Need Some Help - 9 month old frequent waking & frequent nursing

[Mamaluu]

I didn't want to steal the 10-month-old-frequent-waking thread, but I do need some help with our situation so I started my own thread here.

Both husband and I are burnt out from not getting any sleep (our 9 month old waking up every couple hours crying and won't go back to sleep), and we really need it fixed. Usually nothing gets him back to sleep but nursing. I need help getting him to sleep for much longer stretches without waking up and without nursing. We can't go much longer like this...

We've tried all the usual things for calming and night weaning like rocking, singing, holding, giving him water, etc, but they all result to non-stop crying & escalated screaming until he finally gets on the boob because I give in.

He actually slept for 8 hours straight without any waking or nursing at all when he was 3 month old, in his own crib (in our room but far corner from our bed). Then this started 2-3 months ago when he got sick (caught a cold & started very frequent waking) and then the whole teething thing, so we just moved him to our bed after his first waking of the night and basically tried to comfort him and nurse him all night through his frequent wakings. But the last few weeks, for example, I don't feel that his teeth/gum have been bothering him, and I suspect that he is habitually waking up to nurse. He usually wakes up crying and won't stop until he gets on the boob.

I am frustrated by being told by everyone to let him CIO because I don't feel comfortable with that. What can I do to stop the frequent waking & nursing altogether? If I just let him cried & screamed (until who knows when he will decide to stop) while I hold him in my arms is that any different? What else can I do?

[mamadaan]

Night waking changes a lot in the first few years. Even if a baby sleeps for long periods alone in a crib at a given age, it is not unsual or strange if he or she starts needing more parenting at night at a later stage,

A lot of babies wake up crying or in distress at this age. Some people think it is related to neurological changes because of changes in the way a baby dreams or connected to motor development. I have noticed that a lot of parents end up cosleeping at this age, even if they are 'not into that kind of thing' as it is often the only way for them to get some sleep while providing the comfort that the child needs. Your DS's nighttime nursing could also reflect the amount of nursing that you both need for him to continue getting enough breast milk and for you to keep your milk supply up. It is a tough age for nighttime parenting.

Do you want to stop the nighttime nursing and 'parenting' because you feel that it is inappropriate for his age or other people feel this way? Then perhaps the easiest thing to do is to let it go and give him what he seems to need until he grows out of it by himself.

Or are you feeling totally burned out by his needs?

[alegna]

I would put him in bed with you and help him learn to latch on by himself. A lot of night nursing is very normal with babies that age. My ds is nearly 2 and still wakes every few hours most nights to nurse.

-Angela

[blimbrick]

Feeling your pain

So sorry that you are going through the same thing I am going through, we have struggled with sleep problems since Lucas was 3 mos. old. I have accepted co-sleep (after his first wake at night, about 3 hours after going down) and frequent night nursing. I work full time and we don't spend a lot of time together, so it allows us to reconnect.
Maybe he's just not ready for night weaning, how much milk does he get during the day? Our ped says Lucas should be getting at least 20 ozs a day until 12 mos. He drinks anywhere between 8-15 ozs at my mom's, then he's so easily distracted in the evenings I can usually get him to nurse only once before his bedtime routine.
I know it's tough, Lucas has actually gone through a few periods where he was waking every 45 mins, and I was only sleeping about 3 hours total and getting up for work at 445 AM. These periods lasted a few weeks, thank goodness he only wakes every 2-3 hours right now.
I say let him lead the nightweaning, can you sleep during the day when he sleeps?

[Mamaluu]

Originally Posted by mamadaan

A lot of babies wake up crying or in distress at this age.

Yeah, it's that crying and especially distress that makes me unsure how to attend. (what is he is scared, what if he feels really insecure and needs comfort, what if he is nervous, what if he is stressed from all the activities during the day, what if he doesn't feel well or good....) On the one hand demanding the night nursing so frequently seems habitual & behavioral , and on the other hand, I never know if he actually is having some troubles for real or actually NEEDS something...

Originally Posted by mamadaan

Do you want to stop the nighttime nursing and 'parenting' because you feel that it is inappropriate for his age or other people feel this way? Then perhaps the easiest thing to do is to let it go and give him what he seems to need until he grows out of it by himself.

Or are you feeling totally burned out by his needs?

I want to stop night nursing and night waking, but not the night "parenting" (whatever that means with the absence of nursing & frequent waking). I'd like for him to sleep for 8 hours straight without waking (unless he has a real physical problem) and without nursing, which he had done at 3 months of age and I felt totally comfortable with in terms of the long stretch without nursing. While he had done that stretch at 3 months of age, I feel that physiologically he sure can go for 8 hours without eating at night now at 9 months.

I think I'm burnt out, but I can at least try to nap with him (do does very short naps) during the day. The bigger problem is my husband who gets no sleep at night and then has to go to work and perform at work for 12 hours during the day. He is about ready to crash if not crashing already...

Almost all the time I end up nursing him back to sleep just so he can be quiet and we can go back to sleep (for an hour or 2 until the next waking). But I kind of want to do something to stop this pattern because I feel that it only gets worse and he only gets more and more dependent on night nursing, and I wonder if giving in to what he is asking for (night nursing I guess) would only make him more and more dependent & demanding. And I don't believe in having to night nurse if he physically doesn't need the food at night. If he needs some comfort, I am happy to do the night "parenting" and provide comfort in ways other than nursing, but I just don't have any that doesn't drive him into escalated screaming and crying louder and louder...

[Mamaluu]

Originally Posted by alegna

I would put him in bed with you and help him learn to latch on by himself. A lot of night nursing is very normal with babies that age.

Why? what is the actual "need"? That's what I don't get. He needs to be fed every couple hours at night at 9 months? I don't think so. I think it's something else....

But going back to your suggestion, just letting him nurse all he wants is a bit less stressful and dealing with a crying & screaming baby (and so intensely that he arches his back when you try to hold him or comfort him) in the middle of the night, except that I'm one of those who can't sleep with him on my breast. I can't even get comfortable no matter what position, I'm actually irritated from all the back discomforts from leaning/lying down to nurse.

[Mamaluu]

Originally Posted by blimbrick

Maybe he's just not ready for night weaning, how much milk does he get during the day? Our ped says Lucas should be getting at least 20 ozs a day until 12 mos.

I have no way of measuring while he nurses from the breast.... but I'd say about 5 or 6 times during the day.

Originally Posted by blimbrick

I say let him lead the nightweaning, can you sleep during the day when he sleeps?

huhnn....my back is killing me from lying in bed nursing, and how is he going to stop ever when it's so nice & comforting & becoming more and more habitual? And letting him continue to night nurse would also mean that he is to continue to be in our bed all night - I'd rather have him in his own crib for at least half the night. I can't sleep with him in our bed rolling all over the place trying to take up the whole bed, and me constantly being conscious about smashing his little hands or bodyparts because he rolls all the way to me and pushes right against me some times, and if I'm not careful I could be sleeping on him....

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Mamaluu

I want to stop night nursing and night waking, but not the night "parenting" (whatever that means with the absence of nursing & frequent waking). I'd like for him to sleep for 8 hours straight without waking (unless he has a real physical problem) and without nursing, which he had done at 3 months of age and I felt totally comfortable with in terms of the long stretch without nursing. While he had done that stretch at 3 months of age, I feel that physiologically he sure can go for 8 hours without eating at night now at 9 months.

9 months is a classic time for sleep regression. He may actually be going through a growth spurt, or needing the comfort from nursing. What he did at 3 months has no bearing on what he needs now, as his whole world is different. My baby slept 8 hours two nights last week, and has since gone back to waking every 2 hours, and the only way I can get her back to sleep is by nursing her.

I would like for DD to sleep for 8 straight hours every night too, but she doesn't agree.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Mamaluu

Why? what is the actual "need"? That's what I don't get. He needs to be fed every couple hours at night at 9 months? I don't think so. I think it's something else....

But going back to your suggestion, just letting him nurse all he wants is a bit less stressful and dealing with a crying & screaming baby (and so intensely that he arches his back when you try to hold him or comfort him) in the middle of the night, except that I'm one of those who can't sleep with him on my breast. I can't even get comfortable no matter what position, I'm actually irritated from all the back discomforts from leaning/lying down to nurse.

Have you read "The No-Cry Sleep Solution"?

[blimbrick]

I understand, it took me awhile to figure out how to get comfortable while nursing in bed, my arms were constantly falling asleep so I didn't crush him, etc...we ended up with our matress on the floor, and if you don't have a king size, if you put a twin size matress beside a queen, and sleep sideways, you pretty much have a king size matress and PLENTY of room to sleep and give LO space. Now we have attached his crib in a side car arrangement, and he pretty much stays in the crib asleep except for nursing every 2-3 hours. It is frustrating, at 3 mos. old Lucas was sleeping 6.5 hours in a stretch and it's tough when they regress. Same here, Lucas will wake up screaming almost like he's in pain until I nurse him or reassure him that I am there. Keep in mind too that separation anxiety also can play a role between 7-14 mos. Can your husband get some ear plugs for at night, if it's the crying that wakes him up? I know it would suck but is moving to another room/bed feasible so that you and the babe have more space?

I agree, the No-Cry Sleep Solution is a good place to start.

[maptome]

I would try to accept that you need to nurse him down every two hours unless you CIO. I agree that he probably does not have a physiological need to nurse, but sometimes, you wear yourself out more trying to figure out how to not nurse.

I know that it's easier for me to accept because my DD (9 months also) has never slept 8 hours straight and only nursing every 2-3 hours is the best I've ever had. It's really not bad, especially compared to obsessively trying to figure out how to get them to stop.

Good luck with whatever path you pick.

[JuliMummy]

Hi Mamaluu,

I'm in the same boat as you. My just over 8-month old daughter has never slept through. The best she ever did was waking up only twice every night for a feed at about 3 to 4 months old. She then got progressively worse until she was waking every 45 minutes. Like you I decided letting her sleep in our bed and letting her nurse whenever she woke up crying was the easiest and most peaceful way of dealing with it, although I'm not very comfortable with her in our bed either. I've gotten used to it a bit, but I'd still rather have my bed to myself. On top of everything I also have a two-and-a-half year old who, after sleeping quite well for the last 6 months or so, has now started getting up several times during the night and refusing to go back to bed without making a fuss and waking his sister up again. The sleep deprivation is slowly driving me insane. Last night was particularly bad again and I actually lost it and ended up yelling at my son to go back to bed. I guess it's a miracle I don't lose it more often given the torture that being woken up every hour or so is

Anyway, in saying all this, I do actually have a suggestion that might help you. I only swaddled my daughter for a little while after she was born and then didn't bother with it after that as it didn't seem to make too much of a difference at that stage. But when she started waking up every 45 minutes during the night she was also really tense and fidgety and had a lot of trouble lying still for long enough to go to sleep. So I decided to try wrapping her again. As she managed to get out of traditional wraps and even the kiddopotamus swaddle-me I bought a Woombie, which has been fantastic. She can't get out of it, but she can still move her arms to where they're most comfortable for her. Whilst it hasn't been a miracle for us, it has improved things a little. She settles much more quickly to go to sleep and has gone from waking every 45 minutes to every hour or two (most of the time). She also doesn't wake up as easily if I shift her into her bed after she's fallen asleep at the breast (so I get at least some sleep by myself). But the other thing I've really enjoyed about it is that she is much more contained in her own space. She doesn't roll into me so much and there are no hands and feet being waved around and hitting me in the face all the time. You could try it and see if it helps your little one sleep better and maybe make you more comfortable.

I have come to terms with the fact that there isn't much I can do to stop the waking and night nursing at this stage, and that she will grow out of it eventually. My son did, however he was never quite this bad. I agree with Pearl H that accepting it and not stressing about it too much is probably the best thing to do, but I do realise that that is easier said than done.

In terms of your husband getting some sleep, have you got another room he could sleep in, at least occassionally? Because there seems little point in keeping you both awake all night when there's not much he can do to help anyway. That way you would also have more room in the bed. We don't have that particular problem as my husband sleeps "like a baby" (ha ha...)

I hope this helps. I know it helps me to talk about things, even when I know perfectly well that there isn't much I can do about it.

All the best. I hope he settles down a bit soon.

Love,
Juli

[lisalu100]

DH sleeps in the spare room every few nights, and I think that helps him to tolerate the night waking. I'm too lazy to have even tried anything but nursing 9 mo DD, since that nearly always puts her back to sleep. I do think she must need the milk at night, because she's a pretty poor nurser unless she's sleepy/asleep. I think milk is fattier at night? I've started trying to add more fat to her diet, since she's very into solids. I have big breasts, and have found I can actually lie on my back, DD lying on her side next to me on a pillow, her head on my arm, and I can comfortably go back to sleep. I figured this position out a couple of weeks ago, and it has made a world of difference. Until then, I was like you, I couldn't go back to sleep until she was done.

What also helps me, is that I figure I have done this for 9 months, I can manage another 3 months. Having the deadline of a year until I night-wean helps. Then I'm going to try a mixture of Jay Gordon and Pantley's night-weaning methods.

[Mamaluu]

Hi JuliMummy, Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I wish the swaddling would work for my son but he gets too hot & sweaty and most importantly too agitated (screaming) being tied down in any way. If he wasn't like that, it would have been a good idea. :-(

Many of you suggest to accept that I need to nurse him to sleep, and nurse through the frequent nigh wakings just to get him back to sleep. I thought about that - that is a real exhaustion because he doesn't just nurse for 10-15 minutes and falls asleep. Typically after he seems to have fallen asleep pretty well, and I take him off the breasts, he would immediately wake up screaming & crying (that's when I usually end up latching him on to shut him up). I would try un-latching him every time he seems very asleep (hands falling off), and he would wake up screaming and we have to start it all over trying to get him calm again. Sometimes after doing it a few times he won't even get back on the breast anymore; he would just cry and scream in anger and frustration, and that's when I really have absolutely no way to calm him down anymore (if the boobs don't do it, what else is there?!) Other times he would suck a whole bunch, unlatch himself, and start crying - I don't really understand this one but when he does this the boobs don't work either. What can I do about these situations when nursing isn't the magic solution anymore?

I just read the "no cry sleep solution" - great book. I'm trying the Pantly's gentle removal process to get him off the breasts, but like I said, not working. With every attempt to unlatch him gently, he only gets more frustrated. What to do?

Another question - what can I do when he just plain fights sleep? We go through the whole bedtime routine and when it comes to going to sleep, he fools around, be silly, talks, makes funny noises, plays and won't sleep. My husband spent 1.5 hour next to his crib telling him "no" "time for sleep" "no playing".... and he was still doing the same. Eventually he just breaks down and cries, then we become really helpless.... What can we do? Just try to nurse him again at that point? (sometimes that doesn't even work becaues he would cry and cry and even when he falls asleep on the breast he won't let go without crying again....)

[alegna]

A couple of thoughts in no particular order-

what do naps look like? Is it maybe time to drop one? (does he have more than 1 a day?) Or does he need a better solid nap?

What time is bed time and wake up? Does he maybe need an earlier bedtime? Or a later one? Some babies need more or less sleep than others. My dd NEVER needed as much sleep as the books said.

WHEN the nursing to sleep works- go with it. I get that it doesn't always, but make it work for you when it does. Many babies (mine and friends') go through stages where they won't sleep without the nipple in their mouths. It's a pain. But it's MUCH less of a pain to sleep or rest with them in bed with you than to fight it taking it away all night.

As to the *why* of nursing all night- truly that's just the way many human babies ARE.

good luck!

-Angela

[zamia7]

My son is 7 1/2 months and always been a terrible sleeper. I read NCSS, and I will tell you what has helped us(though not even close to a good sleeper, he is getting better)

We put our guest bed mattress on the floor next to our bed. It is a ful size bed and that is where he sleeps. This way, he is not as close to the boob so it's not the first thing he thinks about. We do the gentle removal plan, and that helps, but its not all the time. Moving him out of our bed was the best move, and this way I go to him when he needs me, and once he is back to sleep I crawl back into our bed next to DH. This way DH can sleep through more, and if my son is having a particularly needy night, I can stay on his bed and sleep next to him. I was going to use a futon, but its been in the basement (yuck!) but I know futons are fairly inexpensive.

We also started putting him to bed an hour and a half earlier than we were, that has helped too.

No where close to sleeping through the night, but he has had many more good nights (only waking 2-3x) than before.

Oh, and he just started the waking to play at 3 am stuff. No fun. BUT, I can still stay half alseep while he plays by himself, and after about a half hour he will usually start crying BUT more than once has totally shocked me by playing himself to sleep!

[BestMother]

Most of the babies never allow their parents to sleep during night for some or other reasons , just make sure that your baby had enough food and make him to sleep peacefully by singing a song....hahahahahahaha

[joyful mother]

If I were you I would lay down at nap time and experiment seeing if I could find a way to nurse and sleep, pillows etc. I am not large chested and can nurse in many, many positions. DD like being sprawled across me and nursing. With the first it took a while but now we have many ways to sleep!

[Louisep]

Just want to say hugs, I have been there. I looked into every possibillity and drove myself nuts trying to find a solution. I even did 3 brutal elimination diets. The truth is 6-12 months is a crazy developmental time for babies and some just seem to process it all at night - or can't process it and wake up a lot. Constant teething, growth spurts, crawling, walking and even talking can all disrupt sleep. Finally I stopped looking for answers and nursed all night long, took naps religiously, and made dh sleep elsewhere. Dh was then able to get up with ds in the morning and give me an hour lie in and more at the weekend.

Finally, at around 12 months ds started sleeping better. He even slept 12 hours straight one day last week. Without nursing and cosleeping I would have gone crazy. Don't talk to non-AP parents about it, it will make you feel worse.

I promise the time passes by quickly and you'll not regret the marathon nursing sessions. This is more common than you'd think. 9 months is a breaking point for many.

Do you have a spare room for your dh? Or even the couch will give him more rest by the sound of it.