delivered surgically. Attempts to establish appropriate use of birth technology become more difficult. Having a CS has made me more militant about these things, not less so.

[PlayaMama]

i think that this thread has really served a good purpose within the community to bring women together and i really think the suggestions raised here have merit.

abimommy- could it be possible for mdc to have a sticky at the top of birth and beyond regarding this issue? i think there is a lot from this thread that might be able to assist something like that coming together. guildjenn and ktg have brought up some very pertinent suggestions to reference language and how we treat each other.

also, i noticed that there have been posts removed when i was at work. please please PLEASE everyone keep it respectful and gentle. feel free to start a spin-off thread that addresses your issue. i'm trying to decide if i should start a new thread to address some of the questions raised as i know it can be hard for everyone to wade through an 8-pager

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by PlayaMama

i think that this thread has really served a good purpose within the community to bring women together and i really think the suggestions raised here have merit.

abimommy- could it be possible for mdc to have a sticky at the top of birth and beyond regarding this issue? i think there is a lot from this thread that might be able to assist something like that coming together. guildjenn and ktg have brought up some very pertinent suggestions to reference language and how we treat each other.

We are reducing the number of threads that are stickies and moving to resources instead. We aren't just stickying things anymore.

[KaylaBeanie]

It's been several pages since I posted, and I've been reading every response. Despite never having a birth of any kind, I absolutely see the stigma against c-section mamas, especially on this thread. Considering that I've never even been pregnant, that can't be blamed on my emotions in the issue because I have none. What bothers me most of all, and it is so clearly evident in this post, is the pity, especially when followed by comments like "it's okay to have a c-section as long as you realize it's not the best way to birth." What is that? That is not helpful. Why can't it be understood and respected that many moms here have had c-sections, and for a lot of women, they are not traumatic and terrible experiences. That maybe, there is no regret over the loss of a vaginal birth because the mom believes it all played out how it was supposed to.

This is why it is critically important to always support the mother and her right to informed consent, not just natural birth. It would be silly to deny that when it is possible (everything is uncomplicated and mom is prepared and ready for it), natural and unmedicated birth is safest for mom and baby. Safest doesn't always directly translate to best. My younger sister was born with no pain medication and it absolutely traumatized my mom. For her, unmedicated birth was not the ideal. I'm not trying to defend any sort of unnecessary intervention as I don't want this post removed. I am simply trying to say that there is no one size fits all for birth, and no woman should be led to feel like her birth experience was second rate.

Also, I say this as someone who will have homebirths, barring no complications. Should complications arise, I could not care less if I get a c-section, and it would still be the happiest day of my life if my child and I made it through everything safely. In fact, I would elect a c-section over induction if I ever needed early delivery. We go on about how the medical community always belittles mothers by saying "all that matters is a healthy baby and healthy mom." Well, I'm sorry, but that's true, and we should be using this saying in our community! Home birth is safest for low-risk pregnancies, but at the end of the day, I would bite off my toes if that's what it took to save myself or my child. In my opinion (as in, for me and me only), a c-section is not some bad thing. It's a reality of life, and call me over-prepared, but you can bet that I'll find an awesome back-up OB when the time comes and prepare an in-depth c-section birth plan, should I be in that small percentage.