What did/will you do regarding vitamin K at birth? - Page 2

[Greenlea]

Originally Posted by texasfarmom

We were also told on the tour that they (the nursery) does not need our permission to give the Vit K or the eye ointment! WHAT!? That kinda makes me uneasy!

Can you opt out of having the baby go to the nursery at all? At the hospital I gave birth at they routinely leave the baby in the room. Then you won't have to worry about it.

[emnic77]

homebirth - not getting it unless there is evidence that the baby needs it (strange bruising or discoloration that my midwife will look for). In the meantime, I eat a ton of olive oil, and chard and kale to maybe get a bit more in me to cross the placenta.

[yara1]

In New York state its mandatory. Almost impossible to refuse it.
Sp avoiding vit. "K" was one of the major reasons why I chose homebirth this time: an infant doesn't need any shots, I beleive.

[mwherbs]

well the reason that the New York health department decided to insist upon vitamin K shots was the retrospective study they did looking at the cases of babies who were hospitalized with hemorrhagic disorders and brain bleeds- the rate they came up with was 1-2 per 2000
important points-
1) studies on intake of vitamin K of moms and women of childbearing age in the United States is about 50-60 micrograms/day- the RDA says 90 micrograms/day minimum; so to start off with moms in America are deficient in vitamin K.

2) very little vitamin K passes from mom's blood thru the placenta- now yes it does seem to be utilized by the placenta but doesn't go into baby's blood stream, but if you eat vitamin K or take a supplement while breastfeeding it not only gets to baby the levels can actually be higher than what is circulating in mom's blood-

3) in 2/3 of cases of HDN?LHDN will have a brain bleed before other signs or symptoms

4) there are a combo of things that increase the likelihood of HDN/LHDN
-- low maternal intake - below the 90 micrograms/day and especially if
maternal intake is 50 micrograms or below/day
--- exclusively breastfeed infant
-- no vitamin K prophylaxis, either shot or oral- (the Netherlands has a very long weekly oral regime)
--- birth trauma- bruising, resuscitation
--- exposure to antibiotics or other drugs
--- poor feeding, illness/ diarrhea , prolonged jaundice
--- metabolic disorders- including subclinical liver/gallbladder disease , maternal cholestasis in pregnancy will also change liver/gallbladder function, gluten intolerance, cystic fibrosis, thyroid....
------------
some things are thought to have a degree of effect like lifetime maternal load/exposure to PCB's and toxic flurans- you cannot change what you will pass on to your baby by changing your diet in pregnancy but you may be able to off set what your child will accumulate in a life time and pass on
-------
researchers that have looked at breastmilk/maternal diet across the board think that there may very well be room for RDAs to be increased for breastfeeding moms to a much higher daily amount.
vitamin K has more than just clotting/anti-clotting factors as function in the body they include prevention of hardening of the arteries, working with other things like vitamin D and calcium to keep bones healthy, protecting the kidneys from oxidative damage, regulating blood sugar... acquired protein S deficency( this is one of the anti-clotting factors associated with vitamin K) presents as lupus as you can see there are many health reasons to increase your intake of vitamin K not only for your lifetime health but your baby's as well

[CherryBomb]

We do it. The risk of hemorrage is small (like 0.1%) but it's not worth it to me, as someone who aready has one child with brain damage. I know all too well that something being rare doesn't mean it's not going to happen to us :/

[redvlagrl]

We do the shot. I am under the impression that there can be internal bleeding which is no apparent that it can help. It's not just obvious trauma. At least that's the way the mw explained it to me.

[suzywan]

Originally Posted by mwherbs

well the reason that the New York health department decided to insist upon vitamin K shots was the retrospective study they did looking at the cases of babies who were hospitalized with hemorrhagic disorders and brain bleeds- the rate they came up with was 1-2 per 2000
important points-
1) studies on intake of vitamin K of moms and women of childbearing age in the United States is about 50-60 micrograms/day- the RDA says 90 micrograms/day minimum; so to start off with moms in America are deficient in vitamin K.

2) very little vitamin K passes from mom's blood thru the placenta- now yes it does seem to be utilized by the placenta but doesn't go into baby's blood stream, but if you eat vitamin K or take a supplement while breastfeeding it not only gets to baby the levels can actually be higher than what is circulating in mom's blood-

3) in 2/3 of cases of HDN?LHDN will have a brain bleed before other signs or symptoms

4) there are a combo of things that increase the likelihood of HDN/LHDN
-- low maternal intake - below the 90 micrograms/day and especially if
maternal intake is 50 micrograms or below/day
--- exclusively breastfeed infant
-- no vitamin K prophylaxis, either shot or oral- (the Netherlands has a very long weekly oral regime)
--- birth trauma- bruising, resuscitation
--- exposure to antibiotics or other drugs
--- poor feeding, illness/ diarrhea , prolonged jaundice
--- metabolic disorders- including subclinical liver/gallbladder disease , maternal cholestasis in pregnancy will also change liver/gallbladder function, gluten intolerance, cystic fibrosis, thyroid....
------------
some things are thought to have a degree of effect like lifetime maternal load/exposure to PCB's and toxic flurans- you cannot change what you will pass on to your baby by changing your diet in pregnancy but you may be able to off set what your child will accumulate in a life time and pass on
-------
researchers that have looked at breastmilk/maternal diet across the board think that there may very well be room for RDAs to be increased for breastfeeding moms to a much higher daily amount.
vitamin K has more than just clotting/anti-clotting factors as function in the body they include prevention of hardening of the arteries, working with other things like vitamin D and calcium to keep bones healthy, protecting the kidneys from oxidative damage, regulating blood sugar... acquired protein S deficency( this is one of the anti-clotting factors associated with vitamin K) presents as lupus as you can see there are many health reasons to increase your intake of vitamin K not only for your lifetime health but your baby's as well

So what would be your suggestion - not medical advice! - just suggestion? I did not get the shot or oral Vit K for my son, but what you put here makes me think I should be more pro-active about getting at least the oral dose for my next little one.

While, yes, if all babies *needed* Vit K in large doses at birth, it would make sense that they would be born with it, I do believe that Mother Nature tends to have a heavy hand when it comes to pruning. I am interested in learning more about the importance of prophylactic vit K from that perspective, using scientific evidence of its efficacy.

[KistheMum]

Well, I was so exhausted... I was laying there saying, "no vax, no vax" so they decided to say that was permission to give the Vitamin K and Eryth. After all, they aren't vaxes right? Argh.

I will make sure our next One doesn't get anything.

[nia82]

There is only one state that mandates the vitamin K shot (and eye goop): new York. All other states DO NOT MANDATE it and hence you just refuse it. There is absolutely no law in any other state, and if a hospital or doctor says otherwise, call a lawyer, cause they just lied to you and certainly didn't act according to informed consent.

DS was born in CA and nobody batted an eye over refusing that stuff, you just sign a form that says the hospital recommends it, but you don't want it. I'm fine with that. We bought oral vitamin K from the midwifery store in case DS was bruised from birth, which he was a little, so we gave him the oral stuff (you do three doses throughout 6 weeks).

Please note that most EU countries use oral vitamin K only and the babies do fine. It's called Konakion and made by Roche, I personally prefer however the plant derived drops from the midwifery store.


@ Greanlea: I would not allow the kid in the nursery. My son never went there, plus it was a baby friendly hospital, they only put sick children in the nursery ever. There is no law that they can steal your child against your will and put him into the nursery. NO WAY! I also HIGHLY DOUBT that the nursery nurses are allowed to administer shots of any sorts without parental consent. That would be a lawsuit for them. I suppose what they were hinting at is that you sign preadmission paperwork. In there is a phrase that you allow them to do routine stuff. And that's how they cover their butts. Make sure your preadmission papers contain a paper that you draw up and have them signed (one copy for you, one for them) that states that you refuse vitamin k shots and eye goop or whatever, have it notarized, make sure it is there.

[mwherbs]

check your daily diet and be sure you are eating starting in pregnancy and thru breastfeeding atleast the daily amount of vitamin K in food probably more like 120 micrograms/day instead of 90 there are some decent food calculators online - I like this one in particular- http://www.nutritiondata.com/
when you see how much it takes to get the daily amount daily you will be surprised how easy it is -but also lets you know how infrequently women must eat greens to be getting only 50-60 micrograms/day
this is a life time habit you are trying to acquire for yourself and family- for insurance I would also have the oral drops from scientific botanicals- or shots if mom has cholestasis or if there is a full on resuscitation, heavy bruising or known metabolic disorder-- because one of the things vitamin K does is act as an antioxidant and anti-inflammatory and protects the brain from damage when there is distress and then as a result in the aftermath the levels of vit K lower and oral K does not protect all babies who have metabolic disorders.
if you want to know more about vitamin K I suggest pub med- put in vitamin K there are over 13000 abstracts - I have been trying to keep up with current research -
2 of my kids got vitamin K and 2 did not but if I knew then what i know now it would be all got vitamin K- and I would be eating greens several servings a day- as it is I have been convincing my family to eat more greens and serve them daily now-- take care

-----------I wanted to make a correction shoot for getting 230 micrograms a day - I know that this is far above what the RDA is but is closer to what the studies on the areas in Japan that have the lowest incidence of K related bleeds and looks as though that amount is pretty close to what has been show to be protective against bone breakage in older women in the Framingham study- i

[suzywan]

Thank you mwherbs! I will definitely be doing more research. Also, will check out oral drops for the next kid.

[luv-my-boys]

Originally Posted by texasfarmom

We were also told on the tour that they (the nursery) does not need our permission to give the Vit K or the eye ointment! WHAT!? That kinda makes me uneasy!

honestly that response really scares me on so many levels. I personally would never let my child out of my sight. I would try to have someone with the baby at all times they are doing something with it. I know around here they routinely take the baby to the nursery to do stuff like weighing/bathing/hospital paperwork-prints and the like but I always made sure I was 1 step ahead of them (aprtly because Im paranoid that someone will steal my baby)

Im assuming that they are speaking of your pre-admin paperwork that gives medical personell a blanket consent for treatment for your child and yourself. I would make sure you voice your choices and literally write them down and attach to the bassinet. Often pre-admin paperwork is not read by the nursing or medical staff (im a nurse) so we may never see you marked off stuff unless you tell us.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by Funny Face

We don't do it unless there is heavy bruising or a trauma at the birth.

With dd we did the shot because we were at the hospital and that's all they had. I think I would do the shot again (in the instances listed above) as the elevated levels would be needed immediately to make any difference for clotting after trauma.

That's just my take on it though.

Actually, the oral is good for whatever might happen immediately. What it is less effective for is late onset hemmorhagic disease. That's what the studies show anyway.