Drawing the line between fun and image-harmful girl activities

[Hokulele]

Sorry for the title - I couldn't think how best to describe this.

I have two daughters and they are both *very* girlie. They like to dress up, they like to drape themselves in jewelery and they love girl-stuff like barrettes etc. I can totally understand that - at their ages I was into all that too. But I'm a pretty natural person - I wear no make up, I don't spend hours on my hair etc. I'd rather wear a great natural fiber shirt than a high fashion designer label anything.

Recently I got a pedicure (something I never do, was a gift from a friend) and the pampering was SO nice. The whole time I kept thinking how much DD1 would love that. She would just totally get into having a simple salon manicure - she LOVES having painted nails etc. we do it at home every once in a great while but I think doing it in a salon would be such a treat.

I live in the south. Lots of salons around here offer beauty classes for kids as young as four and five years old. All the gyms and dance places offer cheerleading. There is pageant stuff everywhere - every grade in every school has a queen (ie "Miss Fourth Grade, Long Meadow Elementary"...for every grade!!!)

I'm worried about where and how to draw the line between allowing my girls to indulge in that girlie stuff they are into without letting it become essential to them. I want them to grow up understanding that while that stuff is fun, it isn't important. And being beautiful isn't about caking on the make up and using clouds of hair spray.

I really want to take DD1 to get a manicure. But I am hesitating because what if I'm just feeding her into a life of thinking that is important? Am I making sense?

Thoughts, comments?

[hermionesmum]

I think you should go ahead and do the fun girly stuff with her. It sounds like you're a very good role model of how not to let it take over, and I'm sure you'll give them plenty of opportunities to enjoy other activities, too.

[justthinkn]

If she's into this kind of stuff anyway, I think enjoying those kinds of experiences with her, but modeling that you enjoy them as an occasional treat, not a necessity of life, that it's about enjoyment and not a pressure to conform or project a certain image, will be good for her and your relationship.

[laohaire]

I've never been into the girly stuff. DD is only 4 but she likes the girl stuff, princesses and all. I cringe about the commercialism - a lot. But I don't mind that she likes pretty things and dressing up.

To me, the issue is not about dressing up and being pretty - it's the context, the specific value you place on it. If you feel good getting pampered, you feel confident when you have your hair all done up, you have lots of fun trying on clothes, it's all good.

If you feel like your value as a human being is centered around those things, there's the problem. I knew a lady who told me she got up every morning before her husband to make sure she had all her makeup on and such, she would NEVER let him see her "undone." And he was very cool with that, he was happy with that. To me, that's problematic. If she can't be her real self around her husband, how is she ever going to be real? I don't mean that makeup makes you unreal necessarily, but I mean - what if she had the flu? When I get the flu, I'm thinking "oh god I'm dying" not "oh, I can't let him see me that way." My DH will take care of me, how can her DH take care of her?

Hmm, I might be getting off point, sorry, but I guess I mean that the spirit of fun is fine, and I'm sure you're already conveying that. I seriously doubt you have given the impression that your DD's value is based on her perfect nails (and I know some parents ARE unfortunately conveying that message).

To flip it around, there's nothing wrong with sports at all. But it's problematic if you raise your boy to believe that his value is in his sports prowess. If he likes sports, great. If he's not a sporty guy, that's fine too.

[One_Girl]

I think that as long as you are having fun and modeling a good attitude towards your body, versus constantly harping about a few extra pounds, then your child will pick up on the good body image stuff from you. I think that the way our dd's hear us talk about our bodies has more effect on them than whether they play with a toy or participate in something that is traditionally an activity that girls do.

[LynnS6]

My questions would be: Does your child want to do this? Does it make her feel good about herself? If so, why not? Does she engage in a range of activities that help develop her mind and her body? Then a little focus on pampering is fine. (Personally, I can't imagine the whole pageant thing being something I'd want my kid to do, but maybe that's me.)

Our dd is pretty 'girly' - she loves pink and purple, she spent the entire year she was 3 wearing a leotard with a tutu (or so it seemed), she likes ballet and dances a lot through the living room. She also plays soccer and this year, tee-ball. This summer we've signed up for ice skating and gymnastics. She loves to swim. So, I don't find that her girly stuff takes over her life. It's just one facet of who she is.

And this phase does end. We just ordered new sandals for the kids for summer, and I gave dd the choice of which color to order. They came in navy blue, grey, light pink, dark pink and teal. To my utter surprise, she insisted on: teal.

[ollyoxenfree]

I enjoy manicures and pedicures and getting my hair done because I like how it makes me feel. The same applies to buying clothes I like or occasionally, jewelry. It's a personal judgement. If someone comments that they like what I'm wearing or how my hair looks, it's nice, but their approval or disapproval is beside the point.

In a beauty pageant, the judgement of others is the ENTIRE and ONLY point. The only reason that girl is standing up on stage is to find out what others think about her. In my mind, that's a huge difference. It's also the difference that I've tried to point out to my dc when they are choosing what to wear or how to style their hair. They are pretty independent about fashion (although ds is a punk/goth and we've had a few discussions about how conforming to a non-comformist standard is still conforming!).

Caring about your appearance isn't a problem, unless the only thing you really care about is how others are judging your appearance.

Let her enjoy the pedicure - dd and I love to go together to the salon. It is fun. If she wants to pick out flaming orange polish though, I'd indulge her independence!

[attached2ethan]

I have two sons and am getting ready to meet my first daughter in a few weeks, so perhaps I'm not qualified to answer this yet - but I am a girl, so here are my thoughts.

I am pretty girly, but in moderation. I hang out in jeans and tank tops, but I love to dress up for special occasions. I don't wear makeup, but enjoy putting it on when I'm going on a date with my husband. I never go into a spa unless someone gets me a gift certificate, but I REALLY enjoy massages, pedicures, and manicures. I do have a bit of a clothing obsession, but I try not to let this rub off on my kids. I think moderation is the key- and your daughters are who they are, regardless of who you are

I think it would be great fun and a real treat for your little one to visit a spa, and as long as it's presented as a special occasion, then it should be fine to indulge this once. I think as moms, we need to foster our daughter's femininity, while also not placing them into a role that might not be best suited to their personality- essentially, teach them the beauty of being woman without the hype of going overboard Things like opinions on birth, breastfeeding, beauty, boys, etc...are learned by example, mainly from mom-and it sounds like you are well grounded in your opinions, so I'm sure your daughter is set up for a healthy attitude on the topic of womanhood. Just have fun!!!

[nextcommercial]

LOL... Go ahead and have a girly date with your daughter, it's not going to cause problems, unless you do it all the time and can't afford it.

But, the "miss fourth grade" thing does seem weird to me. (I am not in the south) That really only bothers me because if we were living in the south, my daughter would have gone all through school and never been chosen for "Miss __ grade". I think that might leave a lasting impression. (even though, she was picked for every talent show she tried out for)

She was an awesome student and kid, but didn't "shine" like others.

[MusicianDad]

I say go ahead and have a girlie date with your DD too. I do that with DD often enough. She has never gotten the idea that looks are more important than anything else. What she does understand is that it is ok to do something just for you, that you find relaxing and enjoy.

And really, mani/pedi's are relaxing.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Go ahead and have fun. Encourage her to have fun - don't encourage her to "look better" with make-up on, tell her she's beautiful every day - not just when she's wearing make-up or has painted nails. Be yourself! By being you, and having a positive body image of yourself you will model that for her - and it's SO important!!

And, my mom insists that I went through that stage as a kid. You know what? I don't own a single bit of make-up today, and am a jeans and t-shirt kinda woman.

[LaLaLaLa]

I've had one manicure in my life--the day of my sister-in-law's wedding. I've never had a massage or other spa treatments.

When my DD gets a bit older (she's five now), I'll definitely take her for occasional spa days, because that's totally the kind of girl she is. I tried to fight it, but she wears dresses every single day. After two years of begging, I gave in and signed her up for ballet. She's digging in the costume box every day for something fancy to wear. And if I told her I was going to take her somewhere to have her nails professionally done, she'd just be beside herself with joy.

Manicures and girly stuff may not be my cup of tea, but if that sort of stuff is important to my DD, I'll totally play along and support her.

I don't particularly like sports, either. But you can bet I'm cheering loudly for both kids on the side of the soccer field and will likely attend several semi-pro baseball games this summer, because it will be important to DD and DS. I don't have any angst over supporting "girl" activities or "boy" activities.

[Cujobunny]

Originally Posted by laohaire

To me, the issue is not about dressing up and being pretty - it's the context, the specific value you place on it. If you feel good getting pampered, you feel confident when you have your hair all done up, you have lots of fun trying on clothes, it's all good.

ITA

[limabean]

No harm in a manicure. She knows you and your values and lives with those values every day of her life -- all of that won't be overruled by one afternoon in a salon.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree

In a beauty pageant, the judgement of others is the ENTIRE and ONLY point. The only reason that girl is standing up on stage is to find out what others think about her. In my mind, that's a huge difference. It's also the difference that I've tried to point out to my dc when they are choosing what to wear or how to style their hair. They are pretty independent about fashion (although ds is a punk/goth and we've had a few discussions about how conforming to a non-comformist standard is still conforming!).

Thank you -- this is a very clear explanation of my gut feeling. I feel that the pageant thing is 'off', and you hit the nail on the head when you said that it's because it's about the judgment of others, not about how you feel.

I wonder, then, about other activities where you're judged - music competitions? figure skating?

[meemee]

i am a firm believer in letting anyone steep in whatever interests them and figure out for themselves. so i never held back when dd was into miley cyrus/hannah montana. allowing her to do that made me realise what i thought she would get out of it and what she DID get out of it are two different things. dd loves being on stage and would love to be a rock star.

i have never spoken to her about body image. she is both a tom boy AND girly girl and i have allowed her to fully explore those. at nearly 4 years she was super princess spider girl. she had her own make up set and today has even gotten her dad to help her put on nailpolish.

and yet of her own accord she once picked up a magazine ad of a foundation and asked what was the point in hiding behind the mask. so i discovered she had a sense of something off.

i think how we live our life = without being too high handed or lecturing - we automatically help our children figure out what is important in life.

on a side note - a friends teenager wanted to play sports just for the fun of it. she dropped out of many places and ended up never finding one that wasnt competitive and had to win at all cost. sad!!!

having said that though i will never go into one of those mall make up places - the ones for kids with everything there. just grosses me out. yet i know dd would love to go there. thankfully we never go to the mall so she has not asked. i woudl much rather take her to a salon.

[ecoteat]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

I wonder, then, about other activities where you're judged - music competitions? figure skating?

I think the difference there is that you are being judged on your ability in a particular skill for which you practiced. Except for the most intense competitions, they are usually age-appropriate skills and expectations. With beauty pageants, girls are being judged on a totally artificial version of a girl. They are dolled up by someone else. They are not demonstrating any skill other than following directions and smiling. (I'm certainly no expert on pageants, so I may be missing something, but that's how I see it.)

[Hokulele]

Thank you, MDCers for all these great responses... and for setting me straight on all this.

I got kind of lost in how I felt about all this because the moms I've been around recently allll about image. One takes her five year old to get her nails done on a regular basis and another friend's pre-teen is in modeling school.

I like the idea of salon visits being a once-in-a-while treat. And all the comments about how it makes you *feel* are exactly right. It is a treat, not a necessity so that we can look a certain way to impress others.

DD is going to love the salon. I'm sure I would have taken her regardless, but now that I've read all these comments I'm going to relax about it! I'm not giving her a negative message by taking her to get her nails painted!!!

Thanks everyone!

[Hokulele]

This:

Originally Posted by laohaire

I knew a lady who told me she got up every morning before her husband to make sure she had all her makeup on and such, she would NEVER let him see her "undone." And he was very cool with that, he was happy with that. To me, that's problematic. If she can't be her real self around her husband, how is she ever going to be real?

Makes me so sad. I have known people who have similar feelings and I just get so sad for them that they feel they cannot be themselves in the simplest way. How does a person get to the point when they are so uncomfortable in their own skin? And how can there be another person out there, who loves them enough to marry them, who is OK with them being so uncomfortable and even perpetuates it???? I just don't get it!

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

I wonder, then, about other activities where you're judged - music competitions? figure skating?

I think personal goal setting is important for everyone, including children, but not competitions. Unfortunately, competition seems to be an accepted norm in art and athletics, even for children.

With art and athletics, I think it's possible to assess whether you have learned new skills or made an improvement on skill level. Self-evaluation is important, but it's also helpful to have feedback from others. Gentle constructive criticism and positive suggestions for improvement can be beneficial. It's also beneficial to participate with others in shows, festivals, and tournaments. Sharing with others and learning from others is important for growing and developing as an artist and athlete. It would be nice if it happened more often without competition.

I know beauty contests have talent and public speaking components, but ultimately they are about appearance. You could remove the talent and public speaking parts and the contest would still continue. No skill level necessary really. What kind of personal goals and achievements are emphasized? Not really the kind that I want my dc to worry about.