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how do c-sections fit into a natural birth framework? - Page 9

post #161 of 260
I do want to remind everyone that posting to criticize the magazine, MDC or MDC Members is against the UA and will result in removal.

We do want a meaningful discussion but that needs to be constructive and respectful.

Please take a bit more care in wording one's posts. Try and come up with solutions rather than generalized attacks on the community.

It that sort of thing continues I will need to close this thread.
post #162 of 260
to go back a few posts when i last responded. . .

to clarify, i have no problem with people judging me or what have you. it's sort of 'normal' in a way. i understand that my perspective is "fringe." i understand that my experience is "fringe." so, with that comes a certain level of understanding that there will be some judgement.

the difference, though, between my "fringe" experience, and the complete opposite side of the spectrum (c-sections, and lets just say all of them for the sake of the conversation)--which would be the other edge of the bell curve--is that *i* got to choose, and most of those women did not. necessary c-sections are not a choice, though the absolutel right course of action. unnecessary c-sections are--more often than not--also not a choice, but either what happened to a woman, or the decision that was forced upon her in a vulnerable moment.

so, it is easier for me to accept the judgements of others. it may nto be so easy for someone who is grieving what her experience was, or dealing with anger about the experience.

it is important to recognize, though, that speaking about a political situation, there is not inherent judgement. and, when speaking with individuals. . .it is my experience and perception of MDC and the NCB community that women who have had c-sections are welcome to participate, and supported in their process with NCB.

To give an example, Storm Bride just keeps on keeping on. Here she is, on MDC, a woman who is extremely passionate about and experienced with c-sections. i do not think that she feels judged or unsupported, or she wouldn't be hanging around. i think that there are many other mothers on here who have had c-sections who feel similarly, too.

so, i wouldn't want to characterize the whole movement or the whole board as "unsupportive of women who hvae had c-sections." if anything, the movement is inherently *supportive* of women, their choices, their right to access to medical care and interventions for emergent and specialized situations, and their ability to determine for themselves what the right birth is for them.

it is true, though, that this does not "wash away" whatever women who have had c-sections are feeling and experiencing--and voicing here--that feeling of being judged, that you cannot participate, that you do not have a place or a role.

i refer back to my oritinal post. the role of mothers who have had c-sections is to continue to inform on the entire landscape of birth--which sometimes means seeking out help, and therefore interventions, to facilitate a safe birth.
post #163 of 260
Thread Starter 
abimommy- thank you for the response about the stickies i actually just read the forum guidelines for the first time and i see that c-sections are mentioned there as something to be treated respectfully.

also, i'd really like this thread to stay alive, in case i haven't said that enough , would it be okay for me to start a new one in an attempt to move the discussion over rather than letting it become an issue here?
post #164 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
the first question i see is this--are there people who judge other's births?

the answer to this question is yes. but those people exist both in and out of the natural birth advocacy communities.

as a UCer, my birth gets judged all the time. as a person who advocates for birth choices--including UC--my opinion gets judged all the time. my intelligence, sanity, "responsibility to others" and a whole lot of other things get judged all the time.

seriously, *all the time*. it happens in the NCB community; it happens in the mainstream community. heck, it even happens among/between/from other UCers!

typically, i am told that i am dangerous, dogmatic, foolish, irresponsible, inexperienced, etc.

the next question is--does that hurt my feelings?

my feelings are my choice.

there are times when people are being mean. there are times when they are doing so intentionally, and times when it is unintentional.

sometimes i let my feelings get hurt, and sometimes i don't. it just depends upon where i'm coming from that day or moment.

but at the end of the day, i know who i am. i know what i believe and think and feel. i know what my birth experience was--and i know that no one else "being mean to me" or otherwise has that knowledge of who i am.

So, i answered the questions at the beginning of the thread--is there a place for mothers who have had and who will have c-sections in the NCB community? the answer is *yes*. is there a place for their stories and experiences? the answer to that is yes.

but no one seems to have cared about my answers, which sort of hurt my feelings. LOL (btw, i kid about that it didn't hurt my feelings and i don't care if no one else cares about or shares my opinions on the matter. )
Thanks, zoebird. You are so eloquent. I have had similar experiences - I chose MWs for my 1st two kids and a HB for my 3rd. I was on the receiving end of a lot of judgment for my decision from the world in general, but I didn't let it affect my sense that I was making the right decision for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
Maybe part of the problem is that we are not distinguishing between two different ways of talking about CS: the personal and the political. Discussing the overuse of surgery as a public health problem is completely separate from talking about an individual woman's birth experience, but the two things seem to blur sometimes.
We should support CS mothers without judgment, absolutely, but that should not preclude speaking out against the huge numbers of unnecessary CS being done. Otherwise we could never work to promote better maternity practices without alienating everybody who has ever had a baby. I had a "surprise" CS myself which I feel sure was necessary, yet I am 100% behind public suspicion of CS policy in general, because that suspicion is warranted.

Yes, CS should be seen as a less desirable outcome. It is major surgery, and if it is done, it ought to be because something is very wrong. By definition, that is an undesirable outcome. That should not be seen as insulting to women who have had a CS, or to their babies. Cardiac patients would not be insulted if having heart surgery were seen as much less desirable than never needing heart surgery.

Overuse of obstetric surgery is bad for everyone, not just natural birth advocates. When CS becomes almost routine, women who require a CS are monitored less scrupulously than if the surgery were uncommon. Mothers recovering from surgery are treated less carefully and expected to "snap back" faster, because it is such a common thing. CS gets recommended for very minor variations in labour, because it is no longer seen as a big deal. Efforts to make hospitals more conducive to an easy birth seem less crucial when a third of their patients will be delivered surgically. Attempts to establish appropriate use of birth technology become more difficult. Having a CS has made me more militant about these things, not less so.

I agree wholeheartedly. A c-section, though lifesaving and necessary, is a less desirable outcome for most women. It increases the risk of many complications for both the mother and baby and so we should guard against seeing it as just another birth method, not because it is a badge of being "less than," but b/c normalizing c-sections causes problems for every woman. It is another birth method, but it is less desirable. It does not mean that the woman herself is to blame or less than in any way.

So again, I have to ask - my answer to the OP's question is "C'sections fit into the NB framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

So from those "on the other side," what is your answer to the OP's question?
post #165 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
Thanks, zoebird. You are so eloquent. I have had similar experiences - I chose MWs for my 1st two kids and a HB for my 3rd. I was on the receiving end of a lot of judgment for my decision from the world in general, but I didn't let it affect my sense that I was making the right decision for me.




I agree wholeheartedly. A c-section, though lifesaving and necessary, is a less desirable outcome for most women. It increases the risk of many complications for both the mother and baby and so we should guard against seeing it as just another birth method, not because it is a badge of being "less than," but b/c normalizing c-sections causes problems for every woman. It is another birth method, but it is less desirable. It does not mean that the woman herself is to blame or less than in any way.

So again, I have to ask - my answer to the OP's question is "C'sections fit into the NB framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

So from those "on the other side," what is your answer to the OP's question?
hi Galatea - can you clarify what you mean by "the other side" for folks to respond to your question? Is it "on the other side" of your response?
Kate
post #166 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by _ktg_ View Post
hi Galatea - can you clarify what you mean by "the other side" for folks to respond to your question? Is it "on the other side" of your response?
Kate
Everyone except for me, zoebird, louis, and mamabadger.
post #167 of 260
Basically what I'm getting at is does anyone disagree with this statement (my answer to the OP):

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

If you disagree, then what is your answer to the OP's question/title of the thread?

If you agree, then how do we educate women on how to reduce their risk while also supporting those who needed a c-section? My frustration is that I feel that there is no way to educate all women on the political level without someone feeling attacked. No one should be personally attacked for their birth and that is not what I am advocating. I really want to know how we educate all women and society in general without someone's feelings being hurt. One PP actually said that we should not try to educate women on how to reduce their risk of c-section, and I flat-out reject that viewpoint. Surely there is a middle ground?
post #168 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
Basically what I'm getting at is does anyone disagree with this statement (my answer to the OP):

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

If you disagree, then what is your answer to the OP's question/title of the thread?
I'm not sure, but I think I might have answered this way upthread.
I agree with your statement, and feel like it acknowledges much of what has been said, but I don't believe that it is complete.
I would add "Recognition and changes needs to be made about the importance of the physical and emotional environment of the birth, through supporting the feeling of sacredness of birth and first attachment experiences of mama and baby."
I had some good experiences: baby was never more than 10 feet from me. I could see him almost the entire time. He was wheeled out of the operating room in my arms and wasn't separated from me ever after that. (Although we were wheeled into the same room, with partitions, of a family just recovering from a stillbirth. It was really hard to combine the feelings of our sorrow for this family's loss, and our joy and celebration of our new life.

I knew i had a lot of support from these two particular OBs. I truly knew they cared and fought for me in those two weeks prior to scheduling my section, and I knew they were the top two surgeons in the hospital. Yet, they didn't contribute to the feeling of this being a birth. The most glaring thing, and honestly easiest changed was that they started talking to each other about mundane life stuff, as if I was under GA and it was a gallbladder surgery. I didn't need music or lights low, but I really would have preferred not hearing about their golf game. It really changed the tone. My MW was wonderful talking me through it, telling me to focus on her or my husband, tried her best to make it feel like a birth.
post #169 of 260
I think that is a very good point and falls under the category of how to support women who needed a c-section. In our advocacy, while trying to teach doctors, we need to teach them about the holistic aspects of birth. In my fantasy world, the first rotation a med student does in OB involves lots of time watching respectful births so that they don't get this idea that a birth is just another widget turned out on an assembly line.
post #170 of 260
Thanks for clarifying. I read what you wrote as needing to support a woman after the section happened.

I do think education on reducing sections is important, but it is only one piece to the puzzle.
post #171 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mammo2Sammo View Post
Thanks for clarifying. I read what you wrote as needing to support a woman after the section happened.

I do think education on reducing sections is important, but it is only one piece to the puzzle.
Good point. I should re-word it into the present tense:

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who need one."
post #172 of 260
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
Basically what I'm getting at is does anyone disagree with this statement (my answer to the OP):

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

If you disagree, then what is your answer to the OP's question/title of the thread?

If you agree, then how do we educate women on how to reduce their risk while also supporting those who needed a c-section? My frustration is that I feel that there is no way to educate all women on the political level without someone feeling attacked. No one should be personally attacked for their birth and that is not what I am advocating. I really want to know how we educate all women and society in general without someone's feelings being hurt. One PP actually said that we should not try to educate women on how to reduce their risk of c-section, and I flat-out reject that viewpoint. Surely there is a middle ground?
i think that what has caused the most harm is the after-the-fact questioning and doubting and suspicion.

i believe that education to reduce c-sections is a necessary component of encouraging women to think critically about their own care. i think that posters can educate women about natural birth choices while still praising medical intervention that saves lives. i don't feel that they are mutually exclusive.

there have been suggestions on ways to do this effectively by quite a few posters in this thread. i'm actually going to start a new thread following up with some of these suggestions as ways that we can communicate on this topic. i'll post the link as soon as i get it going, toddler pulling on my leg for attention
post #173 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
Maybe part of the problem is that we are not distinguishing between two different ways of talking about CS: the personal and the political.
This is such a great point. As a CS Mama, I want and need space for both responses to CS. I believe that taking political action to effect change for all women is important, and I firmly believe that helping other women is and will continue to be integral to my healing process.

I also need a safe space to share my story where I know someone won't come barging in swinging their battle axe. It's not important to me that that space be "CS Mamas only" but just that the space be respected for what it is: an open, respectful forum for sharing stories. I'll take up my sword & my shield in another time and another place and I'll join the battle to defend & protect natural birth, the dignity of women, and all of that.

But my story needs a whole different space. It's complex and layered and full of ambiguities and paradoxes and contradictions. I need a lot of space so that it can emerge in its own way. I find that being able to tell my story in my own words is so incredibly healing. And hearing others' stories, with all their complexities and ambiguities, and getting other perspectives is also so healing.

I'm not telling my story because I need resolution or because I want an air-tight interpretation of the events. I'm trying to make meaning out of what happened to me. I need permission for my story to evolve, to contract & expand, to simmer and boil over and cook through.

I already birthed my baby...I'm birthing my story now, so don't rush me and don't tell me how it's supposed to turn out. Just listen, join me, share your story too. Maybe we'll find that we can relate to one another, and then we won't feel so alone. Maybe our differing perspectives will help both of us move out of darkness and into the light.

And over time, with all of these stories coming together and touching each other, maybe we'll discover that there are some clear directions in which to move together, and we'll take up our battle axes and we'll go fight for what we know is right.

I think a lot of the hurt and frustration that has come up in this thread has happened because some of us arrived to tell to our stories and some of us arrived to sharpen our battle axes. I'm just not sure that you can do both in the same space. That doesn't mean that one is right & the other wrong, or one belongs and the other doesn't. It's just...separate processes, separate needs, separate spaces.

I want to express deep, deep gratitude to ALL the women who've posted here and who keep this conversation alive. Whether this thread continues or not, I hope the conversation will. I've been absolutely obsessed with this thread and have experienced some very deep healing just by being given a space to share what I feel and to be touched by others and their stories. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
post #174 of 260
Thread Starter 
ci mama- that's it. you've explained so wonderfully what the dilemma is. this is what i think several posters where trying to get at when they discussed questioning during birth announcements and the uncomfortableness of being the c-section person in a ddc.

i would hope that everyone would agree that these spaces should be respected and supportive and that questioning someone's birth experience should not be done on an individual basis but rather on a larger scale. macro versus micro.

i've started a new thread about how to communicate inclusively about birth, it's here:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1217288
post #175 of 260
Quote:
I want to express deep, deep gratitude to ALL the women who've posted here and who keep this conversation alive. Whether this thread continues or not, I hope the conversation will.
post #176 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayaMama View Post
i think that what has caused the most harm is the after-the-fact questioning and doubting and suspicion.

i believe that education to reduce c-sections is a necessary component of encouraging women to think critically about their own care. i think that posters can educate women about natural birth choices while still praising medical intervention that saves lives. i don't feel that they are mutually exclusive.

there have been suggestions on ways to do this effectively by quite a few posters in this thread. i'm actually going to start a new thread following up with some of these suggestions as ways that we can communicate on this topic. i'll post the link as soon as i get it going, toddler pulling on my leg for attention
I agree that thoughtless or judgmental "backseat driving" individual c-sections as that is what most people seem to be reacting to in this thread. I do think that we ignoring the elephant in the room, though - that in some cases, there were other options. Let's posit that every person on MDC had an absolutely necessary c-section and that I am not at all asking or questioning any person here (b/c I'm not.)

Let's use the very common hypothetical of the woman whose HCP orders an U/S at 38 weeks, pronounces that her baby is "huge, about 9 lbs - we need to schedule you for a c-section first thing Monday morning." So she has a c-section and the baby is 9'1" and now she tells people "I had to have a c-section b/c my baby was huge - 9 lbs." As a NCB advocate, this VERY common scenario is a huge stumbling block to lowering the c-section rate. These birth stories are repeated and believed and the idea that 9 lb babies can be delivered vaginally becomes suspect. No particular labor is repeatable or falsifiable, so we really don't know what might have happened in any other situation.

-Her baby might have been able to born vaginally with no problems. That was a potential outcome of her birth.

-Her baby could have had a prolapsed cord while she was at home and died before birth. Another potential outcome of childbirth.

-Her baby might have died during a vaginal birth. Another potential outcome.

-Another potential outcome was that she had the c-section and had an embolism b/c of the surgery and died.

-Another potential outcome was that she was induced to "get him born before he got even bigger" and the induction caused him stress b/c he was not yet due and he did not tolerate the pitocin and so she had to have an emergency c-section.

And so on. Each birth only ends one way, so there is no way to say for sure what might have happened in an "alternate universe." We can't go back and repeat the birth and try it a different way.

But that's where statistics comes in. We can look across a big slice of births and see that c-sections performed before labor has begun have a greater risk of a baby with difficulty breathing and/or who needs to be in the NICU. We can look across that big group of births and see that inductions performed before the mother's body shows signs of readiness have a greater risk of ending in a c-section. And so on - these are statistics that we all can know if we are willing to read. The nice thing about statistics is that it never guarantees you a certain result - it just gives you a guide as to what is more likely - you can then make your own decisions. But you will never get a guarantee.

So back to my hypothetical woman above - if we hear her story in conversation (maybe she is a friend of a friend and we are hearing it third-hand and she is not present), then what should a NCB advocate say? Does she just nod and smile, knowing that there is a chance that she actually did not need a c-section? What if there is a teenage girl there listening. If I do not say that having a 9 lb baby does not rule out vaginal birth, and that choosing a c-section in this scenario comes with risks, then I am harming this young girl. I am tacitly allowing this girl to absorb the idea that all babies over 8 lbs must be born surgically. As a member of the NCB community, I do not find this acceptable. I am seriously and genuinely asking, what would be acceptable in this situation? How could the NCB advocate deal with this?

Now what if this hypothetical woman is a poster here on MDC and she says, "I had to have a c-section b/c my baby was 9 lbs." Then what is okay to say? Now we have a statement that will live on the internet and be read by thousands of women, rather than just vanish into the air. This statement definitely has the potential to harm. What does the MDC member and NCB advocate say or do in this situation? Again, I am genuinely asking for solutions and advice from people on this thread.

If the answer to both these questions is that we say nothing in either situation, then I have to wonder if some people here would rather nothing be said in order to protect any mother from potential bad feelings. How is the NCB ever supposed to advocate for NCB, or at least, how we can do it without c-section mamas becoming angry, if we cannot address the risks and benefits of any given practice before and during birth?

Do we make a flyer about choices and risks in childbirth and post it on bathroom walls? Do we teach it in health class? Would these be acceptable ways to educate?

The fact remains that most knowledge is transmitted socially, from one person to another, in the form of stories. Humans are social animals and telling stories about ourselves and others is how we communicate our norms and values. The transmission of labor stories has a direct effect on how women are treated in childbirth and what choices we have. 50 years ago, you heard a lot more stories of 9-11 lb babies being born normally, b/c c-sections simply were not done just b/c the baby might be large. Today, you hear many more stories about c-sections being done b/c of a baby being large. It normalizes it and contributes to the rising rate, despite the fact that our hypothetical woman's c-section came with very real risks and may not have been necessary.

I think that "both sides" in this debate (and I know that at least on this thread, "my side" is small) have a responsibility to give a little something. If we are to work together to help women, we are going to have to come to a middle ground. The one overwhelming point that most people seem to agree on in this thread is that questioning any specific birth, whether to the person's face or third-hand without any identifying details, is off-limits b/c some find it hurtful. If I agree to concede this (despite the fact that it will seriously hamper our ability to lower the c-section and unnecessary intervention rate), then I ask that when people are discussing ways to educate women and/or bring down the c-section/intervention rate, that women who have had a c-section refrain from derailing the discussion with defensive statements like "But my baby really was too big to be born vaginally! Stop hurting my feelings!" If the NCB makes a huge effort to never ever make any categorical statements and instead is careful to qualify them with things like, "Elective induction increases the risks of potentially harmful outcomes like x, y, z..." then it is not necessary to see such statements as a personal attack and/or claim that no such education be done.

Perhaps MDC needs a space for c-sections that is support only, and not classified as traumatic. Then the women who need that type of support can get it without fear of being attacked, and the conversations outside that forum about NCB do not have to become wells of hurt mamas reacting defensively to statements that were never meant to hurt.
post #177 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaylaBeanie View Post
We go on about how the medical community always belittles mothers by saying "all that matters is a healthy baby and healthy mom." Well, I'm sorry, but that's true, and we should be using this saying in our community!
Well, that would probably be what it took to make me stop wasting so much of my time on MDC, so in that sense, it would be great.

"All that matters is a healthy mom and a healthy baby" would rock, if it always contained the mother's perspective. As it frequently does not, it sucks. A "healthy mom" has to be a mom who is healthy, not a mom who survived surgery without major complications and has been declared "healthy" by a third party. According to my doctors, I'm healthy. According to me, I'm not. Whose opinion counts more?

In any case, that's not what they say a lot of the time - it's what they said to me, but it's not what they always say. A lot of the time it's "all that matters is a healthy baby", which doesn't belittle mothers...it ignores them. Any philosophy that basically says, "if you're baby is healthy, and you're not happy about it, no matter what you went through or what impact it had on you, then you're an ungrateful, uncaring selfish mother" is not good for women. That sentiment is out there. Heck, that sentiment is widespread.

Some women can hear "all that matters is a healthy baby" and nod their heads. That's fine. But, for some women, it's just one more slap in the face, because is says clearly that she doesn't count. And, telling her that "all that matters is a healthy mom and a healthy baby" when she isn't healthy - and is often in the process of trying to explain that - is pretty bad, too.

I don't know if I've missed anything, as I really haven't caught up with the thread, but that one just jumped out at me. It's not up to you (KaylaBeanie), MDC, an OB, a midwife, or anybody else, to tell me (or anyone else) what "really matters" with respect to my (or their) own birth experiences.
post #178 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
Basically what I'm getting at is does anyone disagree with this statement (my answer to the OP):

"C-sections fit into the Natural ChildBirth framework as the potentially necessary way to deliver a baby. We should strive to educate women on ways to reduce their risk of c-section, while also supporting those who needed one."

If you disagree, then what is your answer to the OP's question/title of the thread?

If you agree, then how do we educate women on how to reduce their risk while also supporting those who needed a c-section? My frustration is that I feel that there is no way to educate all women on the political level without someone feeling attacked. No one should be personally attacked for their birth and that is not what I am advocating. I really want to know how we educate all women and society in general without someone's feelings being hurt. One PP actually said that we should not try to educate women on how to reduce their risk of c-section, and I flat-out reject that viewpoint. Surely there is a middle ground?
Well what I said really was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
Yes, really.

I do believe that natural, vaginal birth is best. I believe it so much that I believe if you talk about it positively, women will figure it out. I don't believe you have to demonize c-sections in order for women to seek to avoid them. They are major surgery and they have their own risks and can have really serious impacts. These are not issues to say.

However c-sections are also wonderful things in the right circumstances.
There's a difference between educating women about the very real benefits to a vaginal delivery and that a c-section shouldn't be a first choice because it has serious downsides...and educating women that c-sections are a terrible horrible thing to be avoided at all cost.

So yes, I'm opposed to focusing on c-section avoidance as the critical education a woman needs. I think women need information on ALL their choices.

In other words I advocate for a natural approach to childbirth, not against c-sections. I hope the distinction is at least somewhat clear. The c-section rate is ONE indicator, but it is not the only one.

I am not advocating elective c-sections. In fact I fought PTSD and other demons for months in order to avoid one.

I am saying that when your sole barometer of whether a natural delivery succeeded or not is whether a particular truly can-be-lifesaving procedure was done, you immediately disenfranchise people who truly needed that procedure. I think the NCB is actually missing opportunities to TRULY educate people by focusing solely on a single procedure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
I agree that thoughtless or judgmental "backseat driving" individual c-sections as that is what most people seem to be reacting to in this thread... No particular labor is repeatable or falsifiable, so we really don't know what might have happened in any other situation.


So back to my hypothetical woman above - if we hear her story in conversation (maybe she is a friend of a friend and we are hearing it third-hand and she is not present), then what should a NCB advocate say? Does she just nod and smile, knowing that there is a chance that she actually did not need a c-section?

What does the MDC member and NCB advocate say or do in this situation? Again, I am genuinely asking for solutions and advice from people on this thread.
The proper response to any woman's birth story is to listen to how she felt about it and then either empathize or congratulate her or both, as appropriate. As you yourself said, it's thoughtless backside driving to do otherwise.

It's just fine to have threads about the very real downside to c-sections, but you shouldn't be attaching that to people's experiences. There are plenty of women who share that their c-sections were difficult, recovery was hard, breastfeeding was hard, etc. You do not have to challenge other women to rethink their experience in order to serve your cause.
post #179 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
I don't know if I've missed anything, as I really haven't caught up with the thread, but that one just jumped out at me. It's not up to you (KaylaBeanie), MDC, an OB, a midwife, or anybody else, to tell me (or anyone else) what "really matters" with respect to my (or their) own birth experiences.
Amen.
post #180 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
Let's use the very common hypothetical of the woman whose HCP orders an U/S at 38 weeks, pronounces that her baby is "huge, about 9 lbs - we need to schedule you for a c-section first thing Monday morning." So she has a c-section and the baby is 9'1" and now she tells people "I had to have a c-section b/c my baby was huge - 9 lbs." As a NCB advocate, this VERY common scenario is a huge stumbling block to lowering the c-section rate.
I actually think it would be an excellent thing if the NCB community would stick to statistics and statistics alone.

Motherhood seems to turn up the 'guilt and judgement' volume to extreme hypersensitivity. Things that others say just to talk, or make conversation, or whatever become amplified, in the mother's perception, into judgemental attacks. I see this all over MDC and I have felt it in myself as well.

I've stayed out of this conversation bc I have not had a C-section (although I am pretty cognizant of the fact that there's a lot that is luck-of-the-draw about labor and I or any other woman could easily join the c/s population with any future baby). I have felt it in another area though - I ended up with low milk supply and had to work through my own feelings about that, and I was actually surprised myself at how often comments that (I know) were meant as help and support, came across to me as judgement and condemnation. And I actually have an unusually thick skin about stuff like this, I would say.

So I think it makes sense to just lay off the commentary when discussing a woman's personal experience. It just isn't necessary. I really think nod-smile-and-support is the way to go here.

Also, regarding misinformation: There is a TON of misinformation about NCB circulating right here on MDC. I can't tell you how many posts I've seen from women saying epidurals are 'bad for the baby,' result in sleepy babies, etc. This has been studied extensively and there is not a whit of literature support for it, nor any physiological reason to suspect it. Even the claim that they (uncombined with other interventions like pit) lead to higher rates of C-section seems to me not to be well supported - different findings from different studies, certainly not anything like consensus. (I think there are good reasons to avoid epidurals but 'bad for the baby' is not one of them - it's more about the mom IMO.)

Am I going around on every thread where a mom says "I put myself through all that pain so I could have an alert unmedicated baby" and correcting her? No, because that would be totally obnoxious. I think it's the same when you talk about C/S. I just think that personal conversations about individual experiences are not the place for political evangelizing. That can still be done, and done effectively, in a general way.
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