Waldorf & the gifted child?

[Icequeen_in_ak]

Has anyone with a gifted child sought Waldorf education?

My daughter was just accepted into a new Waldorf charter school in our area, so I'm left deciding if this is a good fit for her or not.

For any of you that have, what were your experiences?

My concern is that as a kindergartner, she's been doing 4-6th grade math all year and reading is at the same level. The rest of her curriculum has been 2-4th grade. I'm concerned that she'll stagnate in a Waldorf setting academically, BUT I see a huge plus in getting her to explore her creative side more as well. I'm just unsure if it's the right type of program for her and would love to get input from anyone who has been through it.

[kittykat2481]

Originally Posted by Icequeen_in_ak

Has anyone with a gifted child sought Waldorf education?

My daughter was just accepted into a new Waldorf charter school in our area, so I'm left deciding if this is a good fit for her or not.

For any of you that have, what were your experiences?

My concern is that as a kindergartner, she's been doing 4-6th grade math all year and reading is at the same level. The rest of her curriculum has been 2-4th grade. I'm concerned that she'll stagnate in a Waldorf setting academically, BUT I see a huge plus in getting her to explore her creative side more as well. I'm just unsure if it's the right type of program for her and would love to get input from anyone who has been through it.

How do you think she would react to an environment where the children were just being introduced to letters/reading? Would she be bored? Would she be understanding of the children who were just learning the things she's known for a long time? With such a discrepancy in her abilities vs. the class, are you setting yourself up for discipline issues?

To be fair, I ask these questions with the bias of being a Montessori mom myself. I think Montessori is wonderful for children with abilities on various levels, especially when those abilities are far beyond their peers.

[Icequeen_in_ak]

Honestly, I think she would be bored to tears and would be disruptive (the whole reason we kept her out of public school). However, if the material was presented in a way that was more creative, she may engage. But if it was a "sit down and lets learn our letters" setting, she would lose it.

It's so hard...because I want her to have the ability to explore her creative/imaginative side, but knowing she has SUCH a passion for mathematics, Science and reading, I'm just not sure it's the best fit for her.

My concern is that she seems to be SO serious and I was hoping this type of environment would make her slow down and explore the world a little more, versus frantically googling every topic she wants to conquer. BUT, as my husband puts it... academics IS her passion... why take that away from her? I see his point, but on the other hand, she has her entire life to master algorithms, I'd like her to explore her childhood a little more.

[karne]

You would need to feel very comfortable putting your dd into an educational setting that has predetermined what a child should know and be learning about at each class level. This information will have been determined to be developmentally appropriate based on the psychic musings of Rudolph Steiner, and some co-opted developmental milestones. This is not a system set up to meet your child where she's at academically, and respect that process. In fact, accelerated learning and abilities are often viewed negatively.

There are many ways to help a child explore their artistic sides.

[daytripper75]

Here is a thread from a while ago.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hlight=waldorf

[loraxc]

You may want to search the archives, as this has come up before.

I have friends whose kids are in Waldorf, and from what I have heard and read, there is no way I'd put my kid in one. I don't think it's a good fit for academically voracious kids, in most cases.

I remember your daughter and how advanced she is....I am thinking you are going to need to think outside the box in some big ways for her. K started off well for us here, but the bloom is off the rose, and my DD is not where yours is.

[kittykat2481]

Have you looked into Montessori at all? A good M school would allow her to socialize and benefit from the imagination of her peers, while still focusing intently on areas of interest to her without holding her back.

Also, there are always art classes, ballet classes, visits to museums, body painting with bath soaps, and a million and one other ways to invite her to "loosen up" without forcing her to give up her passion, which of course is all things "academic". In fact, she would probably really love some art appreciation and a visit to the natural history museum - sort of a marriage of playfulness and learning.

[carmel23]

Originally Posted by loraxc

You may want to search the archives, as this has come up before.

I have friends whose kids are in Waldorf, and from what I have heard and read, there is no way I'd put my kid in one. I don't think it's a good fit for academically voracious kids, in most cases.

No way would I put my child in a Waldorf school. We have a Waldorf charter in our neighborhood, and the kids are sweet and imaginative and fun to play with, but the 2nd graders talk about how they can't read yet. Formal reading instruction doesn't begin until 3rd grade. Which is fine and all, but what do you do if your child has been reading since preschool? What happens when she wants to talk to someone about what she read?

Plus the teachers have this weird method of labeling the kids...

back to add after taking care of baby:

Honestly, I think a Waldorf school would be damaging to a gifted kid. I think the Waldorf philosophy would reinforce or create the idea that there was something wrong with the gifted child.

[kittykat2481]

Originally Posted by carmel23

Plus the teachers have this weird method of labeling the kids...

Just curious - what is this? I'm sometimes fascinated by the Waldorf method, but not in a positive way lol. I have the hardest time understanding it so I just can't help but read and try to make sense of it.

[ollyoxenfree]

I would ask the Waldorf administrators and teachers a lot of questions about how they view your dd's abilities and how they will work with her in school.

Academic giftedness is an integral part of her person. If they welcome and nurture that, lovely. If they dismiss it, or disparage it, or view it as unnatural, I would look for something that is a better fit.

[MJB]

There is no way I'd consider it for my gifted child. He's 4 and reading at a 4th grade level... Waldorf discourages reading until 7. What exactly would he do with the next 3 years of his life? Obviously you can't keep someone from reading. I also don't like how they teach art, the way they think of children/childhood, or anthroposophy in general. I think Steiner was off on pretty much everything and he had ideas about pretty much everything so that's a lot to be wrong about.
However I think a public Waldorf school might differ dramatically from a "real" Waldorf school as it would have to meet certain standards. But my gut reaction is "NO".

[carmel23]

Originally Posted by kittykat2481

Just curious - what is this? I'm sometimes fascinated by the Waldorf method, but not in a positive way lol. I have the hardest time understanding it so I just can't help but read and try to make sense of it.

it is this stuff:

http://www.openwaldorf.com/temperaments.html

and it is often applied to the children, not because of who they are, but because of family circumstances (divorce, etc.)

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by MJB

I think Steiner was off on pretty much everything and he had ideas about pretty much everything so that's a lot to be wrong about.

Made me laugh out loud!!

Originally Posted by carmel23

it is this stuff:

http://www.openwaldorf.com/temperaments.html

and it is often applied to the children, not because of who they are, but because of family circumstances (divorce, etc.)

That's fascinating, if not more than a little disturbing. I also had a few chuckles as I read it (Sanguine - "memory like a sieve" Heh!). I actually tried to figure out how to categorize my dc, but gave up. It's like some kind of astrology of the human physique.

[whatsnextmom]

Waldorf is for the family that truely believes in that style of education and has children that are a good fit. Now, you say this is a Waldorf Charter meaning it's still a public school correct? I would find out if this is more a "Waldorf enriched" school that uses some of the same structure and practices or it's a school with certified Waldorf teachers trained in their specific religion and following the principals to the letter. This could make a tremendous difference in how your child responds.

We have 2 friends that pulled their gifted kids out of a true private Waldorf school in 1st grade (well, Waldorf does 2 years of kindergarten so they were technically 2nd year kindies as opposed to 1st graders.) The family loved the idea. They loved the teachers. They loved the community. However, their kids were academically driven and early academics had no place in their Waldorf school. The kids were in fact, feeling defective because they desired to read and do workbooks and it was so against what was taught at the school. Now, does this mean that NO gifted children with thrive there? Of course not! I just would not send a child who seeks academic stimulation in a traditional form there.

Personally, I question the "creativity" a bit. They do produce some beautiful art with their method of mixing colors and such. However, the art, while different from your typical schools, is pretty uniform in itself. They do encourage imaginative play but they also "direct" it as well.... on dress-up days they can be bakers, candle makers, trolls, ect. My DD who spent 2 full years of her life in a Superman cape would not have been allowed to play that in a Waldorf school. It is a very creative and imaginative place but it's not unrestricted creativity as the brochures sell.

That said, there are aspects that I find attractive, especially for the older ranges. Certainly some of the things they do with middle and high schoolers would be more challenging and appropriate than what is offered my own middle schooler. I could see it being very difficult to transfer over though.

Because this is a charter, a public school, they are still held accountable to the state. This may change their timeline and belief on advanced academics profoundly. Check it out and see what they say.

[loraxc]

I would find out if this is more a "Waldorf enriched" school that uses some of the same structure and practices or it's a school with certified Waldorf teachers trained in their specific religion and following the principals to the letter. This could make a tremendous difference in how your child responds.

This is a very good point--I missed the "charter" aspect. My DD actually attended a play-based, nature-focused preschool that used some Waldorf ideas and toys and had some Waldorf influences, but was by NO means "Waldorf." It was fine.

[carmel23]

Originally Posted by loraxc

This is a very good point--I missed the "charter" aspect. My DD actually attended a play-based, nature-focused preschool that used some Waldorf ideas and toys and had some Waldorf influences, but was by NO means "Waldorf." It was fine.

this is true, and our neighborhood charter school has been described as "waldorf light." But still, the teachers are trained in this philosophy, and believe it. There is now a battle going on at the school between the board and the teachers. The Board members want it to be more Waldorf inspired, and the teachers want it to be more Waldorf with a capital W.

The biggest problem is that in traditional W schools, you stay with the same teacher for a long time (longer then in Montessori which is 3 years). Some families don't like this and want to have the option of a different teacher.

It all sounds very unpleasant to me.

But every school is different. And it may be a mixture of Waldorf and other methods, and not that strict.

[elmh23]

I have a friend who just put her kids in to a Waldorf School. The school is very controlling IMO. My friend signed a contract saying that they wouldn't use media (music, computers, tv) during the school week and no sugar at all (inc. in breads) on school nights. From what she's said about the "art" time, the teacher tells them how to paint, what to paint and what colors to paint with. There is no individulization.

Also, my friends daughter is an average almost 5 year old who knows her alphabet and can write her name. My friend is REALLY worried about her daughter being shamed BY THE TEACHER for knowing these things. I have a feeling that a child reading at your daughters level would have a VERY hard time in Waldorf.

[PinkCedar]

Some Waldorf schools can be really beautiful experiences. Others are why it is so easy to find Waldorf recovery groups all over the internet.

Can you sit in the classroom? It would be good for you to witness a day or two.

If it is a really gentle and imaginative setting, then I suggest you send her and do the academic stuff at home.

If you do not approve of the way it flows, then obviously do not send her.

I teach my kids at home, and they love the Waldorf approach early on. All of my kids have gotten bored with it while still young, and my gifted children even earlier. But they really did love it for those early years.

By second grade, all of my kids much preferred a Montessori approach.

Even my gifted 12 year old is happy with what he remembers of our early Waldorf stuff though - and he is full blown academic now.

[eepster]

All schools of any philosophy are going to vary one to the next, so just b/c Waldorf is generally not great for gifted kids doesn't necessarily mean that this particular situation won't work.

IIRC, you are currently home schooling her. Could you look at this as an opportunity for her to get some outside art instruction and play time, but continue academics at home.

If they aren't super strict Waldorfers who believe your DD has lost her soul b/c she learned to read too early, and they haven't really started academics at the school yet, her academic level may just not really be relevant to what she will get out of the school. I think that 1st and 2nd grade in waldorf schools mostly involves fiber crafts and stories about fairies.

Can she try it for a couple of weeks to see if she likes it?

[emmaegbert]

My son is in his second year of Waldorf kindy and he loves it. He was recently tested for admission to some gifted programs so we've recently been made aware of his scores. He is not profoundly gifted, more like highly gifted in visual-spatial areas and moderately gifted in verbal measures. Waldorf school has been a great experience for him and I am so thankful he has been there rather than a more mainstream school. In fact, I so did not want him anywhere that would make him lose interest in "academics" by presenting them in a dull way.

I see that there is a wide variety of academic ability and interest among his classmates. they are not a bunch of automatons who think black is evil and early reading negatively affects your internal organs (things I've read about from people who've had bad experiences). Some of his classmates can read, many write their names (though they are not "supposed" to, the teachers NEVER say anything about it). At his school I asked the teachers ahead of time how they handle kids who are interested in reading, math on their own and the teachers were very realistic about the fact that some kids at that age will be spontaneously doing those things, but that its just not part of the school life for kindy. It has not been controlling or "weird" for him, though perhaps our school is more laid back than some.

That said, I wouldn't keep him there for the grades, but we're moving anyway, yada yada so I haven't really looked at it in depth.

I agree with eepster. It depends on the school and teachers and the specific situation, not just the pedagogical method. But with Waldorf you're going to want to go into it carefully, making sure that your daughter will be accommodated.

FWIW, I've visited a number of M schools, some of which looked wonderful, others not so much.