Mothering › Forums › Natural Family Living › The Mindful Home › Pets › 3 month old puppy showing agression to my dd
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

3 month old puppy showing agression to my dd

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
We have a 3 month old Akita/mut that I got from the front of the grocery store last month. I didn't research the breed, just feel in love stupid mistake I know. My 3 year old has undiagnosed ADD, she is a handful I know I have to watch her carefully with the dog. She is not mean, she is just a dog lover. She wants to hold the dog, pet the dog, give her kisses. Well the dog keeps nipping at her every time she even tries to pet her. We thought she was just playing and that the growling was playful, but I'm starting to wonder. Tonight we gave the puppy a bone and dd2 touched and she growled at her. She is only 3 months old, I don't feel as though this is a good sign as far as temperment goes. I have been doing dominance training, having the girls and myself go through door before her and such. When the bone growling thing happened I stepped on her bone to show her my dominance and then had dd2 do the same at which she growled at, but with me right there I had dd2 hold her ground.

Can you tell a dogs temperant this early? Can this be trained out of her and will my children be safe? What do you guys think, what would you do?
post #2 of 31
If it is possible you need to find a dog trainer to help you out. Even at 3 months old growling over food is a big warning sign that things need to change ASAP the best way to do that is get someone to come work with your puppy. If you get it under control now there is every chance that she will make a great pet later on. But if you let it go you are going to end up with a dd who gets bit.
post #3 of 31
Yes, three months is very early for this to be showing....however, I am a bit worried when you say you are doing "dominance" training.

For things like resource guarding (growling over a bone) the dog is growling because he doesnt want you to take it...you dont want to make it a fight but instead want to make them want to give it to you and trust you near their food and possessions. You dont need to gain possession over the bone, you need to teach a good leave it and drop it.

If the puppy doesnt want to be pet and loved and held, that needs to be respected as well (to a point...of course they need to accept humans around them, but sometimes enough is enough). A growl is communication, the dog telling you they dont like something. Also, does the pup do this to anyone else? Is it a certain way of petting or place that causes her to get upset? I am assuming she has had a thorough vet check?

Regardless, three months is young. I would definitely get a behaviorist involved asap. You can find trainers and behaviorists in your area through the association of pet dog trainers.
post #4 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah_bella1050 View Post
I have been doing dominance training, having the girls and myself go through door before her and such. When the bone growling thing happened I stepped on her bone to show her my dominance and then had dd2 do the same at which she growled at, but with me right there I had dd2 hold her ground.
What your puppy is doing is pretty typical behavior, and for living in a house with a rambunctious 3 year old who gets to step on her bones, I'm not surprised she's taken to resource guarding.

Your dog needs to learn to trust your daughter - your daughter isn't a threat. She won't keep the bone. You dog's belongings are not in jeopardy when your daughter is around.

You need to sit down and play some "trading games" with your puppy, do some positive reinforcement, and make her feel comfortable in her surroundings. This is a warning sign that she is feeling violated. Figure out what is triggering that for her and help her LEARN that she doesn't need to feel that way. You and your kids trampling her stuff in front of her is not teaching her a thing. Except that next she'll have to try harder next time.

The single biggest thing you can do to make your dog feel more secure is to give her a special place that is 100% off limits to children. No matter what. This is the place that she should be fed. She should not have to feel as though she needs to compete with your kids for her right to eat her food, or she WILL think she needs to guard it. Give her a space to call her own and have EVERYONE in the house respect that. Enforce it. If you don't, she'll feel obligated to do it for you and you'll have problems.

In the mean time, don't allow her to have toys or treats when the kids are around, and when you do give them to her, use it as an opportunity to teach her something. Trading is a great way to teach her a "leave it" or "give it" command. Sit down on the floor with her, offer her the bone. Let her get into chewing it and reach down with a handful of tasty treats in your hand and move toward the bone. Make sure the treats are WAY tastier than the bone (a microwaved hot dog works really well). When she forfeits the bone to check out the treats happily say "drop it" as you reward her with a tiny piece of the treat. Don't say the command and expect her to execute it. It will be a waste of time. She doesn't know what "drop it" means. Wait until she has already done what you want or, preferably, in the process (in this case, dropping the bone) and THEN say it. She will LEARN that giving up her bone doesn't result in disaster and that your hands closing in on her stuff is actually a good positive thing. She will happily give up a bone and do so without a peep if you condition her like this.

You want to help her feel safe and secure. Stepping on her stuff only reinforces her guarding behavior because she's not being shown an alternative.

As for the nipping, well, it's pretty common. The best way to prevent that is to not let your daughter attempt to pet the puppy. Kids and puppies are the same size. To the puppy your daughter is like another litter mate. Everything from the inflection of her voice to her size tells your puppy that your daughter is different from you, so while she may obey you to some degree, what she knows with you she doesn't associate to your daughter. You and your daughter are two totally different entities to your puppy.

Plus, kids tend to reward the bad behavior inadvertently which just perpetuates the problem. Attention is attention is attention. When your daughter gets nipped and 30 seconds later turns around and tries to pet the dog again, the dog is getting a pay off for nipping. For her, the nipping is likely a form of play. So she's getting rewarded with another initiation to play every time your daughter tries to pet her. So for the pup, she's REALLY enjoying the fact that your daughter is constantly engaging in this play behavior. To you it just looks like the dog is constantly trying to nip your daughter.

And I bet your daughter is probably trying to touch her on the top of the head, which is actually a no-no to dogs. They don't like to have hands coming at the tops of their heads above their eyes. They are much more receptive to being approached from the side, toward the shoulder area.

Your puppy sounds like a normal puppy. The resource guarding is a tiny bit worrisome, but it sounds like it's probably being caused by chaos in her environment. The good news is, is that she's ONLY 3 months old and this totally manageable. However, a 3 year old and a puppy is a lot of work. Neither one has impulse control, so you're going to have to redirect, supervise, and redirect some more. You REALLY have to instill some boundaries for the 3 year old. Allowing a 3 year old to be a typical 3 year old toward a puppy is just not fair. And it's going to cause problems for the puppy, as you're already seeing, if you don't. (I have 6 month old puppy and a 4 year old myself, I really understand how hard it is.)

My rules (and yes, they are hard and fast rules... when it comes to kids and dogs you can't take the hands off, consentual, let them explore and figure it out on their own approach) are this:

1.) Absolutely no touching the dog on the head. Approach the dog with palms up, below eye level, and touch on the shoulders/chest.

2.) Absolutely no crouching down to eye level with the dog. No face-face. No "kissing" or nuzzling. No cuddling. No hugging. No grabbing. No pulling. No pushing. Basically, don't allow them to force themselves onto the dog, or force the dog into positions/places they don't willingly go on their own.

3.) Absolutely not allowed to take anything away from the dog, whether it be in front of the dog on the floor (seemingly not being used by the dog.. according to a child), or in the dog's mouth.

4.) No chasing the dog. No running from the dog when it chases you.

I have taught my daughter that when the puppy jumps/nips/chases she is to turn into a statue. We make a game of it. It's fun. She stands perfectly still, hands at her sides in fists (no loose fingers), and she is to keep turning away from the puppy. It's so tempting for them to run from the dog, or chase the dog, or yell at the dog, or swat at the dog. But all of this stuff just rewards the behavior. If the puppy jumps on a kid and all they do is freeze and stand still, it gets reeeeeeeally boring.

Your biggest challenge is going to be supervision. I suggest you tether the puppy to your waist (put her on a leash, tie it to your belt loops) and reward EVERYTHING that she does correctly. If YOU control when she plays, how she plays, what she plays with, when she eats, how long she eats, where she eats, etc, she's only going to succeed because you're setting her environment up so she can only do the right things.

In an ideal puppy-3 year old world, the puppy would NEVER have the opportunity to nip at or jump on your 3 year old. Ever. She'd either be tethered to you, crated, behind a gate, or asleep. Preferably crated or tethered to you. If she's tethered to you she can only do something if YOU allow it. You're not so much "dominating" her, as you are guiding and controlling the environment. If you set her up to succeed, the more she succeeds and LEARNS what it's like to please you, the more she is going to WANT to do it.
post #5 of 31
ITA with the previous posters. Sorry, but "dominance training" with a kid is a disaster waiting to happen IMO.

Pup needs a "safe spot", tethered to you so you can supervise, and DD needs to learn dog manners
post #6 of 31
North-of-60 thank you for those rules my new Boxer puppy is just over 11 weeks and the main thing I am having trouble with is her jumping up on the kids and nipping at the shoes.

She growls but that is a boxer trait and I can tell she isnt upset just very happy / over excited. When I asked on the boxer board what I should do they didnt help all that much other than ending the play session right then. Not ways I could correct the behavior or have the kids do something to stop the excitement like standing still.
post #7 of 31
Your dog is trying to communicate the only way she knows how, that she doesn't want to be played with or have her food messed with.

Dominance training isn't effective if you aren't following any other kid of training regime, or doing anything to build your dogs trust. Until your pup trusts you and views you as a pack leader (not just dominant, but her leader) she will not respond to you. I follow the alpha theory when it comes to dog training, but not in a dominance based manner. We have worked over months and months to build our dogs' trust in us as their leader, and ensure that we are thoroughly communicating to them what is and isn't acceptable behavior, and where their place in the pack lies.

Get a good trainer NOW and deal with those issues. A good portion of them are likely just puppy traits, but you don't want to encourage guarding behavior because it could get worse.

You should also never leave your DD unsupervised with the dog, if she can't control her impulses. She's young, and that's to be expected, but you are setting them both up for failure if you leave a young child with poor impulse control alone with a young pup who is still learning proper and acceptable behavior. When they are playing together, supervise closely, ensure that they are both gentle and calm with each other, and calmly and gently end the play session whenever it starts to escalate to growling. NEVER encourage any more playing that includes growling or barking with your DD. Heck, my son is 9 and we don't leave our mastiff alone with him, because we don't fully trust her yet.

If you can, also get her into a puppy play group or a training class where she can be socialized with other dogs. This will also introduce her to the proper dog manners/greeting/playing behavior. I say it all the time, but dog training is amazing and awesome and GREAT for dogs. And it's not really for the dogs, it's for the owners. If you have a good trainer, they will guide you and point out the things that you are doing that could be detrimental to your pet. Ours is wonderful, and painfully blunt at times about things that we need to change, lol. She is worth her weight in gold.

MCat, stopping the play session is exactly what you want to do to discourage the behavior. She will make the connection that growling = no more playing, eventually. You just have to be consistent. That is the best way to stop the behavior. If you freeze or respond to her growling, but keep playing, you are essentially telling her "I will do what you want me to, and then we'll keep playing" instead of "You do not growl, we are done playing, that is not acceptable". That is the most effective way to correct the behavior, if you speak to a trainer they'll tell you the same thing.
post #8 of 31
Sorry for the highjack OP

The advice I got wasnt to stop the growling it was to stop her from nipping at the feet and jumping up.

The growling they told me on the boxer board was just a boxer thing and meant nothing so to ignore it. I cant imagine getting her to stop she would never get to play at all if I didnt allow her to growl at all. I have never seen her play whether it be alone, with another dog or my kids without growling from the first second of play.

She does learn fast but she would be miserable not being able to play any for probably what would be days on end because of the growling.
post #9 of 31
Okay, well, just take that advice and use it as you see fit if there are behaviors you want to stop, you know? For example, our rottie growls when she's playing, but if she escalates to trying to jump on us, or to getting too rough, we stop the play immediately. In the heat of the moment, so to speak, it's the most effective way to shut down the behavior you don't want, you know?

I don't necessarily think the growling is a bad thing, it's how dogs communicate. But stopping the play and any attention is a very good way to thwart bad behavior.

I would just look at her overall body language and make sure the growling isn't indicative of more. I have been doing a ton of research and talking to our trainers to help me learn my dogs' body language. With our mastiff, it's the easiest way to see when she's getting wound up and ready to nip at something, so the more I learn to read her, the more I'm able to cut off the nipping before it starts. It's definitely been interesting.
post #10 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by SquishyKitty View Post
MCat, stopping the play session is exactly what you want to do to discourage the behavior. She will make the connection that growling = no more playing, eventually. You just have to be consistent. That is the best way to stop the behavior. If you freeze or respond to her growling, but keep playing, you are essentially telling her "I will do what you want me to, and then we'll keep playing" instead of "You do not growl, we are done playing, that is not acceptable". That is the most effective way to correct the behavior, if you speak to a trainer they'll tell you the same thing.
Since I recommended having kids "freeze" when a puppy gets a bit exuberant, I just want to address this. Because SquishyKitty is absolutely right. If the play sessions isn't completely stopped, the dog won't learn that rough play = equals no play if all you're doing is taking a quick break.

Having kids "freeze" is meant to take the place of running from the puppy, or swatting at the puppy, or screaming, or whatever. All of those things can been taken as play. When a kid runs from a puppy, guess what? The puppy usually chases them. Teaching kids not to feed into the behavior by STOPPING all activity and movement is a good place to start, and 100 times better then running away while the puppy is chasing behind nipping at their fingers. An adult ALWAYS, ALWAYS needs to interject in these kinds of situations. I kind of assumed that part was pretty self explanatory.
post #11 of 31
I totally agree with everything that's been said already. There are also different kinds of growls - a play growl is very different from an aggressive/posessive growl. One of my dogs growls in play all the time as she runs around with a toy pouncing on it, or when we play tug. But I think with a new dog it takes a while to learn which is which and it's better to err on the side of caution. Chaos' playful growl is usually accompanied by lots of tail wags and wiggling, not a tense or stiff posture.
post #12 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmagick View Post

For things like resource guarding (growling over a bone) the dog is growling because he doesnt want you to take it...you dont want to make it a fight but instead want to make them want to give it to you and trust you near their food and possessions. You dont need to gain possession over the bone, you need to teach a good leave it and drop it.
[/URL]
I agree with this but at the same time totally disagree.

A dog doesn't relinquish ownership of a foodstuff because they want to. It's because they HAVE to. The dominant/submissive relationship of dogs to their leaders isn't based on a choice... well it is...but the choice is fight for your resource and potentially die in a fight or submit .

NEVER CONFUSE YOUR PET ANIMAL FOR A HUMAN , it does them an enormous disservice.

With this pup, be tough as old boots. Every human it ever encounters is dominant. Stand your ground calmly. At feeding times, wait for a submissive demeanor before feeding. At play time practice ending the game on your terms. Squelch and discipline any display of dominance as it happens.

I would never advocate physically hurting any creature but sometimes to assert dominance you have to be physically present and forceful. Not angry or out of control, but willing to physically chastise by deliberate touch.

Some people are 'naturals' with animals. Others apply human psychology, thoughts and feelings...'anthropomorphism' and it benefits no one but the human.

If you own a dog or cat or goat. Own that animal. It's not a furry, deformed child.

You have a dog. Watch some online videos of wild canine interaction. Watch a mother wolf with her cubs. Be the WOLF!
post #13 of 31
uhm...dominance theory has been disproven...It is NOT about dominance and submission. It is about leadership and rules and living together.

The Alpha Fallacy

Revisiting Two Wolf Myths and How they affect Dog Training



Debunking the Myth of Dominance

Debunking the Dominance Myth

The Man who Cried Alpha

Watch a stable pack of dogs or wolves...if one has food or a bone another does not just come up and take it.
post #14 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bea View Post
A dog doesn't relinquish ownership of a foodstuff because they want to. It's because they HAVE to. The dominant/submissive relationship of dogs to their leaders isn't based on a choice... well it is...but the choice is fight for your resource and potentially die in a fight or submit.
Sure they give up good stuff because they want to! Because they've learned through experience that doing what you ask them to will get them a reward. That may be play time, a favourite toy, a treat, or a warm "good girl". And hey, I'm usually going to reward giving up the really good stuff because that's the behaviour I want to see!

It's not necessary to set up an I-win-you-lose relationship with your dog just to get them to behave the way you want.
post #15 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bea View Post
I agree with this but at the same time totally disagree.

A dog doesn't relinquish ownership of a foodstuff because they want to. It's because they HAVE to. The dominant/submissive relationship of dogs to their leaders isn't based on a choice... well it is...but the choice is fight for your resource and potentially die in a fight or submit .

NEVER CONFUSE YOUR PET ANIMAL FOR A HUMAN , it does them an enormous disservice.

With this pup, be tough as old boots. Every human it ever encounters is dominant. Stand your ground calmly. At feeding times, wait for a submissive demeanor before feeding. At play time practice ending the game on your terms. Squelch and discipline any display of dominance as it happens.

I would never advocate physically hurting any creature but sometimes to assert dominance you have to be physically present and forceful. Not angry or out of control, but willing to physically chastise by deliberate touch.

Some people are 'naturals' with animals. Others apply human psychology, thoughts and feelings...'anthropomorphism' and it benefits no one but the human.

If you own a dog or cat or goat. Own that animal. It's not a furry, deformed child.

You have a dog. Watch some online videos of wild canine interaction. Watch a mother wolf with her cubs. Be the WOLF!
Wow. I respectfully couldn't disagree more! "Its not a furry, deformed child"? Honestly, not only did no one say anything about babying the dog, but some of those comments are bordering on disrespectful to all the good and science-backed advice the OP has received.

DH and I have had our own dogs for 18 years - all rescues, all needing some sort of rehabilitation. We started out using "dominance theory" but little by little we caught on that there was a lot more to this pack thing than a nice, neat line up of alpha down to omega. Dominace theory has been debunked time and time again. Not only is that NOT how wild caninds really behave, even if it were, humans are NOT dogs. We can NEVER replicate the subtleties of communication dogs use BEFORE they get to the point of a growl or a snarl or a bite. Dogs are not humans, and neither are humans dogs.

But in this case, most importantly, a CHILD cannot physically "dominate" a dog, nor should this ever be encouraged. Dominate away, and you end up with a dog who minds whoever is mean enough to "make it mind". TEACH the dog how to behave, and what commands mean, and that good things happen when you perform them, and you can have that dog behave for a toddler.

I just got back from a soccer game, two other dogs and oodles of kids and humans running around. My 7 year old 45# daughter had our 120# great dane on a leash, no pulling, the dog complying perfectly with commands to sit or down or "lets go". This dog has NEVER been "dominated" or "shown who's boss", nor has anyone ever been "physically forceful" with her. We very much respect our dogs as dogs, and use the principles of learning theory to temper their instincts and teach them how to behave around other species - including humans.

In a house with four large dogs and two small kids, we can't afford to have a relationship with our dogs where they don't trust humans. Our dogs relinquish possessions and behave reliably because they TRUST us, not because we "own" them.

Please read the articles Greenmagick posted. There really is a better, SAFER way
post #16 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bea
If you own a dog or cat or goat. Own that animal. It's not a furry, deformed child.


I think this is really, really bad advice. Sorry. If you get a dog with the mind set of OWNING it, rather than bonding with it or creating a relationship with it, that's all you'll do. Is own it. The relationship will be as reciprocal as the relationship you would have with a chair. That's a very 1 dimensional way of living with a sentient being.

Dogs don't thrive and adapt to living with humans because they are submissive. And if you are banking on your dog's submissiveness to make it a reliable and pleasent family member, you're taking a HUGE gamble.

Dogs, as family members, not "owned" pieces of property, reach their potential because we TEACH them. Everything about living with humans is learned. Whether it be a behavior or an action, it is because someone has taken the time to socialize, imprint, teach, modify, and expose.

Dogs, not unlike humans, are individuals. Some are natural leaders, some are followers. Some are adversarial. Some are peace keepers. Some are introverts. Others are out going. Our teachings should be based on their needs.

No two dogs will learn at the same pace, or with the exact same technique, and while I really do believe there is credence to dominance theories (think packs), I think this is where dominance training falls short. The notion that every pet dog needs to be dominated is absurd.

That said, I AM the leader of my pack. I am the alpha female. But I didn't have to dominate them to achieve that. I've achieved this status by teaching them to trust me and the other authoritative figures in their life (read, earning trust), motivating them to learn, and by being a leader. Dogs DO need leadership, and thrive in an environment where they don't HAVE to fight to survive. That is an incredibly stressful way to live.

Constantly finding ways to dominate a dog is not conducive to a relaxed and easy relationship. I've found that once a dog has LEARNED what is expected, being that they by nature what to please, will work hard to do just that. But in order for them to learn, someone has to teach them.

Even if a dog is dominant by nature, and many breeds are in general, it's not the end of the world. It's how you HANDLE their temperament that makes all the difference in the world. Giving a GSD a job and mental stimulation instead of "alpha rolling" them or using aversion techniques is just one way to harness that energy in their favor.
post #17 of 31
Ummmmm.....I'm not sure how t hat happened but I didn't say that, lol. My dogs most certainly are my furry children......
post #18 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by SquishyKitty View Post
Ummmmm.....I'm not sure how t hat happened but I didn't say that, lol. My dogs most certainly are my furry children......
Ok, that was weird. That was supposed to be Bea that I was quoting. Off to edit.
post #19 of 31
Thread Starter 
Wow OK I guess I started a bit of a debate. What I meant to say by the fact that we are using dominance training is the whole humans are alpha thing. Everyone I have ever seen train a dog is by spanking the dog and I was implying that we are not doing this. I want her to understand that it is never OK to show agression on humans, which is why we stepped on the toy. She doesn't get to play if she is going to be agressive. Afterward I had dd give her the toy and say good dog.

The dog Suki is naturally submissive to me and is very smart and listens better then any dog I have ever met. I say no she stops immediately. I say out she walks back toward me away from the off limit room. We have been having training sessions with her so far learning sit and stay. She stopped growling at dd immediately when I said no. Dd is never allowed alone with the dog. When the dog is not outside or in her kennel she is tether to me with my voice.

I know that everything will be fine as long as I am there supervising them. The problem is that I want a dog my kids CAN play with. I want this nipping and growling behavior to end and I want our family to enjoy this dog instead of scared of her. My kids will always 100% come before a dog and I will never love Suki like my own children. I care for the dog and enjoy the dog, but she is not my baby. I want to train the dog in a loving yet authoritative way, I will not be abusing my dog.
post #20 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah_bella1050 View Post
. What I meant to say by the fact that we are using dominance training is the whole humans are alpha thing. I want her to understand that it is never OK to show agression on humans, which is why we stepped on the toy. She doesn't get to play if she is going to be agressive. .
Thats kind of the point though....humans are not "alpha"....there really is no true alpha as pack hierarchy is not stagnant and we as humans definitely are not viewed as dogs. Even when a dog or wolf is perceived as "leader" they often have no problem giving up a bone etc. That is not what being a leader is about. In a dog pack who has it has it...I mean if they are chewing on a bone it is considered extremely rude behavior for another to take it away. Now, as we are human we need to be able to take bones etc aways at times, but this should be done by teaching leave it or drop it by trading for the item with a treat and giving the item back (obviously use an appropriate item for training purposes)

Also, while of course you dont want an aggressive dog, the way to do that is by not making it a fight. By physically taking away or correcting a growl you are actually reinforcing the dogs original behavior. You want the dog to listen and follow you out of trust and respect, not because you are bigger and can take things away. And a growl in a sense is a good thing...it is your dog communicating. You dont correct the growl, you fix the situation that caused the growl.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Pets
Mothering › Forums › Natural Family Living › The Mindful Home › Pets › 3 month old puppy showing agression to my dd