how do c-sections fit into a natural birth framework? - Page 13

[CI Mama]

Originally Posted by mizznicole

Anyhow, the new mw listened to the story and said, "I like what I'm hearing. I think everything happened as it should have." I felt more healing in that moment than in the last 2 years combined. I still wish more than anything that DS could have been positioned better (ie not sunny side up). But I'm finding it easier to accept that it happened. And also I am thankful because I believe the c/sec saved both our lives. I know I wasn't able to push that little boy's head out.

Thanks very much for this thread. I've been really touched by everyone's stories.

What a wise midwife!

Stories have great power. They can be incredibly healing. It would be great if every HCP who attends birth considered "birthing a story" part of their job description. How that story gets told can make such a difference.

[_ktg_]

Originally Posted by CI Mama

Here's why I think CS can be as natural and desirable as a straightforward vaginal birth & why I am an NCB advocate and why I see no contradiction whatsoever in that stance.

Reason #1: I see NCB as a process, not an outcome. It's not just about the moment the baby emerges from the mother's body, but about everything that leads up to that moment, and everything that follows it. It's not just about what happens, it's about how it happens. It's a way of thinking about child birth. It's holistic.

The NCB that I embrace is less concerned about home vs. hospital and more concerned with dignity for all women. It's less about OB vs. Midwife vs. unassisted and more about making sure that women, not institutions, drive birthing choices. It's about making sure that women have choices--real choices--and that includes having access to education and information and the personal power to choose what's best for us. The NCB I embrace is less concerned with vagina vs. incision, and more concerned with how to create a mindful experience every step of the way, no matter what happens.

So looking at it that way, there's no reason to reject any particular type of birth as "unnatural." What's "unnatural" is to treat women like mindless idiots who need to be controlled. What's "unnatural" is to focus on the moment of baby-emerging-from-body and to decide that that's what defines the entire birthing process.

I'm NOT interested in NCB that tries to determine one perfect way to give birth and fit all women into that mold. I feel like "the mainstream" has that pretty well covered.

Reason #2: I believe that we know very little about why c-sections become "necessary." We tend to focus a lot on the "chain of interventions" and "bad hospital environment" and "knife-happy OBs", and I agree that those are important things to look at, but to me that's just the tip of the iceberg. I think there are many layers of social & economic & personal circumstances that form a unique constellation around each c-section.

In my own case, I think my choice to birth in a hospital was a factor in my c-section. So was the fact that I work full-time and had limited maternity leave, so I was working literally almost up to the moment when labor began. I think the fact that I spent 15 months trying to get pregnant before conceiving might have something to do with it, as might the fact that I was 38 years old at the time of conception & birth. There was some really stupid homophobic bullshit that directly impacted my labor. And I have bone-deep personal grief directly related to losing 2 mothers. I think that all of those factors--and potentially others--impacted my experience. I think that if I had witnessed dozens of women giving birth before my time came, if I had been surrounded by unwashed humans with a free flow of pheremones (like our cave dwelling ancestors), that would have given me a different birthing experience.

In short, I think that if I were a different person and had manifested completely different circumstances around my birthing, my c-section would not have been necessary. Does that mean I could have prevented it? I have no idea.

When we try to draw lines around which c-sections are "necessary" and which ones aren't, or which ones were "preventable" and which ones weren't, we're taking a really complex issue and oversimplifying it.

I'll leave the oversimplifications to "the mainstream." I'll also let them reduce childbirth to something that can be tamed, managed, controlled & explained in neat, tidy packages. The NCB that I embrace respects that there's a big, fat Mystery at the center of pregnancy and birth and that NOTHING is guaranteed.

That's MY NCB. If it's not THE NCB, then I have no idea where I belong in this world.

So beautifully said! This is how I see NCB, and I believe in wholeheartdly!

[Altair]

Originally Posted by CI Mama

Here's why I think CS can be as natural and desirable as a straightforward vaginal birth & why I am an NCB advocate and why I see no contradiction whatsoever in that stance.

Reason #1: I see NCB as a process, not an outcome. It's not just about the moment the baby emerges from the mother's body, but about everything that leads up to that moment, and everything that follows it. It's not just about what happens, it's about how it happens. It's a way of thinking about child birth. It's holistic.

The NCB that I embrace is less concerned about home vs. hospital and more concerned with dignity for all women. I

Yes!

Does my entire pregnancy of hour long midwife appointments on my own couch disappear because my baby's head got stuck in my pelvis? Does it suddenly not matter that every single test/procedure done in my pregnancy was entirely my choice?

What about the beautiful education/evolving thought process my partner went through learning about homebirths and the sacredness of baby's first seconds, minutes, hours, days... and the importance of postpartum bonding... and the way our love deepened exponentially throughout my labor as I relied on his strength in a way I never had, culminating in the first time I ever told him I loved him, on the operating table.

How all of the years of learning about NCB helped me to advocate for myself extremely successfully in the hospital, choose the only Mother-Baby Friendly hospital in my city to transfer to, and keep my baby near me 100% of the time. The wisdom of having an amazing doula who came back to my ransacked apartment the next day and cleaned up the mess from my birth tub explosion (interesting story, resulting in 10s of thousands of dollars worth of damage to the apartment and store below us) and the mess of blood and fluids and baked us cookies to come home to... the wisdom of documenting my labor with an incredible photographer who captured 600 images of my perseverance in labor and anguish at transfer and glory holding my baby (if you want to see some of the g-rated ones, let me know!)... and the wisdom of knowing that NOW, after 60 hours, I need to transfer.

I learned a lot from being in the NCB for a decade before my birth, and it's just damn silly to say that I can now only be a part of it if I admit that my birth was a bad thing. Ouch. My birth was a tremendous thing. It was the highest of highs you can ever experience. My pregnancy was as natural as they come and my labor was as anti-intervention as possible and the culmination was a baby who needed medical help to come out. So what. I now have a heck of a lot more to offer as a doula... empathy, humility, and an understanding that I can tell you all I want about pain-reducing and coping techniques, but every labor is different and every contraction is different and you are no less of a woman for doing everything in your power to get your baby out.

[CI Mama]

Originally Posted by Altair

My birth was a tremendous thing. It was the highest of highs you can ever experience. My pregnancy was as natural as they come and my labor was as anti-intervention as possible and the culmination was a baby who needed medical help to come out. So what. I now have a heck of a lot more to offer as a doula... empathy, humility, and an understanding that I can tell you all I want about pain-reducing and coping techniques, but every labor is different and every contraction is different and you are no less of a woman for doing everything in your power to get your baby out.

Yes!!! It is so great to hear you say, "My birth was a tremendous thing." Powerful transformations come in a lot of different packages.

One of the thing I hate about statistics is that if you have a c-section your whole birth is lumped into that category. When you hear about the high number of c-sections in this country, it's probably easy both within & without the NCB community to assume that none of them were "natural".

I really think that diminishes the power of NCB and obscures the number of women who are working towards and embracing NCB.

[Collinsky]

After four awesome unassisted homebirths and almost ten years of advocating for and encouraging homebirths, my fifth baby was born (a little over two weeks ago) via C-sec... I haven't had a lot of time to get my thoughts all together on it, but there is no doubt in my mind that the queen-mother-of-all-birth interventions it was necessary in that birth. Could be that we could have avoided the T-cut in my uterus, but none of us knew going into the surgery that I had a Bandl's Ring going on in there. I can live with it even if it *could* have been avoided (which isn't something we can ever know for certain.)

I've not had a second of doubt that it was the same intuition that I relied on in my other pregnancies and births that led me to the hospital (a leap of faith since I had had a UP and therefore had to explain to everyone I saw that I hadn't had any prenatal care at all) -- and I am so glad that I listened to that and made that leap. Each step of the way my intuition and autonomy were fully respected, even by the OB. They did everything they could to use the least amount of intervention each step of the way, and were very compassionate and respectful of my choices, and even apologetic that the birth was not what we had planned. Different people along the way in the hospital affirmed my intuition and me as a birthing mother. The level of informed consent/refusal that I was offered was astonishingly refreshing.

I wouldn't say that my son's birth was "natural," because IMO it absolutely was not natural. But it was certainly the best, safest and healthiest birth for me and this sweet little boy in my arms. And, for the above reasons (respect, compassion, a true sense of autonomy, affirmation, and an underlying trust in the laboring woman's instincts) it was actually a very positive experience for me -- something I would NOT have thought possible three weeks ago.

[SublimeBirthGirl]

I can only speak for myself but my goal is to support mothers and to encourage informed decision-making without being overly invested in what the decisions themselves turn out to be.

[Drummer's Wife]

Congratulations, Colleen! Glad your little boy is here and healthy. Thanks for sharing your story. What a positive outcome (and attitude!)

[Annoia]

Originally Posted by CI Mama

Here's why I think CS can be as natural and desirable as a straightforward vaginal birth & why I am an NCB advocate and why I see no contradiction whatsoever in that stance.

Reason #1: I see NCB as a process, not an outcome. It's not just about the moment the baby emerges from the mother's body, but about everything that leads up to that moment, and everything that follows it. It's not just about what happens, it's about how it happens. It's a way of thinking about child birth. It's holistic.

The NCB that I embrace is less concerned about home vs. hospital and more concerned with dignity for all women. It's less about OB vs. Midwife vs. unassisted and more about making sure that women, not institutions, drive birthing choices. It's about making sure that women have choices--real choices--and that includes having access to education and information and the personal power to choose what's best for us. The NCB I embrace is less concerned with vagina vs. incision, and more concerned with how to create a mindful experience every step of the way, no matter what happens.

So looking at it that way, there's no reason to reject any particular type of birth as "unnatural." What's "unnatural" is to treat women like mindless idiots who need to be controlled. What's "unnatural" is to focus on the moment of baby-emerging-from-body and to decide that that's what defines the entire birthing process.

I'm NOT interested in NCB that tries to determine one perfect way to give birth and fit all women into that mold. I feel like "the mainstream" has that pretty well covered.

Reason #2: I believe that we know very little about why c-sections become "necessary." We tend to focus a lot on the "chain of interventions" and "bad hospital environment" and "knife-happy OBs", and I agree that those are important things to look at, but to me that's just the tip of the iceberg. I think there are many layers of social & economic & personal circumstances that form a unique constellation around each c-section.

In my own case, I think my choice to birth in a hospital was a factor in my c-section. So was the fact that I work full-time and had limited maternity leave, so I was working literally almost up to the moment when labor began. I think the fact that I spent 15 months trying to get pregnant before conceiving might have something to do with it, as might the fact that I was 38 years old at the time of conception & birth. There was some really stupid homophobic bullshit that directly impacted my labor. And I have bone-deep personal grief directly related to losing 2 mothers. I think that all of those factors--and potentially others--impacted my experience. I think that if I had witnessed dozens of women giving birth before my time came, if I had been surrounded by unwashed humans with a free flow of pheremones (like our cave dwelling ancestors), that would have given me a different birthing experience.

In short, I think that if I were a different person and had manifested completely different circumstances around my birthing, my c-section would not have been necessary. Does that mean I could have prevented it? I have no idea.

When we try to draw lines around which c-sections are "necessary" and which ones aren't, or which ones were "preventable" and which ones weren't, we're taking a really complex issue and oversimplifying it.

I'll leave the oversimplifications to "the mainstream." I'll also let them reduce childbirth to something that can be tamed, managed, controlled & explained in neat, tidy packages. The NCB that I embrace respects that there's a big, fat Mystery at the center of pregnancy and birth and that NOTHING is guaranteed.

That's MY NCB. If it's not THE NCB, then I have no idea where I belong in this world.

WOW. Yes. I had to quote your entire post.

I agree....

Even if it's not THE NCB, it's MY NCB l!!!

[mamabadger]

Given the comments made here, what do the PP's think should be the approach to CS, by "natural childbirth" proponents? I have always assumed that reducing the number of unnecessary CS's, and finding ways to make fewer of them necessary, was a goal we could all agree on. Is working to reduce the number of surgical births indirectly hostile to women who have had CS's?
For that matter, is it even a valuable goal? If a safe vaginal birth is a wonderful, natural, joyful experience; and a safe CS is an equally wonderful, natural, joyful experience, then I have to wonder why I should bother fighting the increase in Cesareans.

[Marylizah]

I really think the whole point of this thread, of all the comments made in it is the following:

-- it is important to educate women to help them avoid "unnecessary" c-sections.

-- If a woman DOES end up with a c-section, it is no longer the moment to try to educate her on where she went wrong, or pick apart her birth story looking for her mistakes. If a woman is well-versed in NCB info, chances are she's already doing that herself, and extra input from people who weren't there when she birthed is rude, offensive, unnecessary and offputting.

It's also EXTREMELY important for those NCB advocates who have never had c-sections to remember that 1) they weren't there, so they don't know all the details and 2) judging a woman for her experience will not make you friends or advance your agenda at all.

And, yes, sometimes c-sections ARE necessary, they ARE the only way to have a living mama and baby at the end. And a live mama and baby is cause for rejoicing, even if the birth didn't meet NCB's strict criteria for a "perfect" birth. NCB advocates would do well to remember that, too.

Mamabadger, I hope that answers your questions.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

For that matter, is it even a valuable goal? If a safe vaginal birth is a wonderful, natural, joyful experience; and a safe CS is an equally wonderful, natural, joyful experience, then I have to wonder why I should bother fighting the increase in Cesareans.

Because a whole lot of women are having cesareans they didn't want, because they have no options. If nothing else, I think we can all agree that the woman whose body and mind are going to be permanently changed, one way or another, by her birth experience should have a say. Whether women are happy/okay with their c-sections or not, they still shouldn't be pushed into them by hospital policies and uninformed consent.

Plus, even non-traumatic, non-complicated c/s do have ramifications for a woman's reproductive future that non-traumatic, non-complicated natural births simply do not.

[Kelly1101]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

If nothing else, I think we can all agree that the woman whose body and mind are going to be permanently changed, one way or another, by her birth experience should have a say.

I'm down with that.

[Shazer]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

Given the comments made here, what do the PP's think should be the approach to CS, by "natural childbirth" proponents? I have always assumed that reducing the number of unnecessary CS's, and finding ways to make fewer of them necessary, was a goal we could all agree on. Is working to reduce the number of surgical births indirectly hostile to women who have had CS's?

I think the approach should be to search for ways to integrate natural childbirth advocacy within the medical birth community. Cesareans are medically necessary at times, safer for the mother and baby at times, performed for the preferences of doctors at times . . . they do exist and shouldn't be ignored as just flukes within the NCB community. I think it has been pointed out on here that many mothers who have had c/s feel ostracized by the NBC. Whether or not this is the intention of the NBC, it is a reality for many who have gone through unplanned or planned, traumatic or happy c/s births.

Originally Posted by mamabadger

If a safe vaginal birth is a wonderful, natural, joyful experience; and a safe CS is an equally wonderful, natural, joyful experience, then I have to wonder why I should bother fighting the increase in Cesareans.

For some of us, c/s is the safest option for birth. Fighting for natural birth choices is a valiant and honorable goal. But those who have had c/s can view these births with joy or any other emotion they choose, just as women who have had vaginal births are entitled to any emotion. Not every c/s should be viewed as a tragedy. It seems the best place to fight is those OBs who turn to c/s as an easier choice for themselves and the medical establishment that has established unrealistic rules about safe birth. Again, integration between the NBC and the medical birth community seems to be a worthy goal so that more physicians trust the bodies of women instead of turning to the knife when an attempt at a vaginal birth isn't picture perfect and so that physicians and hospitals respect and trust the midwife community.

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Because a whole lot of women are having cesareans they didn't want, because they have no options. If nothing else, I think we can all agree that the woman whose body and mind are going to be permanently changed, one way or another, by her birth experience should have a say. Whether women are happy/okay with their c-sections or not, they still shouldn't be pushed into them by hospital policies and uninformed consent.

Not every c/s should be viewed as a tragedy.

This, too.

[_ktg_]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

Given the comments made here, what do the PP's think should be the approach to CS, by "natural childbirth" proponents? I have always assumed that reducing the number of unnecessary CS's, and finding ways to make fewer of them necessary, was a goal we could all agree on. Is working to reduce the number of surgical births indirectly hostile to women who have had CS's?
For that matter, is it even a valuable goal? If a safe vaginal birth is a wonderful, natural, joyful experience; and a safe CS is an equally wonderful, natural, joyful experience, then I have to wonder why I should bother fighting the increase in Cesareans.

bolding is mine as I think this is the question which was debated earlier in the thread. Working to reduce the number of c/sections in the US is a valuable goal as we all know its outrageously high.

I believe this thread has helped us to examine that the tactics used in trying to reduce the c/section rate by some NCB advocates has actually done a disservice to women by making them feel guilty, ashamed, etc. over some of their choices while in labor. Someone pointed out before women who have had a c/section could be welcomed into the NCB only if they recognize the c/section was not the right choice.

The fight to reduce the number of c/sections needs to be fought by NCB advocates along with those who have had a c/section (if they want to) as they have BTDT and can offer/give a perspective which is lacking currently in the NCB movement.

[mizznicole]

I just attended my first ICAN meeting and guess what - 4 of 5 of us began with midwifes and had to transfer to hospitals where we had c/s's. I feel not so alone now! The shame, guilt, and isolation are feelings I am well aware of as someone who "did things the right way" and ended up with the cesarean.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

Given the comments made here, what do the PP's think should be the approach to CS, by "natural childbirth" proponents? I have always assumed that reducing the number of unnecessary CS's, and finding ways to make fewer of them necessary, was a goal we could all agree on. Is working to reduce the number of surgical births indirectly hostile to women who have had CS's?
For that matter, is it even a valuable goal? If a safe vaginal birth is a wonderful, natural, joyful experience; and a safe CS is an equally wonderful, natural, joyful experience, then I have to wonder why I should bother fighting the increase in Cesareans.

The focus should be on good decision making approaching labour and during labour. I think education about the risks -- and there are serious risks -- of a c-section is fine. It is major abdominal surgery. I think it is also fine to ask about c-section rates.

But I don't agree (and if you read my posts you probably get why) that c-section reduction should get the emphasis it does as if the c-section is the problem. The problem is the pattern of decisions that lead to a c-section when it's not warranted. But a c-section itself is just a procedure, which can be lifesaving. The question is not was the c-section 100% necessary, because a) sometimes you can't know and b) to get to 100% necessary you would have to lose babies on the margins.

The question is were the labour decisions good ones.

[CI Mama]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

Given the comments made here, what do the PP's think should be the approach to CS, by "natural childbirth" proponents? I have always assumed that reducing the number of unnecessary CS's, and finding ways to make fewer of them necessary, was a goal we could all agree on. Is working to reduce the number of surgical births indirectly hostile to women who have had CS's?
For that matter, is it even a valuable goal? If a safe vaginal birth is a wonderful, natural, joyful experience; and a safe CS is an equally wonderful, natural, joyful experience, then I have to wonder why I should bother fighting the increase in Cesareans.

I am very much in favor of NCB promoting more positive birthing experiences for all women. I think the focus on reducing c-section is too narrow. When we lump all c-sections into a "bad" category we miss the opportunity to think about necessary change in a more nuanced way.

What should we advocating for? That's a great question to be asking, and those of us who have had c-sections have important perspectives to lend to that discussion.

In the world that I want to advocate for, I see:

1) The reduction of any procedure or practice that is experienced by the birthing mother as birth rape or as a humiliating violation. This would include some c-sections but would also include violations that occur during vaginal births. This is not just about the procedures themselves, but also about the quality of communication between a woman and her HCP and the degree to which a woman feels that she has choices and is able to exercise them.

2) More broad, holistic education for medical staff (esp. OBs in training) with more emphasis on the range of natural birth experiences so that they recognize a normal birth when they see one and so that c-section isn't the only or primary intervention that they're prepared to use when things truly go astray.

3) Reduction of hospital policies such as mandatory fetal monitoring, insistence that women must lay on their backs to labor, not allowing laboring moms to eat, etc. Reduction of hospital VBAC bans. In order to achieve these reductions, it may be necessary to rethink malpractice law, health insurance policies, etc.

4) Mandatory paid leave for working moms that includes time off prior to the start of labor.

5) Health insurance coverage for home birth.

6) Post-partum care for all moms that includes greater recognition of the complexity of emotional & physical shift that surrounds any birth experience. More art, ritual, storytelling, and community support for women processing the complexity of their experience.

These are the things that would have made a huge difference for me and would have perhaps even prevented my c-section, or at the very least reduced the trauma that I did feel in the weeks and months following it.

If we could achieve these things, I believe the c-section rate would go down, but more importantly, I think that all birthing women would be more empowered. I do not think that it's possible to create a world where no bad things ever happen. In my perfect world, women who have been through hell are honored and respected just as much as women who've had "perfect" birth experiences.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

The focus should be on good decision making approaching labour and during labour. I think education about the risks -- and there are serious risks -- of a c-section is fine. It is major abdominal surgery. I think it is also fine to ask about c-section rates.

Education and support of good decision making are great, but in practice they would not necessarily reduce the amount of surgery. In much the same way, pregnant women can be educated about episiotomies and told how to increase the likelihood of an intact perineum, but in practice many OB's just cut or do not cut according to their personal preference. It is not usually the pregnant women who need the educating.

But I don't agree (and if you read my posts you probably get why) that c-section reduction should get the emphasis it does as if the c-section is the problem. The problem is the pattern of decisions that lead to a c-section when it's not warranted. But a c-section itself is just a procedure, which can be lifesaving.

The C-section itself may not be the problem in any individual case, especially where the procedure saved lives. That would only apply to one procedure, outside the context of obstetrics and health care in general. Cesarean surgery as it is currently employed is a very, very big problem. It is potentially lifesaving. So are hysterectomies, but years ago, when they were being done almost routinely, they were not "just a procedure" - they were a symptom of some of the worst and most misogynistic aspects of gynecology.
When almost a third of U.S. women are delivering surgically, some without consent and even by force, the C-section might well be viewed as a weapon more often than a remedy.

The question is not was the c-section 100% necessary, because a) sometimes you can't know and b) to get to 100% necessary you would have to lose babies on the margins.

On the other hand, the risk for maternal death is much greater with a C-section; so doing more surgeries in borderline cases means losing more mothers on the margins. I do not mean to be flippant about genuine risks, but the idea that more C-sections = more live, healthy babies is inaccurate - birth outcomes do not improve as CS rates climb, and maternal outcomes drastically worsen.
As I see it, promoting "natural childbirth" means promoting, among other things, safer and healthier births. In the absence of serious complications, C-sections are less safe and less healthy, and their overuse is dangerous. It is not really possible to promote safe, healthy, "natural" birth, without also opposing the continuing trend toward more surgery. It is also not possible to discuss the risks and disadvantages of C-sections, as you suggest, without at least implying that C-sections are, in many ways, a problem; and without admitting that avoiding a needless CS is more likely to be an issue than getting a genuinely necessary one.

[ewe+lamb]

I was one of those who just thought that all would be well and I knew what I wanted and therefore c-section never really crossed my mind - i thought I was so well prepared and then the day came that our dd was to arrive, we arrived at the hospital and I had a student midwife and a midwife both were great, things were moving along, they kept me going and were so supportive and then their shift finished and a new midwife came along that wasn't so supportive and convinced me I was tired and exhausted and she was amazed that I had lasted this long etc, this went on for hours and quite frankly she wore down my dh first and then me - I caved into the pressure of having an epidural, then everything stalled and the rest is history - BUT the nurses drs etc were so kind and understanding, I melted into tears every time the dr tried to explain what would happen next, it was the most painful experience of my life, - I can totally relate to StormBride the few days after having the c-section I couldn't move, really I couldn't even get out of bed or sit up, I was in so much pain - I'm reckoning because I went through hours of contractions and then the contractions were still going on when the operation was happening then the healing process was much more difficult. I have heard many many times how we should be up and running around and be in no pain after a c-section, that there should be no pain; however when my father went in for a prostate op he was given all the meds, and sympathy possible - not that I would want the meds particularly but a little understanding can go a long way. Then I had all the breastfeeding problems too of cracked nipples, positioning, over supply etc but again the LCs and nurses were great and I had a fantastic start - or that's how it feels even with all the problems we had - the personnelle have a huge impact on how I have perceived things.

Three years later almost to the day and our ds was to arrive, I can't go into all the details it's too painful but again - another c-section, this time, it was quite frankly the worst experience of my life the c-section was appalling, the attitude of the drs and nurses, I was telling them I could feel everything and was in pain to be completely rejected and told that i didn't know what I was talking about, it still just blows me away, then the way I and my ds were treated after was absolutely disgraceful, I feel convinced that it was all my fault - I didn't fight enough, although when I look back I am amazed at what I achieved, but that still doesn't get rid of the guilt I still feel - if a mother was to come to me with the exact same story i would be so amazed by her story, however i can't stop punishing myself in saying that I never did enough to protect us both. I can't even relate the whole story to anyone nearly 5 years later, it just too painful.

I shall never have another child because of the extreme fear I now have of the 'service' which is provided, I wish that I hadn't given in with the birth of our dd because then i don't think the birth of our ds would have been so traumatic, but how to get over it - I don't know, I'm not sure I shall ever find out, I do have two fantastic children, I love them more than anything else - and that's what helps me get through the days, i give all my support and knowledge to women within the field I work which also helps but the healing, forgiveness, forgetting no - 5 years down the line - I'm just not there yet - I feel like I have been robbed of one of the greatest events that life can give.

So, i think what comes out of this is that not only have I been judged by myself and others; is that I feel society - or the one that I'm part of judges me, I feel ashamed to say that both my children were born by c-section, that i felt powerless and not the woman I felt I was or want to be; I've let myself down not only once but twice.

I listened to a mother-to-be once say that she was going to have a planned c-section, quite literally she was pounced upon by practically every mother there, after the initial pounce we stopped and listened to a horific story of abuse that she had been through; however, on finding out the correct information she eventually had a completely natural homebirth and feels that instead of being overprotective of herself that the natural birth she had has healed her more than any therapy could ever do - so there is a happy ending to her story....

Sorry my post is all over the place - but hey - I reckon you guys can get whats going on in my mind.