Pre-bedtime chaos...

[crunchy_mommy]

Not sure if I should post this here or in Nighttime Parenting but it's not exactly about sleep...

DS (15mo) goes to bed around 11:30pm most nights. We've tried getting him to bed earlier but it's impossible & he is just all-around happier, sleeps better, etc. with the late bedtime. (I was the same way myself so I'm not surprised). Plus he doesn't wake up 'til after 10 most days so I'm able to get a lot of my work done in the mornings.

The problem is that by 8 or 9pm I've just had it. I'm not ready to sleep by that point, but I do all the nighttime wakings and I'm with him all day (and I WAH) so that's roughly 11pm to 5:30pm the next day, and then DH & I share parenting duties from 5:30-11. I can't function after 8-9pm. I just need to lay down, read or watch TV, etc. and I have no patience, no tolerance for screaming, etc. I'm just *done*.

BUT it seems like from 8 or 9pm on is when DS is the most clingy. He doesn't want Daddy to read to him, only me, etc. DH tries taking him in the other room & he seems to do OK if I'm out of sight but if I go to the bathroom or something & DS sees me he gets hysterical. Plus for some reason DH doesn't really want to play with him in the other room, he wants to be in the room with me too. At that point of the night it's too late for any of us to get out of the house... there's nowhere to go & it's dark & buggy out.

I don't know if I'm being unreasonable asking DH to take DS to another room for a couple hours late at night. DH is tired too but we get the same # of hours of sleep (though mine are interrupted), plus I have chronic fatigue (possible not CFS but something else but that's a whole 'nother story) so I am perpetually tired but DH is just the type to need lots of naps, lots of sleep. And I feel kind of like I'm abandoning DS when he wants/needs me most -- yet I want nothing to do with him at that point. I feel so conflicted & quite frankly, like a horrible mom!!! I feel like those parents you see on TV where you just want to scream at them to grow up & suck it up & be a parent... you know?

[ellemenope]

So, then are you all going to sleep at the same time?

If I did not have downtime in the evening alone sith my DH I would go crazy. DD is also a night owl and would very happily stay up until 1am.

She was/is the exact opposite of your son in the evenings. As soon as the sun goes down, she turns into a little angel. It is like she knows she is on borrowed time.

And, I still put her down at 9:00. Although, late by many standards, it would be very easy to fall into a habit of letting her stay up with us until midnight. When DD is awake we focus on her. When she is asleep we can focus on eachother. And, I just need to chill with the TV on, (We don't turn it on when she is awake) or read a book.

[prancie]

i think you are missing his cues for an earlier bedtime. And by earlier i mean like 6:30 or 7 PM, or earlier. Earlier than you think. If your DS is getting hysterical and difficult then he is already overtired and overtired means he should have been asleep a long time ago. you might need to adjust his naptime so he feels sleepier and consider what stimulation he's getting late in the day that is interfering with his relaxation.

you and your dh need time to yourselves too!

[crunchy_mommy]

Well I don't really think I'm missing his cues. He is hysterical & difficult all day long that's just how he is. We have tried getting him to bed earlier and IF we happen to get him to sleep he never stays asleep more than an hour, it's always just a quick nap, and then he's up until 11, 11:30 still. I know that is a late bedtime for many babies but I was exactly EXACTLY like him as a baby & even now. We go to bed late & get up late, I guess our biological clock is just off a bit from everyone else's? Also he sleeps much better with the later bedtime & he is happier (still "hysterical & difficult" but not as bad as with an earlier bedtime).

ETA: Oh and yes, we all go to bed around the same time. Well, DH usually goes to sleep at 11, DS at 11:30, & me at midnight.

[ellemenope]

s

Well, everything is a phase.

How do you get your DS to sleep?

I lie down with DD next to me and call my mom. We talk for about 45 minutes a night. (isn't that nice?) DD usually falls asleep within that timeframe, effortlessly.

When DD was younger, she used to wakeup 45 minutes after she'd fallen asleep. One of us would just run in there and pat her back to sleep. She hasn't done this is months.

You can change your sleep rythms. You can help your baby change his.

It sounds like something has to give. I would be looking for strategies for gettin your DS to bed earlier and staying asleep. I'm sorry I can't relate to nightwakings. But, I see a lot of posts on the subject.

[physmom]

Hmm... I didn't know DD had a twin brother? Strange!

DD is a total night owl. Her limit is around 10-10:30 and that's mostly because we limit her nap time during the day AND never let her sleep past 8 in the morning (although we're up for work at 7 most mornings so sometimes she's up earlier). Otherwise, I think she's totally go for the 11 or later bedtime.

I've gotten the whole "missing early signs" argument too and it really doesn't hold. We tried FOREVER to get her to sleep earlier and it just didn't work. On some rare occassions (basically when we HAD to be up super early for a flight or something) we've really pushed an earlier bed time and that involved us rocking her and her crying LIKE CRAZY. So not fun but it was bed than her doing the same thing on an early morning flight. I honestly think some kids just need less slepe than others (and like you said I was the same way as a kid).

What I would suggest is thinking about an earlier wake up time for him in the mornings and then trying to relax/work at night instead. Especially if you're a night owl you might feel more rested and more productive then. Also, how much does he nap during the day? Things work best for us if DD doesn't nap at all (unfortunately, that's not always possible) but even then we try and limit her napping. Just something to consider.

Once we accepted DD was going to go to bed late we relaxed the TV rules. I KNOW kids under 2 don't need it but I really need that down time for my own personal sanity. DD just ignores it and happily playes with her puzzles, toys etc. I can play with her and watch and that's helped me a lot to relax! DH does the baths but she's also pretty clingy at nights so we just try and do a lot of family stuff. It's still a long better once DH is around because I at least get some adult conversation in there too.

Also, we just go out to restaurants more. If it's a nice when it's clear that she's going to be up late we just pack her up and go out to eat. It's fun for all of us and not something many other parents get to enjoy as much.

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by ellemenope

How do you get your DS to sleep?

He will only fall asleep nursing. Once he falls asleep I have to stay in bed with him (we do this even for naps, he naps on my lap while I work), otherwise he doesn't stay asleep & won't fall back to sleep when he does wake. He will also fall asleep in the car occasionally & when I'm desperate DH will push him around the house in a stroller, but in those cases he won't sleep more than 30-45 minutes.

Originally Posted by physmom

Hmm... I didn't know DD had a twin brother? Strange!

Hahaa well I'm glad my DS isn't the only weird one! Yeah when we try to get him to bed earlier there is a lot of crying involved and no actual sleeping. He just isn't ready for bed that early! I can occasionally get him to sleep around 10, 10:30 if he woke up really early & missed all his naps, but even then it's a struggle.

Originally Posted by physmom

What I would suggest is thinking about an earlier wake up time for him in the mornings and then trying to relax/work at night instead. Especially if you're a night owl you might feel more rested and more productive then. Also, how much does he nap during the day?

Yeah that's something I've been thinking about. I really prefer to work in the morning, I can't focus by the end of the day (again, that's a whole 'nother thread!) but maybe if I force myself to get up at 5am I can get all my hours in & wake him up at 9 or 9:30... Which would also make it easier when I need to be somewhere for 10am because that happens once or twice a week & is always a struggle for us! Now that might push the bedtime up to 10:30 or so which is more reasonable, but I'm not sure he'll adjust to it (I've tried before, but kind of half-heartedly).
He usually only naps once a day (time varies greatly but often from 2:30-4pm) but sometimes, especially if I get him up earlier, he will take 2 or even 3 naps (30-60 minutes each)... and occasionally he takes a 7-8pm nap but he will then be up for another 4 hours. Basically he is very erratic, which has it's ups & downs (on the plus side, I can do whatever I want during the day & he'll sleep whenever he needs to, in my arms or the car or the wrap or whatever) and though we don't go out to dinner much it is nice to do other evening activities that, like you said, most parents don't get to do!

[LoveLife]

DS is very much like this. And when we got him to bed earlier he waould wake up SO much earlier that he was getting less sleep than with his late bedtime/waketime. But I have homework to do at night when he goes down, so I HAD to do something.

Here's what worked for us: in the book Sleeplessin in America the author recommends moving things up in 15 minute increments.

First, you move up wake up time and nap time by 15 minutes- keep bedtime the same for a few days. Your LO will be loosing those 15 minutes of sleep everyday and it will add up for him, and within about 3 days, he'll be ready to go to bed 15 mintues earlier. Then keep him on this "scheulde" for a few days and start again with another 15 minutes until you reach your ideal bedtime.

Its a long process, but once we got it down it helped SO much!! She does mention that if you have night owl you might not be able to move his biological clock more than an hour. We were able to go much more than that though. (And I was and am a night owl as well.)

As a side note, I thought there was no way we were missing DS windows for sleep and naps, but I was wrong and since moving his bedtime up I notice them more readily. I was never big on schedules, but I'm definitely learning to guard DS's sleep times. LOL.

I hope that helps!! We're all much more sane when mommy & daddy get some quiet time after DS falls asleep. And I'm not stressed because I can get homework done.

[lisavark]

OP, my daughter was exactly the same, and I read all the sleep books and tried all the suggestions in them. Nothing worked. Right when I was about to lose it, when she was around 18 months, she started dropping her nap entirely. I thought that was going to make me insane, but it turned out to be the biggest blessing in disguise. I never get any breaks during the day now, but she goes to bed at a reasonable hour (sometimes as early as 6:30, and rarely later than 9:00. Usually between 7:30 and 8:30). Which is awesome. On the rare days when she naps still, it's miserable, and usually it takes us several days to recover from one nap. Nobody understands why I go all out to prevent this kid from napping! But it just works way better for everyone this way.

But I totally understand how you feel with the whole needing a break right when your DS wants you most. Honestly, for me there were a lot of nights when I just walked away from it all. It's ok for a child to be with Daddy, even if they'd rather be Mommy right then. It didn't take long for my DD to start to really look forward to Daddy time at night. Now she sometimes even prefers for DH to do bedtime (although I always have to come in at the end for nursing). But she expects to get that special one-on-one time with DH in the evenings. When he comes home from work late, she usually stays up till he gets home.

The one thing I would say, though is that when you say in your post that your DS is "hysterical and difficult all day long," that could be an indication that you actually are missing an earlier sleep cue, or that he's not getting enough sleep. The main thing that made me finally give in and let my DD stay up was when I realized that she just didn't seem tired. She was cheerful, happy, and compliant all day long--up until late in the evening. Then she would get tired all of a sudden and conk out. She's basically the same way now, except that she gets tired several hours earlier. But I second the suggestion to read the book "Sleepless in America." It didn't help me at all , but it was what made me realize that DD was just like that and didn't need any more sleep than she was getting, because she didn't have any of the symptoms of overtiredness.

[physmom]

Originally Posted by lisavark

OP, my daughter was exactly the same, and I read all the sleep books and tried all the suggestions in them. Nothing worked. Right when I was about to lose it, when she was around 18 months, she started dropping her nap entirely. I thought that was going to make me insane, but it turned out to be the biggest blessing in disguise. I never get any breaks during the day now, but she goes to bed at a reasonable hour (sometimes as early as 6:30, and rarely later than 9:00. Usually between 7:30 and 8:30). Which is awesome. On the rare days when she naps still, it's miserable, and usually it takes us several days to recover from one nap. Nobody understands why I go all out to prevent this kid from napping! But it just works way better for everyone this way.

DD is really the same in that we can go most places and she's pretty flexible. BUT we don't let her ever take a second nap (and haven't since she was 9 months old). That's really worked well for us and it's cut back a lot on the clinginess, overtiredness. She's just someone that can't sleep much more during the day (she needs a nice long strech at night) even though she wants to sleep during the day.

Basically, we're at the point where we're trying to cut out the one nap during the day. It's hard because sometimes *I* need her to take that nap but the days that she doesn't get it are sooooo much better because she'll be in bed sometimes as early as 6pm and then sleep until at least 7am or even 8am. Those days are wonderful! And she's a much happier camper.

[crunchy_mommy]

Oh man I wish I could get him not to nap during the day!! I hate naps, especially because they are unpredictable... and car rides mess us up so bad. If the car ride is more than 30 minutes he often falls asleep 5 minutes before we get where we're going, and then doesn't take any good naps the rest of the day. Or I'll leave early knowing he might fall asleep, but instead he stays awake, and 3 hours later I still can't get him to nap. Plus I don't get a "break" during nap time anyway -- I'm always working, and he's always on my lap, and wakes so frequently to nurse back to sleep. I do think sometimes he's overtired (particularly car ride days!) but most days he seems to be getting enough sleep. He's just an intense kid. I can tell the difference between 'cranky & irritable because I'm overtired' and 'hysterical & difficult because I want everything to be a certain way', KWIM? Obviously tiredness complicates it. ANYWAY... so we are now on day 2 of an early wakeup (9-9:30am) and last night we were able to get him to sleep by 10 but only because he only took one very short nap. We'll see how it goes with another day or two under our belts. I will say DH & I very much appreciate having an hour or two together to wind down after DS is asleep! But I'm having a hard time figuring out how to get all my hours in for work (I need to average 4 hours a day to keep our health insurance) but a little more sleep deprivation won't kill me I guess!!

[physmom]

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy

Oh man I wish I could get him not to nap during the day!! I hate naps, especially because they are unpredictable... and car rides mess us up so bad. If the car ride is more than 30 minutes he often falls asleep 5 minutes before we get where we're going, and then doesn't take any good naps the rest of the day. Or I'll leave early knowing he might fall asleep, but instead he stays awake, and 3 hours later I still can't get him to nap. Plus I don't get a "break" during nap time anyway -- I'm always working, and he's always on my lap, and wakes so frequently to nurse back to sleep. I do think sometimes he's overtired (particularly car ride days!) but most days he seems to be getting enough sleep. He's just an intense kid. I can tell the difference between 'cranky & irritable because I'm overtired' and 'hysterical & difficult because I want everything to be a certain way', KWIM? Obviously tiredness complicates it. ANYWAY... so we are now on day 2 of an early wakeup (9-9:30am) and last night we were able to get him to sleep by 10 but only because he only took one very short nap. We'll see how it goes with another day or two under our belts. I will say DH & I very much appreciate having an hour or two together to wind down after DS is asleep! But I'm having a hard time figuring out how to get all my hours in for work (I need to average 4 hours a day to keep our health insurance) but a little more sleep deprivation won't kill me I guess!!

Can you try and schedule a week in when you know you won't have to do a lot of car rides and just keep him busy during the day to cut back on naps? It took us about a week or two to cut down DD to one nap a day but we just kept her super busy (like DH would come home early from work, which ensures no napping).

Also, at night we sometimes institute "daddy reading time". Maybe an hour or so before DD needs to go to bed DH takes her into the bedroom, shuts the door and reads all her favorite books to her. I get a break and and it helps to relax her before bedtime.

[foodymama]

crunchy_mommy you're not alone and you're not a horrible mom! Hugs!

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy

He will only fall asleep nursing. Once he falls asleep I have to stay in bed with him (we do this even for naps, he naps on my lap while I work), otherwise he doesn't stay asleep & won't fall back to sleep when he does wake. He will also fall asleep in the car occasionally & when I'm desperate DH will push him around the house in a stroller, but in those cases he won't sleep more than 30-45 minutes.

This sounds identical to my DD. Every time I nurse her to sleep and I try to slip away, if I can at all, she only sleeps by herself for approx. 45 min. I totally understand the late bedtime too. DD usually doesn't go to sleep until 11:00 pm. If we get her to go to sleep before that it is usually just a nap and then she is wide awake.

I think we lead the same life! Lol! I have a DH who needs lots of sleep too and rather play with DD with others around but then DD doesn't want play with DH because apparently to her Mama is better even when Mama is tired and cranky. Back to you original question, I don't think you are unreasonable for asking DH to play with your DS in another room. I wish for some down time as well! I have rheumatoid arthritis so by the night time the fatigue really kicks in and I can really relate that you can't take much more.

[crunchy_mommy]

Well Day 3 of trying for the earlier bedtime & I think I'm giving up. I know he needs time to adjust etc. but I just don't feel like it's working out. He's way more cranky, way more over-tired, I can't nurse him when he wants because he'll fall asleep at the wrong time & that's breaking my heart, I'm exhausted because he's not sleeping well, I can't get my work done.... It was nice having some down time the last couple nights but I just don't think it's worth it (and I feel especially selfish seeing how miserable it's making him, and only for MY benefit). The poor kid is exhausted, I just don't think his biological clock is equipped for the early bedtime.

[ellemenope]

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy

The poor kid is exhausted, I just don't think his biological clock is equipped for the early bedtime.

I am so sorry he is so miserable and you feel this is not working.

It is frustrating to watch you give up after 3 days.

It is so hard for me to understand how you can say he is exhausted and come to the conclusion he needs to go to sleep later. (I guess cause you are waking him up earlier?)

My advice would be not to touch wakeup time at this point and focus on an early nap (and only one) and getting him tired for an early bedtime. If he wakes up, treat it like a nightwaking, not like he woke up from a nap.

It will take at least 2 weeks change his biological clock!

[crunchy_mommy]

I know, I know, 3 days isn't long, it's just we have so many stresses in our lives right now that I don't think any of us could take another 1.5 weeks of this.

When he goes to bed between 8-9:30 -- IF we can get him to bed in the first place -- then he wakes up constantly all night long. Every 30-45 minutes he is up & fussing. He is tired & cranky all day long. This is what we dealt with for months & months & months before we somehow discovered somewhere around 11-12mos old that if he went to bed at 10:30 or 11:30, he slept sooo much better. With the late bedtime he will often sleep several hours straight, he's even slept 6 hours straight with the late bedtime. He isn't cranky during the day (I understand it's consfusing to say he's not cranky but still "hysterical & difficult" but I guess I mean he's not tired & stuff... hopefully that makes sense). It's like night & day, how different he is with the late bedtime. I was hoping it was coincidence so I was wanted to try the earlier bedtime but now that I see it's NOT coincidence, I'm very hesitant to proceed.

Maybe I should explain what I've been trying the last day or so...
Sunday we woke him up at 9:30 for church (this is the only time we wake him early, we have to be at church by 10). He took a nap Sunday afternoon (don't remember when, but it was on the early side) and then he went to bed around 9:30pm. Didn't sleep well at all. Monday morning he woke up around 9:15, on his own, and was miserable all day. He took a nap from 12:30-2:00, and then was really really tired by 7pm. If I let him fall asleep at this point, he'd wake up after an hour & be up 'til 11 or later, so we tried keeping him up another hour or two (this meant I could only nurse him briefly once, nursing him would've put him right to sleep, so DH played with him & gave him snacks etc.) and he fell asleep at 8:50. Again, he slept horribly all night. He woke up at 10am this morning, and right now has been asleep for 45mins, since noon time. So we are back to his "normal" schedule already, on a day like this he will be tired around 7pm and he will only sleep for an hour, and I really don't want to make him wait another 2 hours to fall asleep, it was so hard on us last night.

Maybe I'm not being logical, maybe I need some sense talked into me, I just don't really know what to do.

ETA: I don't really know how to get him back to sleep if he takes a nap from 7-8:30pm or whatever. He will wake up wide awake & happy & get out of bed & talk & look for the dog. His normal night-wakings he doesn't do this -- he just fusses and wants to nurse back down. I get what you're saying, to just try to get him back to sleep, but HOW? He isn't tired & has no interest in nursing or laying down.

[marispel]

Originally Posted by ellemenope

I am so sorry he is so miserable and you feel this is not working.

It is frustrating to watch you give up after 3 days.

It is so hard for me to understand how you can say he is exhausted and come to the conclusion he needs to go to sleep later. (I guess cause you are waking him up earlier?)

My advice would be not to touch wakeup time at this point and focus on an early nap (and only one) and getting him tired for an early bedtime. If he wakes up, treat it like a nightwaking, not like he woke up from a nap.

It will take at least 2 weeks change his biological clock!

I agree with this. Just work on a couple things at a time. Work on getting him to wake up a little earlier and nap earlier. Then don't let him nap again! One nap is plenty unless they are sick.

I really think sticking to a consistent routine will help. If you DS knows that wake up, meals, snacks and naps are at the same time - every.single.day. then he may start feeling better. I do think a biological clock can be adjusted. It will take time and it will take consistency.

Hope things get better!!!

[LoveLife]

OP, I want to encourage you to stick with it. I know its so hard and frustrating. You aren't doing this for just you, your DS will benefit too.

Your DS might need to nap earlier in the day. I was suprised that several times my DS would fall asleep as early as 11-11:30 after getting up at 8-8:30. I let him go to sleep and he woke up super happy and to my suprise, fell asleep only 15 minutes earlier than his usual bedtime. So don't be afraid to put him down. Now that he's adjusted, most of the time its around 12-12:30.

Also, you probably shouldn't let him nap past 3. (If its a late nap day I let my DS go to 3:15, but that's it. Any later and he can't go to sleep @ bedtime.) Also, how long is your DS napping for? 2 hours is perfect for DS, anything less than 1 1/2 and he's cranky, much more than 2 1/2 and he has trouble falling asleep @ night.

What are you doing to promote sleep during the day? What I mean, is are you setting your DS up to get sucessful sleep? Sleepless in American talks about how the decisions we make during the day affect sleep @ night. Things you could do: In the morning, open all the windows and shades- light tells the body to wake up. Eat breakfast 1st thing to get the metabolism going. Help your DS get exercise, especially in the morning. I notice a HUGE difference when DS gets outside to play- naptime is perfect and bedtime is so much easier. If he doesn't get exercise then his body itsn't ready to wind down for sleep even when he's tired.

Also, when evening comes, build in a relax time. Baths wake my DS up, so if he gets one, its BEFORE dinner. (Counterintuitive, I know. LOL.) We don't watch TV before DS goes to bed- the light stimulates him and he can't/won't settle. After dinner we go for a walk, play at the park or stop at the library.

Do you have a bedtime routine? If not- GET ONE. It helps DS know that no matter where we are, its sleep time. Ours is- straighten up toys, feed the dog, get diaper, read books, say prayers, change diaper, kisses and bed.

Last, I would try to get DS to stay alseep at his late "nap" by first, talking to him about it. Not at bedtime, but earlier in the day- when he's awake and happy. Its crazy how much they acutally understand at that age. Make a storyboard. Have him color or pick pictures of a little boy or baby going through the bedtime routine and glue them to a piece of cardboard. A boy brushing his teeth, or reading (and how many books), putting on pajamas, whatever you decide to incorporate into your routine. Then the last one is a picture of a boy that STAYS asleep. And be sure to tell him that babies stay asleep at bedtime. Then when you do the bed time routine, make sure to remind him. He probably won't get it at first, but after you coming in and laying with him until he falls back asleep, eventually he'll get it by himself.

Also, be aware of teething and milestones that could be disrupting sleep making the transition harder.

And do whatever you can to ease stress and tension, LOs can feel that and it REALLY affects their sleep.

I know this is long and hopefully it doesn't come across as preachy. I understand the exhaustion and guilt over choosing a late bed time and/or what seems like poor sleep. I feel for you and really want to help.

[physmom]

Originally Posted by LoveLife

OP, I want to encourage you to stick with it. I know its so hard and frustrating. You aren't doing this for just you, your DS will benefit too.

Your DS might need to nap earlier in the day. I was suprised that several times my DS would fall asleep as early as 11-11:30 after getting up at 8-8:30. I let him go to sleep and he woke up super happy and to my suprise, fell asleep only 15 minutes earlier than his usual bedtime. So don't be afraid to put him down. Now that he's adjusted, most of the time its around 12-12:30.

I.m not going to quote it all but there are a lot of wonderful ideas there! I'm going to steal the story board one myself!!!

I just wanted to add that one thing that has helped us is decreasing the number of lights on before bed and black out curtains.

[marispel]

Is your DS STTN? ever? At this age, they are perfectly capable of sleeping 9,10,11 hrs straight. Are you co-sleeping or does DS have his own room/crib?

What is your bedtime routine? What happens when DS wakes in the night?