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how do c-sections fit into a natural birth framework? - Page 5

post #81 of 260
Thread Starter 
double post.

i've submitted my thread to questions and suggestions. i will link to it if it is approved.
post #82 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayaMama View Post
i really think a c-section support section would be a very welcome addition to mdc.
I agree, but for years members have asked - and it's not happened b/c c-sections aren't natural. I guess they consider it similar to a sub-forum on formula feeding, I dunno. If someone were to start a thread asking for one, if it were approved, maybe we could get a clearer answer as to why it won't be considered. But, yes - it would be nice to have a safe place to ask questions, work through emotions, share experiences, heal, etc., w/o others jumping in with stats or anti-cesarean info that wasn't asked for.
post #83 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
in advocating for all women to have the right to labor and birth without unnecessary interventions, it is important for us to confront the myths rampant in our society.
But you see, my experience was not a myth. And the lack of necessary intervention resulted in death. When you use language like that - unnecessary, myth - you are necessarily creating a conflict.

I know it is possible to discuss these things in less inflammatory terms, because I had a team that did just that. And what they did was they said "we want to help you have the safest, best delivery possible however things go, and less is more."

It would not take anything away from your argument to say, "how can we help L&D teams and women to engage in good decision making every time?" without assuming that it's all bad decision making out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
NO ONE is calling you out and questioning your birth. If reading about ways to advocate for natural birth or increase your odds of a natural birth upsets you, and makes you feel like a failure, then maybe reading these sorts of threads is not the best thing for you.
Okay, this is what gets me mad.

The NBC does not "just happen" to have threads that some crazy women out there find make them feel like a failure. The NBC expresses itself in a way that creates hurt feelings. A lot of women have said that directly in the last two threads I've read on this -- a start would be not treating them like they are necessarily the only communication problem.

Also...sometimes it is personal. I believe you yourself posted a thread commenting directly on someone's FB post. That women would not be overly sensitive to have thought you were pretty much holding her birth experience up as a failure. There are a lot of assumptions about people who schedule c-sections made here that I've seen. Whereas you just don't know what their stories are.

The thing is do you want to just reach people who are pristine as the driven snow and have never experienced necessary interventions and who have no feelings whatsoever in the matter?

Or would you care to invite those of us who do have feelings and negative experiences into your circle? Because I could have really used the NBC's support in going for my second delivery, but I couldn't stick a toe in a forum like this one because when it's all "C SECTIONS ARE BAD BAD BAD" and my child died because an inexperienced team bought into that... well, you've lost me. And my sister. And my best friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
But the fact remains that in general, there are things that can be done by women and their HCPs to increase their chances for a natural birth. There is no guarantee of a natural birth and a healthy baby in any birth, ever. We are just talking about the statistical risks. And this is a really important conversation to have so that all women, not just those who read Henci Goer, can have a better chance at a natural birth. We need to be able to educate women about the risks that choice of HCP/induction/etc. can bring.
I think as long as you are educating about ALL the risks, then I'm with you. But I don't often see that happening here. I see it as rebellion against the mean old medical establishment without always a whole lot of actual discussion of real statistics and real risk and so on.

(Although I do think that in all cases you are NEVER talking "just" about statistical risk; you are talking about real women and real babies. Just as Stormbride's point that for her "survival" was not the only relevant measure of her health is an extremely important one.)

Where are the stories about the actual risks of natural delivery? Of delays at transfer? of rates of cerebral palsy? Because if those stories were here too, then we could have a real discussion about why people might need intervention TOO, and then there would not be a binary sense of:

1) Natural = good
2) Intervention = bad

Because that is what becomes pretty shaming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
I beg you not to - there are always exceptions to everything - you didn't do anything wrong - emergencies happen - but we need to be able to talk about ways to increase your chance of a natural birth without it always turning into people's feelings being hurt, personal attacks, and threads being closed.
I don't think we do need to talk about "ways to increase your chance of a natural birth."

I think that statement, in fact, sums my problem with these threads up. The thing is, there are women who will have situations where they should NOT increase their chance of a natural birth because it is not going to work that way for them. There just are.

It's like saying "everyone should eat whole wheat." Well not if you have a wheat allergy!

What everyone should do is be informed about good nutrition and have whole foods available. It's an important distinction. But when you set the formula up as "good natural delivery vs. bad intervention" you are missing the complexities of women and babies' real, complex experiences.
post #84 of 260
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedOakMomma View Post
Storm Bride, , I'm not saying my experience can say anything generalized about women and their experiences, but (and I say this gently), I don't think your individual experience can say there's "a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who does not care about you or your baby." I agree with the person who posted before me last time..."I am so sorry you've had such horrible birthing experiences. I can understand why you feel the way you do, even though I don't agree with some of your perspectives."

I'm not telling my story because I feel marginalized. I tell it because I want to speak up and share...because as a first time mom, reading some of the posts here on MDC (or comments in the NBC), you might hear so many slights against medical/OB care that you think a hospital means an automatic c-section, or even a traumatic birth. I've been in four due date clubs now and I've seen it, at various levels, every time. Many first time moms are afraid of OBs or hospital care because, in NBC, they don't hear the positive stories. I'm happy to share mine, because in my experience of birthing I've met some pretty incredible doctors.

Storm Bride, I'm not looking to say that your experience doesn't happen, or that mine is more typical. I'm just saying that our own experiences are all we have to go on. I don't think our own experiences can determine what a random woman "has a pretty good chance" of experiencing. Statistics will tell you that, but individuals' stories will not. Granted, based on our experiences, we're likely to have a more optimistic or more pessimistic view of the entire process. I get that. But that's personal opinion, not actual likelihood.

As for the original intent of the thread, I agree with the very first response (which is buried way, way back there). I think KaylaBeanie put it really well, and I think a great many people here have taken it even further. Is there a way NB advocates can include c-section moms? Absolutely. And they should. I think a lot of people in this thread have come to share their experiences, all over the spectrum of births, providers, and emotions...in a way that says we should ALL be included. All of our experiences should be respected and supported, because I think we all want similar things for women and for birth--regardless of what our own births were like. "Getting" a natural birth is not all about educating ourselves, or about our HCPs...it's also about chance. Marginalizing a group of women who had circumstances out of their control, or a poor HCP, but still wanted a natural birth or believe in it? What's the point in hurting or excluding people like that? It's not right.

I shared my experience to argue against the "That's the truth" statement, but also because I think it's great, a page or so back, that there was a post from a woman who is studying to be an OB so she can be an example of what the profession should be. I shared my story in the hopes of encouraging her, or others, or first-time moms, or first-time hospital birthers in finding/being an OB that really gets it, and respects a mother's right to be a part of the decision-making.
thank you so much for this well thought out response.

and thank you again to all the women that have shared here about their stories. i feel really grateful to have been able to listen and share with you.
post #85 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
I have different standards, I'm pretty sure. Tearing up over something like that would prove nothing to me...nothing at all......

In any case, it sounds like you actually needed a c-section and possibly even consented to it. Maybe if my history was like that, I'd feel the same way. Knowing full well that if you hadn't consented, there's a good chance they'd have gone in anyway, I'm...cynical.
I did consent to my c/s....after 30 hours of labor, 3 of that pushing only to wedge my DD so far into my pelvis that she was so stuck they had to push her both up and out, yep I did consent whole-heartedly. My husband and I spoke deeply about it before my labor and both of us agreed that if it came down to it a c/s would be done, it was in my birth plan as the last resort. After a long and futile labor it was pretty obvious that was what was needed, it was after every other option had been exhausted.

Yes I think we do have different standards.....I'm sorry but I do know that my particular Dr does care, I wouldn't have gone to her or take my children to her if she didn't. For me someone showing emotion is a sign they do in fact care.....maybe I'm naive.

My experiences are just that mine, of course they will be different than someone else's.

I personally think that it would be nice to have some support for mothers who have had a C/S on MDC, unfortunately though I don't see that happening.

Playamama-thanks for starting this thread, it has been an awakening for myself. I realize that there are women who indeed haven't been as fortunate to be in a caring environment, my little hospital is a gem I am finding out. I am very happy to have had the wonderful care that my children and I received there.
post #86 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife View Post
I agree, but for years members have asked - and it's not happened b/c c-sections aren't natural. I guess they consider it similar to a sub-forum on formula feeding, I dunno. If someone were to start a thread asking for one, if it were approved, maybe we could get a clearer answer as to why it won't be considered. But, yes - it would be nice to have a safe place to ask questions, work through emotions, share experiences, heal, etc., w/o others jumping in with stats or anti-cesarean info that wasn't asked for.
The first line I think is the stumbling block - c-section is not natural therefore cannot be supported aka dismissed within MDC. Yet we find day in and day out families who are trying to live within the natural lifestyle but having to deal with "life" and all its craziness and circumstance. Through the various threads I've popped into and read, I see people struggling with what has been established as the "bar" for natural living and what life has thrown at them and the fear of being ostracized by their decisions which might not have been the natural lifestyle option, but averted serious harm, or danger like not raising your child because they would be in daycare & not breastfed, or having such traumatic guilt or fear over a c-section that was medically necessary for the mother's life or the child's life.


Drummer - I like your vision of an area that's safe for us who have had c-sections. That's what I exactly what I had in mind, it would be needing put out very clear guidelines like other very hot button forums and it would need very strong moderator(s)
post #87 of 260
Okay - I said I was done, but this one just...ugh...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norasmomma View Post
I did consent to my c/s....after 30 hours of labor, 3 of that pushing only to wedge my DD so far into my pelvis that she was so stuck they had to push her both up and out, yep I did consent whole-heartedly. My husband and I spoke deeply about it before my labor and both of us agreed that if it came down to it a c/s would be done, it was in my birth plan as the last resort. After a long and futile labor it was pretty obvious that was what was needed, it was after every other option had been exhausted.
Okay. That's fine. I didn't ask why you gave consent, because it doesn't matter to me. I get the feeling (and I could be wrong) that you think I'm making some kind of judgement of the fact that you consented. I'm not. A c-section was the best decision for you at that time. It was the best decision for me last June. I have no problem with someone consenting to a c-section.

My point was that I have no faith that your refusal, had you made one, would have mattered, if a doctor had already determined that a c-section was in your best interests. I was making no judgment about a woman giving consent.

Quote:
Yes I think we do have different standards.....I'm sorry but I do know that my particular Dr does care, I wouldn't have gone to her or take my children to her if she didn't. For me someone showing emotion is a sign they do in fact care.....maybe I'm naive.
I never said that your doctor doesn't care. I said that the fact that she teared up over your placenta proves nothing, one way or the other.
post #88 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post


I don't think we do need to talk about "ways to increase your chance of a natural birth."

I think that statement, in fact, sums my problem with these threads up. The thing is, there are women who will have situations where they should NOT increase their chance of a natural birth because it is not going to work that way for them. There just are.

It's like saying "everyone should eat whole wheat." Well not if you have a wheat allergy!

What everyone should do is be informed about good nutrition and have whole foods available. It's an important distinction. But when you set the formula up as "good natural delivery vs. bad intervention" you are missing the complexities of women and babies' real, complex experiences.
I completely disagree. Do you really think that we should not talk about ways to decrease c-section risk? Really? REALLY?

Is this thread not full of women who are upset that they ended up needing a c-section? If there are some here, then doesn't it stand to reason that there are other women out there who also want to know what they can do to minimize their risk of a c-section? So why should we not talk about the best way to reduce the risk? How else are women to learn about the best ways to try to get the birth they want?

There are always other experiences - no one advocates that the c-section rate be 0%. There are women and babies who would be dead if it weren't for c-sections. But that doesn't mean that we should not try to spread the word of ways to reduce your risk. And yet when we do, then someone always has to take it as a personal attack. There are ways to reduce your risk. But biology is not predictable and they are not a guarantee. All you can do is reduce your risk. You can "do everything right" and not end up with the vaginal birth of your dreams. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't help people try.

I NEVER said "should." I NEVER said everyone should have a natural birth or should even want a natural birth. But many people do want a natural birth, and for many of them, they cannot simply trust their HCP to assist them in this. I am guessing that this is what Storm Bride was getting at - many HCPs will nod and smile when you say that you want a natural birth, but in the end, they will not do what is necessary to help you achieve it. The sad reality is that we have to take responsibility for our own education and choices, b/c the c-section rate continues to rise, not drop. And to that end, we need to be able to talk about ways to lower your risk so that people can make choices that help them achieve the birth they want.

I see no shaming here. And as for the FB reference - my OP in that closed thread was not clear and I was editing as it was closed - but I never attacked a woman for her c-section. What happened was that I was commenting on an article about how to succeed at bfing by trying to minimize birth trauma, and I talked about how bfing was easier after my HB compared to my hospital births. And another woman had to jump in to start justifying her c-sections. And that was my frustration - that whenever we try to talk about ways to help women get the births they want, then everyone who had a c-section takes it personally and feels attacked.
post #89 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayaMama View Post
to address the above: i started this thread in an attempt to move beyond "how to avoid a c-section" into "how are mothers that have had c-sections included in the natural birth community?".

there are really two very different issues and what i think you'll find in reading the stories is that many women here are feeling disenfranchised and second-best because they needed a surgical birth. i don't think it's really necessary in this particular thread to bring up ways that women could avoid c-sections. there are lots of mothers here who well-educated about their birth choices.

i'm more interested in moving beyond the issues of education and more into the areas of healing and acceptance.

I was not trying to educate here - I just brought those up as examples of things that you will hear every day in the NCB community. And my intention was to address your OP - the NCB community is about advocating NCB. And if women who have had c-sections want to be included in the NCB community, then they need to accept that there is going to be a lot of discussion about how to educate women about the risks in childbirth, and that some of this discussion may make them feel bad. It may make them feel attacked in that they somehow did something wrong. And that is simply not the case.

Sometimes people do attack you personally. That is not right and that is not what I'm talking about. But talking generally about NCB in the NCB community is ALWAYS going to include educating women about the risks of "routine" interventions and other choices in childbirth, and if this hurts someone personally, and if they take it as a personal attack on their birth, then that is on them.

The NBC community has a responsibility to educate women on the choices in childbirth and the statistical likelihood of any choice ending in a c-section. It also has a responsibility to educate women that they can do their best to reduce their risks and still end up with a c-section. It also has the responsibility to never shame a person or intentionally make them feel like a second-class citizen for having had a c-section. But in the end, the NBC is going to do a lot of talking about the risks of various birth practices and taking such education as a personal attack is not going to help include c-section mamas in the NBC community.
post #90 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedOakMomma View Post
Storm Bride, , I'm not saying my experience can say anything generalized about women and their experiences, but (and I say this gently), I don't think your individual experience can say there's "a pretty good chance of ending up in the hands of someone who does not care about you or your baby."

I get the impression that she is not just referencing her personal experience, but the prevainling gist of stories both here on MDC, and in the wider birthing community. Yes, your description balances hers but by no means discounts it.


I shared my experience to argue against the "That's the truth" statement, but also because I think it's great, a page or so back, that there was a post from a woman who is studying to be an OB so she can be an example of what the profession should be. I shared my story in the hopes of encouraging her, or others, or first-time moms, or first-time hospital birthers in finding/being an OB that really gets it, and respects a mother's right to be a part of the decision-making.
OK, and how does one go about finding that OB? I moved while pregnant so total met about 5 OBs while preggers/birthing and none of them inspired me with much confidence. The one who attended my birth wanted to section me as soon as I arrived at the hospital. I had only been in labor at that point for three hours! I think it wise to remember that most women have limited choices when selecting a caregiver. Often you just get whomever is on call. Not everyone is able to have any sort of relationship with their OB..
I agree with the feeling of marginalization on MDC towards those who have had c-sections. I think it sucks. I also don't think my son's birth was all that traumatic, so that forum doesn't work for me. And frankly, assuming that all c-section mommies should want to post there is a judgment in itself y'know? So Hooray for a C-section support group! While we are at it can we put language in the user agreement against disparaging women who have had one? I also don't enjoy being told that there was no way I could have bonded with my baby; I did something wrong; yadda yadda yadda...
post #91 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
I completely disagree. Do you really think that we should not talk about ways to decrease c-section risk? Really? REALLY?

Is this thread not full of women who are upset that they ended up needing a c-section? If there are some here, then doesn't it stand to reason that there are other women out there who also want to know what they can do to minimize their risk of a c-section? So why should we not talk about the best way to reduce the risk? How else are women to learn about the best ways to try to get the birth they want?
Yes, really.

I do believe that natural, vaginal birth is best. I believe it so much that I believe if you talk about it positively, women will figure it out. I don't believe you have to demonize c-sections in order for women to seek to avoid them. They are major surgery and they have their own risks and can have really serious impacts. These are not issues to say.

However c-sections are also wonderful things in the right circumstances.

My version of a "failed" natural birth is where decisions are made incorrectly which seriously impact on the child's or mother's health. Not every c-section qualifies for that, nor does every non-intervention.

I do find it mildly offensive that a woman's whole experience for the best birth is supposed to boil down to "avoid a c-section at any cost." That was my position on my first delivery as well, and the thing is - there are worse things than a c-section, like a dead or severely handicapped child.

There is no reason to focus on ONE potential lifesaving procedure as the worst-case "bad birth" scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
I NEVER said "should." I NEVER said everyone should have a natural birth or should even want a natural birth. But many people do want a natural birth, and for many of them, they cannot simply trust their HCP to assist them in this. I am guessing that this is what Storm Bride was getting at - many HCPs will nod and smile when you say that you want a natural birth, but in the end, they will not do what is necessary to help you achieve it. The sad reality is that we have to take responsibility for our own education and choices, b/c the c-section rate continues to rise, not drop. And to that end, we need to be able to talk about ways to lower your risk so that people can make choices that help them achieve the birth they want.
I think it's really nice to think that avoiding a c-section is all about a little encouragement or that HCPs "won't do" what is necessary. But I don't think the real world on-the-ground decisions usually work out that way.

At this point I really want to ask you about your background, because my experience with HCPs is that they are totally able to support natural birth until they believe an intervention is necessary. That's not a question of not doing what's "necessary." It's a difference in the definition of necessary.

When we talk about a cascade of intervention, I don't feel shamed or blamed. But when we focus simply on c-sections, I find it annoying. It's missing the point. Interventions are just interventions. The question is when.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
I see no shaming here. And as for the FB reference - my OP in that closed thread was not clear and I was editing as it was closed - but I never attacked a woman for her c-section. What happened was that I was commenting on an article about how to succeed at bfing by trying to minimize birth trauma, and I talked about how bfing was easier after my HB compared to my hospital births. And another woman had to jump in to start justifying her c-sections. And that was my frustration - that whenever we try to talk about ways to help women get the births they want, then everyone who had a c-section takes it personally and feels attacked.
Y'know, it's funny but I feel a bit like I've read people say over and over "I was made to feel like I could no longer be a part of the NCB because I had a necessary intervention".

Maybe the NCB (whatever that is) could actually listen to actual women about how it would help them to discuss birth intervention decision making rather than simply demonizing procedures or saying "it shouldn't be shaming for me to express myself this way." In other words, if women KEEP RESPONDING to the way you are expressing yourself in similar ways, they may not be the issue.

If your goal is to empower women then a good place to start is by listening to them.
post #92 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
I was not trying to educate here - I just brought those up as examples of things that you will hear every day in the NCB community. And my intention was to address your OP - the NCB community is about advocating NCB. And if women who have had c-sections want to be included in the NCB community, then they need to accept that there is going to be a lot of discussion about how to educate women about the risks in childbirth, and that some of this discussion may make them feel bad. It may make them feel attacked in that they somehow did something wrong. And that is simply not the case.

Sometimes people do attack you personally. That is not right and that is not what I'm talking about. But talking generally about NCB in the NCB community is ALWAYS going to include educating women about the risks of "routine" interventions and other choices in childbirth, and if this hurts someone personally, and if they take it as a personal attack on their birth, then that is on them.

The NBC community has a responsibility to educate women on the choices in childbirth and the statistical likelihood of any choice ending in a c-section. It also has a responsibility to educate women that they can do their best to reduce their risks and still end up with a c-section. It also has the responsibility to never shame a person or intentionally make them feel like a second-class citizen for having had a c-section. But in the end, the NBC is going to do a lot of talking about the risks of various birth practices and taking such education as a personal attack is not going to help include c-section mamas in the NBC community.
Um, c-section mamas are already included in the NBC. That is why it is important for others to tread with this knowledge y'know? Its not like we are chomping at the bit to have another section, so most attempts at education should not offend. Its more like we are the ultimate reality check...sometimes you can have your heart in the right place,and be very educated as to NB and still end up with a section. It happens.
post #93 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
I see no shaming here.
Yes, this is kind of the crux of the issue. There are those who cannot see or do not recognize shaming in the natural birth community, and yet there are all these women who feel shamed, ostracized, cut-off, disenfranchised, etc by the NBC when they have c-sections.

I think what we're trying to do here is get past the place of mutual "you don't get it" speak.

And I agree with PP that listening...truly listening to what is being said...is a great place to begin.
post #94 of 260
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
Sometimes people do attack you personally. That is not right and that is not what I'm talking about. But talking generally about NCB in the NCB community is ALWAYS going to include educating women about the risks of "routine" interventions and other choices in childbirth, and if this hurts someone personally, and if they take it as a personal attack on their birth, then that is on them.
it could also be the delivery of the information.

i'm NOT, nor is any other mother on this thread, suggesting that we forgo education in regards to decreasing c-section rates. if anything, i think that most mothers on here are very supportive of that.

the point that i'm trying to make is that, there are ways in which the delivery of such information is not often tempered with a caveat that it may not work nor an acceptance that a c-section may be the best choice in a situation. as guildjenn pointed out, the balance of information is missing, and i think this does a disservice to _everyone_ that comes here to research and to those that need c-sections.

it leads to the ideal that if you just do such and such then your birth will be wonderful and when those things don't work then you are left with negative feelings and met with suspicion from others about where you made the wrong choice.

what i've seen expressed is that it would be nice to have a supportive place within the natural birth community to address this.

if i might ask you to address this, does this seem like a valid goal to you?
post #95 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatea View Post

The NBC community has a responsibility to educate women on the choices in childbirth and the statistical likelihood of any choice ending in a c-section. It also has a responsibility to educate women that they can do their best to reduce their risks and still end up with a c-section. It also has the responsibility to never shame a person or intentionally make them feel like a second-class citizen for having had a c-section. But in the end, the NBC is going to do a lot of talking about the risks of various birth practices and taking such education as a personal attack is not going to help include c-section mamas in the NBC community.
I think that some of the "education" perhaps goes past laying out numbers and evidence-based practices and debunking non-evidence based OB practice, and moves towards magical thinking and a belief in the ability to control birth that is just as hubris-filled as any OB, though.

Honestly, so much of the marginalizing of women who had sections comes from people who have listened to the message "You CAN prevent an unnecessary C-section through planning and education," and have taken away the oversimplified message "You can prevent ANY c-section through good living and following this checklist." It's a natural desire, to want to assert control, to believe that there is something we can do to direct our ultimate destinies.

But it often leads to intensive questioning of "What did you do WRONG?" of women who come back to their DDCs after sections.

There may be some grudging acceptance that SOME sections are necessary, but that, in turn, leads to questioning of whether a specific person's specific section was one of the necessary ones. Again, at some level this is a natural outcome of this magical thinking. Every woman who comes back to the DDC after a section puts that magical belief in the ability to control the universe into question.

I, personally, believe that there is plenty in life that is out of our direct control. I do not believe that bad things come to people because they manifest them, or that positive thoughts are enough to keep bad things away. The thought that life sometimes just throws crap at you is a scary thought - but that's what birth does - you can prepare for it, you can be educated about what it involves, biologically, hormonally, psychologically, emotionally -- but we're not machines, and there is no perfect understanding that will lead to perfect birth if every rule is followed perfectly.
post #96 of 260
I will preface this by saying I have never given birth and am pregnant with my first child, so this is where my perspective is coming from.

I will just say it: IMO, c-sections are not included as part of the NCB framework because they are not natural. This includes those that are necessary. That does not make them any less valid of experiences and the result of a safe and healthy mother and baby should always be the ultimate goal.

I find it interesting that so many previous posters have come on here to voice their own experiences of their c-sections and their great providers as examples of why c-sections should be included into the ncb framework. However, these same posters are indicating that the c-section was not the desired method for bringing their child into this world. I don't think there are many women out there who planned a natural birth and ended up with a c-section who now feel that c-section is the only way. I believe I have read of many women who have experienced a c-section who still believe that natural birth is the desirable choice for the process.

There is also reference to moving forward in natural parenting. I think this is the split. There is a difference between natural childbirth and natural parenting.

There are also many references to people feeling marginalized or disenfranchised in threads on MDC, just because they had a c-section. I, myself, have not seen threads where someone is criticized for having had a necessary c-section. I have seen threads where people apologize to others for their interventions and/or c-section. I feel this is a natural emotion as someone who does believe in natural childbirth. I mourn and grieve for the loss of the desired birth, but can also rejoice in the outcome of healthy child, despite the way it made it into the world. I will never celebrate a c-section, though I can appreciate their life-saving place in the world.

Sorry for my ramble but that is how I see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayaMama View Post
the point that i'm trying to make is that, there are ways in which the delivery of such information is not often tempered with a caveat that it may not work nor an acceptance that a c-section may be the best choice in a situation. as guildjenn pointed out, the balance of information is missing, and i think this does a disservice to _everyone_ that comes here to research and to those that need c-sections.

it leads to the ideal that if you just do such and such then your birth will be wonderful and when those things don't work then you are left with negative feelings and met with suspicion from others about where you made the wrong choice.
I'm editing to respond to this statement. I consider myself a rational person. I have read a ton of information on MDC. I have read about rrl tea, going past 41 weeks, EPO, acupressure, chiropractic, etc etc etc. I do not however, feel that there is a magic routine which will produce magic results. To do so would be naive. I believe I have seen time and time again a focus on education. Know why things are being done and understand the possible alternatives.
post #97 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by louis View Post
I will just say it: IMO, c-sections are not included as part of the NCB framework because they are not natural. This includes those that are necessary. That does not make them any less valid of experiences and the result of a safe and healthy mother and baby should always be the ultimate goal.
Scissors aren't natural either, nor is sterilization, but women who use scissors and sterilize stuff are still welcome in the NCB community. How about a rubber blow-up birthing pool? Does that qualify?

I think for me when I think about what a natural birth is for me, it's not starting interventions just because that's "what's done" or you want your baby on the 25th because there's a wedding - that's not natural. It's about keeping our biological and emotional needs at the fore.

But for human beings to throw the tools they have at saving lives - to me that's pretty natural.
post #98 of 260
Hey, and NICU's aren't natural - yet there is a place here to get support if you end up having a preemie or sick baby. And just like pre-term labor happens, c-sections happen. You can do all the right things, and be the biggest believer in natural childbirth and less than ideal things obviously can and do happen.

I think that's the thing - there seems to be people who haven't quite grasped that all the education in the world isn't going to change the fact that c-sections happen - and many of those truly are necessary. Yes, informed mothers and caring HCP's is an important aspect - so by all means, don't give up your quest for NCB advocacy - but there are times when women just want to be heard, and truly listened to, without the extra information that can in fact feel attacking or judgemental.
post #99 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
Scissors aren't natural either, nor is sterilization, but women who use scissors and sterilize stuff are still welcome in the NCB community. How about a rubber blow-up birthing pool? Does that qualify?

I think for me when I think about what a natural birth is for me, it's not starting interventions just because that's "what's done" or you want your baby on the 25th because there's a wedding - that's not natural. It's about keeping our biological and emotional needs at the fore.

But for human beings to throw the tools they have at saving lives - to me that's pretty natural.
We can always take things to extremes, but that is not what I am saying here. Major surgery is not a part of a vaginal natural birth. This is a fact. I also believe that women who have c-sections have a place in the ncb community, if they recognize that c-sections are not the desirable process. Yes they can be necessary and as a ncb advocate I agree with that. But every reasonable step should be taken to avoid them.
post #100 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife View Post
Hey, and NICU's aren't natural - yet there is a place here to get support if you end up having a preemie or sick baby. And just like pre-term labor happens, c-sections happen. You can do all the right things, and be the biggest believer in natural childbirth and less than ideal things obviously can and do happen.

I think that's the thing - there seems to be people who haven't quite grasped that all the education in the world isn't going to change the fact that c-sections happen - and many of those truly are necessary. Yes, informed mothers and caring HCP's is an important aspect - so by all means, don't give up your quest for NCB advocacy - but there are times when women just want to be heard, and truly listened to, without the extra information that can in fact feel attacking or judgemental.

I do want to point out that NICU is in the Ages and Stages section of MDC. Not the Pregnancy and Birthing section. Again, this is the split between natural parenting and natural birth.

I will never attack or judge someone who despite their desire for a natural birth, ended up with a c-section. My only wish is that there is first that desire.
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