Food for thought re:CIO

[zamia7]

So DH and I have been back and forth over the topic of CIO for a long time now. We are both horribly sleep deprived, though it is getting slightly better, but not much. DH wants to do CIO, I refuse. I don't care how tired I am, I think its a form of child abuse. I have let him cry in his crib, but that was for his own safety when I was starting to feel out of control. ANYWAY, as moms, especially first timers like myself, we always get so much unsolicited advice. I was thinking today about all the people who have told me to let him CIO, and then I look at their children, alot of them adult children. Every single one of them is effed up. Every single one has some sort of emotional/social issue. "it doesn't hurt them" "i did it and my kids turned out fine" I want to say, actually your kid is totally messed up and I pray to God mine doesn't turn out like that.

Those are my thoughts this evening, as my child is sleeping going on 45 minutes now.

Today, he took a 2 hour and 15 minute nap without me. I nursed him to sleep on his full size bed (I think its hilarious that my 7 month old has a full size bed --on the floor) and left him there to nap. Saturday he did 2 hours by himself. And he is starting to be able to settle himself once in a while. Still a lot of night waking, but we have progress.

[abiyhayil]

Babyhood is such a short season with a great impact on both parent and baby. I'm at peace knowing my babies have as much mama as they need. Hang in there, sleeping does get better! For my DS it was 18 mo nearly right on the nose

[ssh]

I think of the 4 years we co-slept and the almost 4 years my DD nursed to sleep as an investment in her future mental health. And it was nice and snuggly even when I was sleep deprived.

[EarthMamaToBe]

i read an article just today that says CIO actually damages babys brains.

[Adallae]

I wanted to say congrats on the progress your 7 month old is making as far as napping alone. What does your DH think of that? If your baby figured out how to nap alone, without being forced to cry, doesn't that show him that he doesn't need to be taught how to sleep, that he will do it when he's ready?

[BMG580]

I don't CIO and I really can't imagine how anyone can choose to "sleep train" their baby with the method. BUT, I think you are really going way out on a limb to assume that CIO done for short periods during infancy/toddlerhood have somehow damaged a person to the extent that they are a non-functional adult. I know a lot of irresponsible, lazy adults and there is far more to their situation than one small parenting choice made 20+ years ago.

I always feel sort of sad when I see these kinds of threads. Just like with formula and some breastfeeding advocates, what I read is: "I'm such a great parent that no matter what I will sacrifice to the bitter end for my child and those lazy sods chose differently because they just don't love their child as much as I do mine and so their kid is going to be a total loss in life". Ugh. No wonder so many people just shut out alternative voices in the parenting community, they are tired of being made out to be lazy and uncaring parents.

Driving with a child in the car while suffering from extreme sleep deprivation is probably much more dangerous than the occasional bout of CIO. Also, infants and young children who do not get enough sleep also can develop brain issues. A child who cannot be gently led to self-soothe and stay asleep long enough without outside stimulus to reorder themselves back into sleep mode can also suffer developmental set backs. Once again, I am NOT a proponent of CIO but the over-generalization of its consequences in the OP is over the top. JMO.

[zebu]

What I've observed is that CIO is often (not always) part of a parenting style that is very controlling all around. Each baby is an individual and I think that CIO alone will damage a few (so is a reason not to do it at all), but in most cases I think that it is just one piece of the puzzle.

[ElliesMomma]

i agree with the PP that CIO is often done by a controlling-type of parent.

to the other PP who said it is going out on a limb to assume that CIO damages their brains... having just read The Science of Parenting... it does do substantial harm b/c babies are born with something like 200 billion brain cells (or is it 300 billion? anyways, a LOT) but very few connections. the connections are made by the baby's earliest experiences. the parts of the brain that are stimulated make the connections.

and there are three basic "sections" of the brain... 1) the reptilian brain, which is common across reptiles and all mammals including humans; 2) the mammaliam brain, which is evolved further than reptiles; and finally 3) the highest functioning human brain, which is very recently evolved.

CIO is damaging b/c it stimulates the lower parts of the brain of babies (reptilian and/or mammalian), causing those parts to make connections (the parts of the brain for fear, fight or flight, etc.), whilest the higher functioning human-only part of the brain is not receiving the safe comforting signals and thusly not building connections in those parts.

i don't know if i explained that very well... but it made sense to me when i read it! and the book is very highly annotated by scientific studies, etc.

[Chamomile Girl]

I wonder how many of us here on MDC are the product of CIO? Probably many. I know I am.

Not that I am a fan of said method but its something to keep in mind when rightousness strikes.

[happysmileylady]

Originally Posted by ElliesMomma

i agree with the PP that CIO is often done by a controlling-type of parent.

to the other PP who said it is going out on a limb to assume that CIO damages their brains... having just read The Science of Parenting... it does do substantial harm b/c babies are born with something like 200 billion brain cells (or is it 300 billion? anyways, a LOT) but very few connections. the connections are made by the baby's earliest experiences. the parts of the brain that are stimulated make the connections.

and there are three basic "sections" of the brain... 1) the reptilian brain, which is common across reptiles and all mammals including humans; 2) the mammaliam brain, which is evolved further than reptiles; and finally 3) the highest functioning human brain, which is very recently evolved.

CIO is damaging b/c it stimulates the lower parts of the brain of babies (reptilian and/or mammalian), causing those parts to make connections (the parts of the brain for fear, fight or flight, etc.), whilest the higher functioning human-only part of the brain is not receiving the safe comforting signals and thusly not building connections in those parts.

i don't know if i explained that very well... but it made sense to me when i read it! and the book is very highly annotated by scientific studies, etc.

I wonder how something like this applies to those babies who have colic or to those who simply scream themselves to sleep regardless of what the parent does.

My younger dd probably had some colic as a young baby (2 to 4 months or so) But her crying from 5pm to midnight was nothing compared to trying to get older dd to sleep at night. For months and months I was up until 2 and 3 and 4am rocking and walking and patting and letting her scream because I just couldn't take it any more and walking and driving and singing and feeding and everything else you are supposed to do. I can't count how many nights the two of us only got to sleep because we both simply passed out in the rocker/recliner. Once she fell asleep, she usually STTN, from 3 or whenever she fell asleep until like 9 or 10am, but getting her there was awful. I can't imagine that that was all that much more healthy than a parent letting their child cry alone for 10 minutes, 20 minutes, half an hour for a couple of weeks.

Of course, now at 14, she sleeps all the time

Another thing to keep in mind is that the term CIO applies to a lot of different techniques. I don't think they all fit the same mold though. It's one thing to lay the child down for the night, let her cry for half an hour, with the monitor on, listening, going in when you hear the cry change from "I want out" to "SOMETHING'S WRONG." It's another to drop the child in the crib and close the door and not turn on the monitor and walk away and not check on the child for an hour.

[Mommy2Haley]

Baby steps.

We coslept with our first and around 8 months (mid winter) I had a breakdown. I was totally out of control at that point and let her cry for awhile while I calmed down. She was a different child the next day - clingy, whiny, and distraught. I knew at the time that this was the best course of action (I was totally out of control with sleep deprivation and frustration) but the effects on my child were HORRIBLE.

We've taken baby steps with moving her into her own bed/own room. It started with her own bed next to mine. Now she's in her own bed in our room but there's an "aisle" between our beds. Next step (when she's ready) is to move the bed to her room.

And then I get to do it all over again with #2 (who sleeps 1/2 the night in the cosleeper and 1/2 the night with me).

[GardenStream]

Originally Posted by happysmileylady

Another thing to keep in mind is that the term CIO applies to a lot of different techniques. I don't think they all fit the same mold though. It's one thing to lay the child down for the night, let her cry for half an hour, with the monitor on, listening, going in when you hear the cry change from "I want out" to "SOMETHING'S WRONG." It's another to drop the child in the crib and close the door and not turn on the monitor and walk away and not check on the child for an hour.

Thanks for pointing that out. Just because a child cries before they go to sleep does not mean that the parents are using CIO. My first needed to cry before sleep. If I would try to comfort him he became hysterical and it made it worse. From the time he was about 8 months old until about 2 and a half he would cry to 5 to 10 minutes before he would settle down to sleep.

Originally Posted by Mommy2Haley

Baby steps.

We coslept with our first and around 8 months (mid winter) I had a breakdown. I was totally out of control at that point and let her cry for awhile while I calmed down. She was a different child the next day - clingy, whiny, and distraught. I knew at the time that this was the best course of action (I was totally out of control with sleep deprivation and frustration) but the effects on my child were HORRIBLE.

We've taken baby steps with moving her into her own bed/own room. It started with her own bed next to mine. Now she's in her own bed in our room but there's an "aisle" between our beds. Next step (when she's ready) is to move the bed to her room.

And then I get to do it all over again with #2 (who sleeps 1/2 the night in the cosleeper and 1/2 the night with me).

That's exactly how we did it. We went from co-sleeping, to crib next to bed with the front panel removed, then the front panel went on, then the crib was moved a few feet away from the bed, then the move into their own room. For DS 1, it started at about 4 months and was completed at 8 months. DS 2 it started at 5 months and was completed at 12 months. I was still nursing them when they woke during the night. Actual sleeping through the night happened at 14 months for both of them.

Each baby is different and you need to do what you feel comfortable with. IMO you have to make a compromise between your needs and the baby's needs. You start with small steps and slowly get there. Yes there are some tough nights, but IME it's no where near as traumatic as making major changes quickly.

[zamia7]

This was simply an observation I have made, and I am sure there are many other factors, but just a random thought. I by no means think I am a better parent than anyone. I have plenty of faults of my own. I'm sure CIO has its place, and as far as colicky babies crying all the time, there parents usually comfort them. guess ill stop posting thoughts that i have.

[akind1]

a couple thoughts:

first I agree with PP that cio is part of a parenting style. the sort of CIO that my parents did is similiar to what another PP suggested (but without monitors, our house was small and trust me, you could hear) - listen for changes in the cry because there is a difference - and also never for more than 10 minutes. You can tell when a baby is crying because they are scared or fearful, or when they are just plain MAD, or as DS sometimes does at nap time, when they are just testing the water to see what happens. I do think I turned out fine - but I room shared with my mother, and then with my parents, until I was probably 2-3 years old. My sister had her own room from the beginning and has always had more of a need for attention, and a deep-seated fear of abandonment.

Second thought - there is a difference between CIO - where baby is crying and no needs being met - and baby crying in arms, or in the car, etc. These the baby can hear your voice, sense your presence, they are just plain not happy, and generally nothing will make them better until they just wear themselves out. But I don't think they become fearful in these instances. and perhaps that makes difference in brain development.

DS is 5 months and just does not sleep well in arms, he keeps waking. now, lay him in the co-sleeper and he is out like a light! I miss the cuddle time though.

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by zamia7

... guess ill stop posting thoughts that i have.

No, you just need to understand that when you post thoughts publicly you are going to get replies, some of which may be in disagreement with yours. I see you are new to MDC, welcome aboard!