On m/c and conception

[MrsTC]

I saw my astrologer last night. We talked about babies. It's p!ss!ng me all the way off that my marriage sucked and I had to get out of it and find someone else to have babies with, start a relationship from scratch, waste all these fertile years NOT having babies... It's all I want to do, really. I am here to mother, WHAT is with this path, this wait? Grrr....

He said some things that put some peace in my heart, and since both of these topics (conceiving and miscarriage) are hot around here I thought I'd share.

First, if you didn't already know, the moment of your birth, of everyone's respective births, the time, place, and date, provides a numerological and astrological map of why you're here, what you'll be doing, etc. So the moment of your baby's birth is important. It's not random. Even babies who come early, by scheduled c/s, etc. They all know, they all choose.

On miscarriage, the sense of time where spirits are is different than our time on this plane, and sometimes they realize they hopped in at the wrong time and will retreat to come back with better timing (conceiving the next cycle after a m/c, anyone?). Sometimes they come into a body and realize that the body would have a defect and it's not in the parents' karma to go through having a child with big challenges, so they retreat and try again another time. Sometimes they see that there's something going on in the parents' lives that they don't want to interfere with, karma being worked out, and they choose to come back or try again later. Sometimes there are just plain accidents. It happens when you're dealing with the fragile and brutish and imperfect human condition.

I think my m/c happened because my baby saw what a mess it would be coming into with my failing marriage. But who's to say, because I know a woman with a wicked mess of a failing marriage who just got pg by surprise...there's a reason. There's always a reason.

What I took from this was a renewed sense of patience and calm about the process of ttc. Really, there's nothing we can do about it. Babies will come when they want to/should.

I told him about how I could *feel* my babies around me, and he grinned like a buddha kind of like that, glowing with love with understanding, with knowing...so I know, you should know, honor your connection to your babies whether they're here or not. It's real. My friend told me once about dating this guy who was her soulmate, but he didn't want kids, and she knew, and told him, she felt she had a couple more in her, so they didn't end up together, and she went on to marry someone else and have her two wonderful, gorgeous little girls. Trust what you feel?

Try and find a sense of peace of mind and heart about the wait. I sometimes think this forum gets a little bit out of hand with the obsessing over cycles and symptoms and temps and testing, because really what, WHAT can we mere humans do about any of it? He did say that there are times where conceiving is more likely, and the parents can call the baby through, but by and large, it's the baby's choice, the baby's karma s/he is coming into a body to work through, and they'll come when they're supposed to. When they're ready.

You wouldn't want to rush your sweet little baby, would you? Okay, some of you would. (I would)

Sisters, (and brothers, if there are any gay men hanging out here while they wait for a surrogate to conceive), there's a lesson/karma in the waiting for us, there's a reason babies come when they come. Sometimes our timing don't match up, we're ready for them before they're ready to be here, and we can experience suffering in the wait. I turn to buddhist teachings about detaching from want because it brings suffering, that helps (a little)....

I guess that's my message.

Peace to you as you heal your heart after a loss or wait for your babies to pick their time to come here to be with you.

[kalamos23]

Thank you for writing this - I've been trying to look at the other side of things lately and wait for my River baby to come through. ((((hugs))) to you and hope our babies find us soon

[MeepyCat]

I'm glad that you found this conversation so comforting. Had someone tried to tell me what he apparently told you, I would have had to call my DH to come get me - I would have been far too furious to get myself safely home.

[kalamos23]

Meepy - why would you be furious? The way I'm taking it is stressing over m/c and what not ultimately will not make me any more pregnant. That's not to say I won't be doing things that will help me get pregnant (dtd, testing for reasons why we keep m/c, eating right, etc) but the obsessing over it just stresses me out. I'm trying to look at the positive and enjoy the time I have with my DD right now, and feel blessed that I do have a daughter when so many women don't even get the chance to have one child.

[MeepyCat]

Kalamos, I do not think that the astrologer in question could have come up with a more hurtful set of things to say to people suffering from infertility or pregnancy loss if he had done a doctoral thesis on it.

I lost a pregnancy at 11 weeks shortly before I conceived my daughter, who was born early because of placenta previa. I don't think that the baby I lost is the same as the baby I have now. That implies that I shouldn't grieve that loss at all, since I have the baby and it's the same baby... which I don't buy. The astrologer described above then goes on to make statements that suggest that my living daughter chose to cause a hemorrhage that could have killed both of us, just so she could be born at exactly the right moment... one month to the day after the due date she'd have had if she hadn't decided her timing was just a touch off that first time. In short, per this astrologist, my daughter has been yanking me around since before she was conceived. For karmic reasons, which is to say, I deserve it. What awesome thoughts those are to take into my relationship with my beloved child.

And the whole thing about infertility? Sorry, infertility is a biological problem and sometimes does require a medical solution. I know and love a lot of people who either wouldn't have had children without help or wouldn't be on this planet without help. There are some causes of infertility that will not magically fix themselves if people are just patient.

By all means, be positive! Enjoy time with your children, don't obsess, eat right... all good things. I try to do them myself. But I'm not assisted in those quests by the things the astrologer is reported to have said.

[kalamos23]

Ok, yeah I agree with you when you put it that way. It's amazing though that we could read the same thing and get 2 different perceptions.

[SML27]

OP, it is admirable that you are doing all that you can to stay positive in the face of adversity, and that you are taking active steps to make yourself as healthy as you can to increase your chances of having a healthy and happy baby.

I respectfully disagree with everything else you say. An astrologer cannot comment on the particular cause of m/c nor stillbirth. An astrologer is not a suitable person to counsel women on infertility issues.

If I were to state exactly what was said in your post to two friends on mine who recently lost babies at 40 weeks, and two days old, they would turn their backs on me for life.

Sensitive things to say to women who have lost babies do not include "it was their time" or "it was meant to be". These two things are mentioned time and time again as things not to say.

Be well.

[bri276]

I've had six miscarriages and I know the reason, it's genetic. I ALSO have a daughter born with a version of the genetic disorder that caused the miscarriages.

I'd think long and hard about any belief system that expresses the idea that disabled children are here because of their parent's karma. While I do believe that there are really amazing astrologists out there and I've had natal charts done that were astounding (and included the fact that it would be difficult for me to have children- well before I was even of reproductive age), my own spiritual beliefs would never include the idea that a disabilities are caused by some kind of karmic retribution, and frankly, a lot of what he said was simply his own opinion rather than anything remotely related to astrology.

It's hard. We all want a reason for our losses and to find some shred of positivity in why we're going through what we're going through. But it's important to examine our beliefs and what they're really saying about the world around us and whether there's actual harm in a belief that seems comforting on the surface (i.e., disabled children are punishment, there's no way any tragedy can be avoided so why try, etc). Just food for thought. Gently.

[Stevi]

Whoa... Personally, I don't see why what MrsTC posted is so upsetting to everyone.

First, she is simply trying to share her experience with anyone who who believes as she does. She did not post this to hurt anyone.

Second, what she wrote is no different then someone saying they have decided to let God take over and give them a child in His time.

I have had two miscarriages myself, they are very difficult things to deal with. We never get over them. I would love to believe that my babies aren't dead, but, my beliefs don't allow me to do so. That doesn't mean that I should be angry with those who voice their beliefs, in the hopes of relieving someone elses pain.

Okay, I'll step off of my soap box now.

[pinkgeek]

I personally haven't been in the position of having lost a child, so I can't speak from that point of view, but I think that Stevi has it right. The message that MrsTC wrote is based on her own beliefs and feelings, the same as when someone rights that they are putting things in God's hands. As someone with similar beliefs as MrsTC, I'm don't think her intent was to insult or offend, but at the same time, I can sort of understand where some of the posts are coming from. I don't always feel warm and fuzzy when people post about putting their journey in God's hand or that they are letting something follow God's will, since that isn't the same spiritual path I follow. MrsTC, you are likely to get a very different response by posting in the Spirituality forum, but please know that I found your message and experience interesting and comforting (despite not being in/near your shoes.)

[MrsTC]

I meant to share comfort where I found it. I guess I mostly upset people instead?

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I didn't mean to be insensitive.

I don't see at ALL how what I wrote about is worth getting "furious" or upset over.

The biggest issue was in speaking to babies born with bodily defect (insert preferable PC term here)? Challenges? Idk. Some day when we all die, we'll know the reason for it all, and in the meantime, I'm not going to engage in a discussion/debate about it because it would be taking what I said in a different direction than I meant it.

I keep typing more and deleting it. Probably for the best.

Won't be sharing anything else here anytime soon. Sheesh.

[Stevi]

PinkGeek... I'm an Atheist, so, yes, sometimes when things are posted about God's will, etc... I get a little irked. But, I don't take it as a personal insult. I take it as it was (hopefully) intended, as another TTCer learning to cope with their own issues and/or sharing what they feel are comforting words.

And this is from a person who is really tired of hearing "bless you" when someone sneezes!!!

[MI_Dawn]

Originally Posted by Stevi

Whoa... Personally, I don't see why what MrsTC posted is so upsetting to everyone.

First, she is simply trying to share her experience with anyone who who believes as she does. She did not post this to hurt anyone.

Second, what she wrote is no different then someone saying they have decided to let God take over and give them a child in His time.

I have had two miscarriages myself, they are very difficult things to deal with. We never get over them. I would love to believe that my babies aren't dead, but, my beliefs don't allow me to do so. That doesn't mean that I should be angry with those who voice their beliefs, in the hopes of relieving someone elses pain.

Okay, I'll step off of my soap box now.

You know, sometimes we have the best of intentions, and we still say hurtful things. My son was stillborn at 39 weeks, and I can't count how many people said things like, "It was meant to be," or "He's in a better place" or "He'll come back to you," or "You'll see him again."

None of it was comforting to me. I think, perhaps, it comforted the person speaking the words much more than it did me. It was THEIR belief system they were imposing on me. There's a lot of assumption in those kinds of statements.

And one thing I've learned about loss is that you can't assume anything about how someone else is going to feel. It's a quagmire, and we are all very different people.

But something else I learned is that most people do really only have the best of intentions when they say things like the above. They are doing the best they possibly can in the moment - a very hard, hard moment, for everyone involved. And their hearts are usually in the right place, even if their words aren't.

[jeminijad]

Originally Posted by SML27

I respectfully disagree with everything else you say. An astrologer cannot comment on the particular cause of m/c nor stillbirth. An astrologer is not a suitable person to counsel women on infertility issues.

Be well.

Well stated.

[mommytoallh]

I gave to add my $.02 here. First of all I don't believe op suggested that we should all agree with her. She was simply telling everyone what has given her comfort during a very difficult time. Maybe she felt if she shared her experience maybe she could help someone else during a difficult time. I don't agree with what she wrote, but I sure am happy she has found some peace. This is a place where we can come to share the things in our lives that are important. I know I would be hurt if I opened myself up to something I felt strongly about and something that helped me and was told I was inconsiderate, ignorant, and insensitive.

[pinkgeek]

Originally Posted by SML27

I respectfully disagree with everything else you say. An astrologer cannot comment on the particular cause of m/c nor stillbirth. An astrologer is not a suitable person to counsel women on infertility issues.

Actually, depending on your beliefs, they may be just as suitable as someone choosing to talk to a priest or rabbi.

[Stevi]

Originally Posted by mommytoallh

I gave to add my $.02 here. First of all I don't believe op suggested that we should all agree with her. She was simply telling everyone what has given her comfort during a very difficult time. Maybe she felt if she shared her experience maybe she could help someone else during a difficult time. I don't agree with what she wrote, but I sure am happy she has found some peace. This is a place where we can come to share the things in our lives that are important. I know I would be hurt if I opened myself up to something I felt strongly about and something that helped me and was told I was inconsiderate, ignorant, and insensitive.

Agreed.

[SML27]

Originally Posted by pinkgeek

Actually, depending on your beliefs, they may be just as suitable as someone choosing to talk to a priest or rabbi.

Exactly.

[FreeRangeMama]

On miscarriage, the sense of time where spirits are is different than our time on this plane, and sometimes they realize they hopped in at the wrong time and will retreat to come back with better timing (conceiving the next cycle after a m/c, anyone?).

I had a dream of a baby once. This baby said, "not yet mama, but the time is soon.". I knew at that moment that I would conceive and m/c, but that my baby would come soon. It was odd though as it doesn't necessarily jive with my spiritual beliefs.

Anyway, I did end up pg, m/c, and on the next cycle O'd earlier than normal (only to conceive on bd from 5 days pre-O). I never thought about that dream until one day I was bathing my 4 mo old ds. I realized that HE was that baby. The same beautiful blue eyes, and perfect cherubic face. It was like recognizing an old friend.

I don't think anyone has to believe in what the OP has said, but her beliefs deserve just as much RESPECT as any other belief system. I think perhaps those who are offended are allowing their own personal perspective to colour the words which aren't hurtful in and of themselves.

OP, did the astrologer give any indication of what your timeline is?

Interesting stuff!

[Tear78]

Originally Posted by MrsTC

He said some things that put some peace in my heart, and since both of these topics (conceiving and miscarriage) are hot around here I thought I'd share.

MrsTC, I am glad that these words helped you find peace in your heart with a painful experience. We all deserve to find and pursue peace in the ways that help us, since we all are different. I know that you wanted to share this sense of peace, and I hope that you please, please stick around because I know how wonderful you are.

Ladies, I totally agree that we should be able to disagree, and share frustration, since there are sooooo many different experiences with the sadness and pain of TTC in this forum. Let's try to remember that MrsTC was sharing words that helped her through pain and sadness. That's what this forum is for, right? If we disagree, let's try to do it in a way that doesn't leave anybody feeling attacked. You're all wonderful, loving ladies going through a tough, tough rollercoaster.