how do c-sections fit into a natural birth framework? - Page 11

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Kelly1101

Huh, that's another angle that I had never thought of-- and perhaps is part of the "healthy mama" idea in a way-- I don't think that the "healthy mama" part of the equation should end when the pregnancy ends. Post-partum support is just as much a part of it and just as important, because after all "the birth" as an experience includes the recovery, however short or long it may take.

And probably for many women, this is true, people wanting to ask questions and figure out how "necessary" or not the surgery was, may be more painful than helpful in same cases.

Ahhhh yes. And if the point is so often brought up "well, c-sections can be bad for mother-infant bonding and attachment parenting practices" well let me just tell you that being victimized and belittled can be even more detrimental for mother-infant bonding and AP behaviors. Being told you must renounce your birth experience and claim it was traumatic or less desirable by the very people who were just cheering you on days before... does nothing to increase your confidence as a mother.

New mothers are vulnerable people. Helping them become confident, strong mothers should be the ultimate goal here. Sometimes having a NCB helps you get there. Sometimes realizing you sacrificed your own ideals for the one you love most gets you there. My scar reminds me that *nothing* to me is more sacred in my life than my son.

The last thing I needed PP was to hear (true story, IRL at a NCB fundraising event) "ohhhhhh I teach hynobirthing and have had 3 painless births! Let me know if you get pregnant again so your birth can go differently." Screw you lady. How about instead of saying that you say "Ohhhhh wow, your son is just beautiful! Isn't being a mother amazing?" Maybe then I'd listen to your hypnobirthing lecture. Maybe.

[Drummer's Wife]

Originally Posted by Altair

I don't think there is any room for armchair comments on another woman's birth, period. Not when hearing a PP mother talk about her birth, not when gossiping third party with others. It's just demeaning to women to assume YOU, who were not even there, know more about her birth process than she does, her HCP does, etc.

I frankly think the harm you do to those mothers is infinitely more of an issue than the potential harm of a teenager knowing nothing about birth hearing about someone's birth experience. There are other times that she could be exposed to NCB information. It's just tacky, rude, and insensitive to *use* someone else's very personal and heartfelt experience as a mere point in your argument. And in fact you may very well turn her off to the NCB community if she thinks that everyone in it is so preachy that they would use a joyous announcement of a birth as a time to "educate."

Yes! I've been trying to figure out how to say this all day. I think the chances of hurting a mother's feelings are much higher than the chance of making a difference in a bystander who is hearing the conversation, or some women possibly lurking on a message board. And really, lets be honest, they aren't going to decide, hey, you can deliver a 9 lb baby vaginally! based on something someone else jumps in to say. Especially if it's their word against the new mother, and the OB or HCP who tells them this. In an ideal world, all women will have providers who know what they are talking about and don't push unnecessary c-sections - but again, you can be informed beyond informed, and still not get the vaginal birth you planned for.

So, I really don't think the time and place to correct what you determine misinformation is while another woman is sharing about the day her baby was born. IF she is confused, and asking for others opinions or trying to figure it out to plan for a future birth - then fine, give her what you got - but as it's been said before: there's a time and a place. If you can't discern when it's appropriate to mass educated - well, then, better be safe than sorry and not say anything at all.

There is a place for c/s moms in the NBC - and their role is what they want it to be. Maybe they become doulas or midwives, or share their story with others so they can connect and heal... what they need is support, and not education. Education is part of the answer to the question "what can we do to reduce the c/s rate?" Not "where to c/s moms fit in".

[_ktg_]

Originally Posted by Altair

Ahhhh yes. And if the point is so often brought up "well, c-sections can be bad for mother-infant bonding and attachment parenting practices" well let me just tell you that being victimized and belittled can be even more detrimental for mother-infant bonding and AP behaviors. Being told you must renounce your birth experience and claim it was traumatic or less desirable by the very people who were just cheering you on days before... does nothing to increase your confidence as a mother.

New mothers are vulnerable people. Helping them become confident, strong mothers should be the ultimate goal here. Sometimes having a NCB helps you get there. Sometimes realizing you sacrificed your own ideals for the one you love most gets you there. My scar reminds me that *nothing* to me is more sacred in my life than my son.

The last thing I needed PP was to hear (true story, IRL at a NCB fundraising event) "ohhhhhh I teach hynobirthing and have had 3 painless births! Let me know if you get pregnant again so your birth can go differently." Screw you lady. How about instead of saying that you say "Ohhhhh wow, your son is just beautiful! Isn't being a mother amazing?" Maybe then I'd listen to your hypnobirthing lecture. Maybe.

You have said my exact thoughts on this. and I agree with your last paragraph. Its odd when that encounter happens (as it does oh so often sometimes) because I walk away with when did I ask for help or invite that unsolicited advice when discussing my new baby?

Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife

Yes! I've been trying to figure out how to say this all day. I think the chances of hurting a mother's feelings are much higher than the chance of making a difference in a bystander who is hearing the conversation, or some women possibly lurking on a message board. And really, lets be honest, they aren't going to decide, hey, you can deliver a 9 lb baby vaginally! based on something someone else jumps in to say. Especially if it's their word against the new mother, and the OB or HCP who tells them this. In an ideal world, all women will have providers who know what they are talking about and don't push unnecessary c-sections - but again, you can be informed beyond informed, and still not get the vaginal birth you planned for.

So, I really don't think the time and place to correct what you determine misinformation is while another woman is sharing about the day her baby was born. IF she is confused, and asking for others opinions or trying to figure it out to plan for a future birth - then fine, give her what you got - but as it's been said before: there's a time and a place. If you can't discern when it's appropriate to mass educated - well, then, better be safe than sorry and not say anything at all.

There is a place for c/s moms in the NBC - and their role is what they want it to be. Maybe they become doulas or midwives, or share their story with others so they can connect and heal... what they need is support, and not education. Education is part of the answer to the question "what can we do to reduce the c/s rate?" Not "where to c/s moms fit in".

I like this too - c/s moms fit in when we decide to support all mothers in becoming confident mothers in their birth choices/outcomes.

[KaylaBeanie]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Well, that would probably be what it took to make me stop wasting so much of my time on MDC, so in that sense, it would be great.

"All that matters is a healthy mom and a healthy baby" would rock, if it always contained the mother's perspective. As it frequently does not, it sucks. A "healthy mom" has to be a mom who is healthy, not a mom who survived surgery without major complications and has been declared "healthy" by a third party. According to my doctors, I'm healthy. According to me, I'm not. Whose opinion counts more?

In any case, that's not what they say a lot of the time - it's what they said to me, but it's not what they always say. A lot of the time it's "all that matters is a healthy baby", which doesn't belittle mothers...it ignores them. Any philosophy that basically says, "if you're baby is healthy, and you're not happy about it, no matter what you went through or what impact it had on you, then you're an ungrateful, uncaring selfish mother" is not good for women. That sentiment is out there. Heck, that sentiment is widespread.

Some women can hear "all that matters is a healthy baby" and nod their heads. That's fine. But, for some women, it's just one more slap in the face, because is says clearly that she doesn't count. And, telling her that "all that matters is a healthy mom and a healthy baby" when she isn't healthy - and is often in the process of trying to explain that - is pretty bad, too.

I don't know if I've missed anything, as I really haven't caught up with the thread, but that one just jumped out at me. It's not up to you (KaylaBeanie), MDC, an OB, a midwife, or anybody else, to tell me (or anyone else) what "really matters" with respect to my (or their) own birth experiences.

Originally Posted by Kelly1101

Yours. Of course.

That's the thing about "healthy mama healthy baby" that may be not fully understood all of the time... there are many ways to interpret "healthy."

A woman who has been brutalized by an OB or midwife (I've read stories of both kinds of care providers reaching up and ripping out placentas for no rational reason and with complete disregard, for example) during a vaginal delivery, but heals up nicely and has no physical problems, but deals with nightmares and post-traumatic stress problems and now is terrified of having more children... that's not "healthy."

Same goes for damage, physical and mental, during c-section OR vaginal birth. Some women should have gotten c-sections and didn't. Some women shouldn't have gotten c-sections and did. And when those situations result in harm to the woman (of any kind), that birth did not reach the goal of "healthy mama, healthy baby."

It's true that the "healthy baby" part comes first for most people-- I don't think that if someone with magic powers to see the future walked up to anyone and said "You need to deliver this way, or your baby will die," that woman would say "nah, I'd rather have the birth experience I want." The problem is that no one has the magic powers to see the future. And when a care provider says that, well, too often there are stories of care providers "pulling the dead baby card" when it's a lie or exaggeration, so now we all have a Cry-Wolf complex. It's a mess.

Bottom line, yes, it's important to have a healthy baby. But that doesn't mean that you should be expected to needlessly sacrifice your health and just "suck it up." Women matter, too. And "healthy" is not what anyone tells you you are, it's how you feel.

"Healthy" is all-inclusive, both mentally and physically. Being bullied or coerced into an unnecessary c-section doesn't lead to healthy moms. Being treated badly doesn't lead to healthy moms. I've read several of your posts (StormBride) over the last year, since joining (your story has always stood out to me because of how well and eloquently you express yourself) and IMO (not that my opinion matters, since yours and yours alone is what matters) you wouldn't qualify as the shiny, happy mom who is healthy and has no excuse to complain. Your care providers ignored your wishes, didn't listen to you, and you've had some physical complications. That's why I stand by my statement, "all that matters is a healthy mom and healthy baby." The medical community might twist that by pulling the dead baby card, but that doesn't make the statement less true.

[_ktg_]

Originally Posted by Galatea

Do we make a flyer about choices and risks in childbirth and post it on bathroom walls? Do we teach it in health class? Would these be acceptable ways to educate?

The fact remains that most knowledge is transmitted socially, from one person to another, in the form of stories. Humans are social animals and telling stories about ourselves and others is how we communicate our norms and values. The transmission of labor stories has a direct effect on how women are treated in childbirth and what choices we have. 50 years ago, you heard a lot more stories of 9-11 lb babies being born normally, b/c c-sections simply were not done just b/c the baby might be large. Today, you hear many more stories about c-sections being done b/c of a baby being large. It normalizes it and contributes to the rising rate, despite the fact that our hypothetical woman's c-section came with very real risks and may not have been necessary.

I think that "both sides" in this debate (and I know that at least on this thread, "my side" is small) have a responsibility to give a little something. If we are to work together to help women, we are going to have to come to a middle ground. The one overwhelming point that most people seem to agree on in this thread is that questioning any specific birth, whether to the person's face or third-hand without any identifying details, is off-limits b/c some find it hurtful. If I agree to concede this (despite the fact that it will seriously hamper our ability to lower the c-section and unnecessary intervention rate), then I ask that when people are discussing ways to educate women and/or bring down the c-section/intervention rate, that women who have had a c-section refrain from derailing the discussion with defensive statements like "But my baby really was too big to be born vaginally! Stop hurting my feelings!" If the NCB makes a huge effort to never ever make any categorical statements and instead is careful to qualify them with things like, "Elective induction increases the risks of potentially harmful outcomes like x, y, z..." then it is not necessary to see such statements as a personal attack and/or claim that no such education be done.

I'm choosing not to address the hypo woman story, but I want to continue the discussion of the fact knowledge is transmitted socially which feeds into the larger fact of normalizing c-sections. We have to admit, its not just the birth story from a woman or a group of women, the ideas and uses of narcotic pain medication, induction methods and ultimately c-sectioning has gained normalization in US society is due to some of the "reality" TV shows (the baby story, bringing home baby) or books, celebrities & their birth stories which often do not highlight natural (again defined as intervention-free, vaginal delivery) births.

Also we need as consumers to demand and advocate for the research which is needed in birth. I'll be honest - its a b!%&$! to do human subject research involving pregnant women & neonates and to get it published (you need IRB approval) but maternal outcomes, neonatal outcomes, vbac bans and all of those concerns which need to be changed are important pieces in shaping the education and changing the landscape for our future HCPs.

[savithny]

Originally Posted by Galatea

So back to my hypothetical woman above - if we hear her story in conversation (maybe she is a friend of a friend and we are hearing it third-hand and she is not present), then what should a NCB advocate say? D

Now what if this hypothetical woman is a poster here on MDC and she says, "I had to have a c-section b/c my baby was 9 lbs." Then what is okay to say? Now we have a statement that will live on the internet and be read by thousands of women, rather than just vanish into the air. This statement definitely has the potential to harm. What does the MDC member and NCB advocate say or do in this situation? Again, I am genuinely asking for solutions and advice from people on this thread.

If the answer to both these questions is that we say nothing in either situation, then I have to wonder if some people here would rather nothing be said in order to protect any mother from potential bad feelings. How is the NCB ever supposed to advocate for NCB, or at least, how we can do it without c-section mamas becoming angry, if we cannot address the risks and benefits of any given practice before and during birth?

There are two things people learn from - social stories, and authoritative reports.

re: Authoritative REports - The first thing to do is to work hard to get the flipside to the myths that *some* OBs and hospitals perpetuate out there. Get the authoritative reports going. And to do that means being willing to take science and medical research *seriously*, rather than treating it as the enemy. Want to build a culture where that cascade of interventions isn't a standard practice? Get real evidence-based stuff out there. No "Your body won't grow a baby it can't birth." Pull actual evidence on positioning, or pelvic openings, etc.

your hypotheticals, meanwhile, are social stories. The anecdotal evidence that so many people cling to. And the answer to that? Tell your own story. Tell other stories that you know. Tell them without twisting the "I did it BETTER." Knife.

You're at someone's house and you hear that "Oh, you can't deliver a 9-pounder vaginally!" You say, "Hey, I had a 10-pounder and it wasn''t so bad! I didn't even need stitches! I think it's because I stayed upright in labor - I read someplace that squatting opens your pelvis up 40% more!"

The birth story on MDC where someone says they "needed" a c-section?
I still think the only answer to that is "What a beautiful baby! Heal fast and enjoy your babymoon!"

Further hypothetical: Someone on Birth and Beyond posts a question about delivering big babies. The *same* person mentioned above, who posted their birth story about the "necessary" section that you doubt was so necessary, posts to it, saying "Oh, my baby was 9 pounds and I just didn't progress for 6 hours...."

There, in a general discussion, you *do* share your experience and knowlege again. Don't quote the person to imply they're wrong. Don't use them as an example. But respond to the OP with your own experience. Build a library of *other* viewpoints for those future googlers to read. Don't judge, don't comment, just share your own testimony. Or if you want, refer to those alternate, NCB-supporting Authoritative Voices. "The one centimeter per hour rule is really quite arbitrary - women dilate at different rates, for example..."

But no, a sensitive, hormonal new mother who is still trying to find her way and get her bearings and establish breastfeeding does NOT need her birth story greeted with all the ways she screwed up. No way, no how.

[Galatea]

But the one thing still not addressed here, to take savithny's post as the most recent example, is if we do this:

Further hypothetical: Someone on Birth and Beyond posts a question about delivering big babies. The *same* person mentioned above, who posted their birth story about the "necessary" section that you doubt was so necessary, posts to it, saying "Oh, my baby was 9 pounds and I just didn't progress for 6 hours...."

There, in a general discussion, you *do* share your experience and knowlege again. Don't quote the person to imply they're wrong. Don't use them as an example. But respond to the OP with your own experience. Build a library of *other* viewpoints for those future googlers to read. Don't judge, don't comment, just share your own testimony. Or if you want, refer to those alternate, NCB-supporting Authoritative Voices. "The one centimeter per hour rule is really quite arbitrary - women dilate at different rates, for example..."

What almost inevitably happens is that the mom in question gets upset and either replies on the thread that I am attacking her by presenting other possible outcomes of a 9 lb baby, or maybe goes and talks about how NCBAs are so hurtful and thoughtless in how they advocate for NCB. What I am desperately asking for here is some acknowledgment that even if a NCBA advocate sticks to general knowledge, personal and anecdotal experience, and never treads onto that mom's story, the mom often takes it personally b/c of unresolved issues within herself about the birth. I see it happen all the time here and in real life. And nowhere will people take responsibility for this. Apparently, according to people here, there are TONS of nasty NCBAs out there who will take a mom to task personally, but there are absolutely NO c-section mamas who ever take a general discussion personally [sarcasm absolutely intended.]

I feel like this discussion has been entirely one-sided - that NCBAs must ignore all real-life examples of births that did not leave the mother satisfied or at peace - but that c-section mamas have absolutely NO responsibility to own their feelings and perhaps not tread onto discussions which have a high chance of upsetting them.

Maybe believing the surgery was necessary helps her recover from it emotionally. It worked for me.

Everyone is entitled to their feelings and to process them however works. What you cannot expect is that others join you in that process, especially not if it hurts others. Believe and feel whatever you want - it is your right as a human being - but when you assert that any woman's chosen beliefs about her birth are more important than anything else and that others must join her in them, even if they are contributing to the normalization of c-sections, rising insurance rates, and other consequences that directly hurt others - that, you do NOT have a right to do. I absolutely reject the idea that in order for me to have my feelings, others have to share them and agree with them.

(I am speaking from personal experience here - a long time ago, something happened in my family that had a lot of negative consequences. For awhile, I chose to blame one person, and to believe and say to others and this person that if it weren't for this person's actions, my life would be better. Though this made me feel good at first, it eventually started to feel dirty. I had to acknowledge that though he had done bad things, I made a choice to blame him and absolve myself, but that in reality, I always played a part. And my choosing to blame him had direct, real-life consequences - it damaged every relationship he had within the family, and it took a long time to rebuild. My comfortable feelings were not worth what my chosen beliefs had done to our family.)

[Galatea]

Honestly, I am done with this. I am tired of the lack of personal responsibility for feelings and choices. I am responsible for my feelings here, and I have chosen to keep coming back to try to convince people who choose to be offended by general statements, and who keep arguing with the ghost of the NCBA who was nasty to them, and then paint all NCB advocacy with that brush. But I am done. No one here is at fault for the poor communication except for the NCBAs, and c-section mamas with tough emotions to process play absolutely NO part in the poor communication. It would really be better if we never ever ever talked about c-sections and birth interventions, b/c someone might psychically hear the conversation and be hurt, and there is a fundamental human right to never ever ever have any bad feelings, no matter how we have to twist reality to avoid them.

So I am choosing to mosey on out and not come back b/c this is NOT how I want today to go.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by Galatea

Everyone is entitled to their feelings and to process them however works. What you cannot expect is that others join you in that process, especially not if it hurts others. Believe and feel whatever you want - it is your right as a human being - but when you assert that any woman's chosen beliefs about her birth are more important than anything else and that others must join her in them, even if they are contributing to the normalization of c-sections, rising insurance rates, and other consequences that directly hurt others - that, you do NOT have a right to do. I absolutely reject the idea that in order for me to have my feelings, others have to share them and agree with them.

I realize you've said you're not coming back, but in case you are - frankly, you're putting that baggage into the discussion.

Telling the truth about one's delivery, however one has understood that, is not the enemy of the NBC. If it is, then frankly, it is the NCB is that in the wrong.

[_ktg_]

Originally Posted by Galatea

Honestly, I am done with this. I am tired of the lack of personal responsibility for feelings and choices. I am responsible for my feelings here, and I have chosen to keep coming back to try to convince people who choose to be offended by general statements, and who keep arguing with the ghost of the NCBA who was nasty to them, and then paint all NCB advocacy with that brush. But I am done. No one here is at fault for the poor communication except for the NCBAs, and c-section mamas with tough emotions to process play absolutely NO part in the poor communication. It would really be better if we never ever ever talked about c-sections and birth interventions, b/c someone might psychically hear the conversation and be hurt, and there is a fundamental human right to never ever ever have any bad feelings, no matter how we have to twist reality to avoid them.

So I am choosing to mosey on out and not come back b/c this is NOT how I want today to go.

I'm sorry you are leaving, I thought you brought up some great points. On the hand, there is a fine line in promoting an idea or your feelings of where change needs to happen and railing to getting people to "drink the kool-aid" per se.

I think all of us here agree c-sections need to be discussed, brought into the open, hashed out just like any other birth intervention. Many of us bristle at the timing of when that discussion happens, which is could be said for any traumatic vaginal birth. This post/thread was to discuss where c-sections may fit into the NCB community, and how to do c-section moms fit into that community. Unfortunately this thread has taken several turns and I hope we can come back to the original topic - can it fit into the model and what can c-section moms bring to the table to benefit the community?

[CI Mama]

Originally Posted by Altair

Ahhhh yes. And if the point is so often brought up "well, c-sections can be bad for mother-infant bonding and attachment parenting practices" well let me just tell you that being victimized and belittled can be even more detrimental for mother-infant bonding and AP behaviors. Being told you must renounce your birth experience and claim it was traumatic or less desirable by the very people who were just cheering you on days before... does nothing to increase your confidence as a mother.

New mothers are vulnerable people. Helping them become confident, strong mothers should be the ultimate goal here. Sometimes having a NCB helps you get there. Sometimes realizing you sacrificed your own ideals for the one you love most gets you there. My scar reminds me that *nothing* to me is more sacred in my life than my son.

The last thing I needed PP was to hear (true story, IRL at a NCB fundraising event) "ohhhhhh I teach hynobirthing and have had 3 painless births! Let me know if you get pregnant again so your birth can go differently." Screw you lady. How about instead of saying that you say "Ohhhhh wow, your son is just beautiful! Isn't being a mother amazing?" Maybe then I'd listen to your hypnobirthing lecture. Maybe.

AMEN, SISTER!!!!

[CI Mama]

Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife

There is a place for c/s moms in the NBC - and their role is what they want it to be. Maybe they become doulas or midwives, or share their story with others so they can connect and heal... what they need is support, and not education. Education is part of the answer to the question "what can we do to reduce the c/s rate?" Not "where to c/s moms fit in".

Yes. Nicely said. A beautifully succinct response to the OP.

[Storm Bride]

hmmm....I'm back again...

I've just been processing this whole topic on some level, and thinking about how differently we (c/s moms) react to everything.

I think we can/do fit into the NCB community, first and foremost, as voices. Listen to us. We're not all the same. Our experiences run the gamut of absolutely necessary, probably/possibly necessary (prudent), probably/possibly not necessary, absolutely not necessary (at least at the time they were done...until the baby is out, a section could become necessary at any time, yk?) and of very traumatic, somewhat traumatic, not traumatic at all and of excellent physical recoveries and okay physical recoveries and terrible physical recoveries, and various combinations of good/bad initial recoveries and good/bad long-term recoveries, and levels of complications, etc. etc. etc. Heck my experiences run a pretty major gamut, all in one bodymind.

Don't jump to conclusions. Don't assume we're traumatized. Don't assume we aren't. Don't assume our sections were unnecessary. Don't tell us what we did - or didn't - do wrong. Listen to us. Living life is about growing, learning and changing. So is the beginning of life. Don't be like the midwife a pp mentioned, and assume you have all the answers, when you weren't even there.

Women who are pro natural birth, but have had c-sections, have a perspective that doesn't fit into the Natural Childbirth box, or the "mainstream" box. Learn from us. Support us. We're in a very different space than...almost everybody else...and that rare perspective makes us valuable, imo. We don't all see things the same way. We don't all have the same perspective. That's part of why we fit into the natural childbirth community...to keep it from slipping into a really unhealthy form of groupthink.

That's my two bits. (And, hey - maybe I'm just trying to turn my own personal hell into something useful, but that's okay, too.)

[CI Mama]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Women who are pro natural birth, but have had c-sections, have a perspective that doesn't fit into the Natural Childbirth box, or the "mainstream" box. Learn from us. Support us. We're in a very different space than...almost everybody else...and that rare perspective makes us valuable, imo. We don't all see things the same way. We don't all have the same perspective. That's part of why we fit into the natural childbirth community...to keep it from slipping into a really unhealthy form of groupthink.

YES!!!!!!! Thank you for saying this so beautifully!!!!

[Drummer's Wife]

wow, great post, Lisa.

[CherryBomb]

Well said, Lisa.

[_ktg_]

yes, well said.

[lotus.blossom]

YES! What Lisa said!

[Altair]

Agree also with StormBride! Listen, WE are the ones who went through it, WE are the ones that saw intimately what happened at our births. Re-telling our story for us (by picking apart whether it meets your own personal criteria for "necessary" aka acceptable) takes away our voices, which is anti-woman and anti-feminist.

No, we don't need to just suck it up and stop being offended. Yes, we are big girls and are not afraid of honest discussion. But someone who wasn't there and wants to paint our picture to suit her agenda is just not a welcome part of an honest discussion. It *closes* communication when one does this, and if your goal isn't to communicate and "educate," then what is it?

Education is a two way street here. Believe it or not, we have learned things about being a woman and being a mother and about childbirth through our varied birth experiences. If we don't have a voice in the NBC then you're missing a vital piece of the puzzle.

[AutumnAir]

I haven't chimed in here yet, because I haven't had a C-section, but as someone who learned the hard way that sometimes, no matter how much you believe in your body and your baby, no matter how educated and informed you are, no matter if you do everything 'right' - sometimes $hit happens.

I had a very traumatic birth (which I have no doubt would have been a C-section given slightly different circumstances). Before that birth I had spent months literally devouring any and all information on birth, how normal it is, how to avoid the interventions etc. I would read other women's birth stories, and in my head I would be critiquing them. See, she went into the hospital too early, this woman gave in and got an epidural, this one believed what her doctor told her. I knew all the 'mistakes' that would rob you of your chance at a natural birth, and I thought that I was immune - because I was making the best possible choices to ensure a natural birth and because I knew all the potential pitfalls.

Now, coming from there - I think the place for C-section mamas (and other mamas who've had 'non-natural' births) in the NCB community is to educate and inform other mamas, particularly that these things can happen to the best of us. Not to think you're immune as I did. (And I know many other mamas on here still do). It's easy to say things like - oh, well, I would just never cave to the pressure to induce if I went post-dates because as soon as you have an induction your chances of having a C-section go through the roof. But it's hard to understand how scary it can be when you're actually in that situation yourself. It's easy to say - I just wouldn't listen to the scare tactics and I'd refuse consent for XYZ. But sometimes circumstances combine against even the best of us - we get beat down by being bullied for hours while dealing with a very difficult labour, things are done to us before we have time to realise what's going on, let alone consent. And, of course, real emergencies do happen.

Knowing that NCB-supportive mamas have ended up with C-sections is something which can and should humble, educate and reassure the rest of us. It should humble those of us lucky enough to have wonderful natural births - it's important to realise that although you made good choices and worked hard to get your natural birth it's not all down to you. There is always the element of chance there. It should educate us all - we can all learn from the experiences of these mamas. And it can reassure us - when we know that mamas who were just as committed to NCB as us have had C-sections, then we can see that although possibly traumatic, it doesn't have to mean the end of all things related to natural childbirth.

There are plenty of wise mamas on here who have had C-sections and who still support NCB; including StormBride, who has had 5 C-sections despite doing her damndest to avoid them all, and Ms. Black, who had a number of UCs, before transferring herself to have a C-section. Having a C-section does not mean having to 'give up your NCB cred' - as a NCB supportive C-section mama you can encourage others to have natural births, you can share your wisdom and information, you can share your own experiences in the hope that others will learn from them, and by your very example you can show us that women who support(ed) NCB and had a C-section themselves *did not* 'fail' and are not 'broken'. They are strong women, just like the rest of us - maybe even stronger, because they have been through a growing and learning experience which the rest of us have not.

(Pregnancy brain means that this post is all over the shop - but I hope I've been lucid enough to get my point across.)