would you use bribes? especially if you love UC?

[lisavark]

So I LOVE the book Unconditional Parenting and really like the idea of never using punishments or rewards. I've always tried to avoid any kind of reward system with EC, and for the most part we had a lot of success throughout DD's life (we started EC at two weeks old).

Now she's 26 months, and two months ago she decided she wanted nothing to do with being reminded to go potty. Since she was a year I've been able to keep her in underwear during the day, but it was always because *I* was taking initiative based on timing, not because she was signaling. She would signal occasionally for pees and very consistently for poops, but that was it. I regularly tried backing off and not reminding her, and then she would pee in her pants all day. I decided that helping her stay dry was more important to me than her taking initiative with it, as long as she didn't mind.

Well, around her second birthday she started minding. Any time I reminded her, she said no. I got so frustrated with misses that I even put her back in trainers (I had to buy more because she'd outgrown most of them!), but then she started not minding when she peed in her trainers. She used to hate being wet, but after a few days of trainers full-time, she would laugh and tell me she was peeing in her trainers. So I decided I didn't want her thinking that was okay and put her back in underwear. And then I decided to try bribes again.

And it worked. Yesterday I started offering carob chips if she peed in the potty and kept her underwear dry. I didn't remind her, and she peed in her pants most the day. Then last night she asked to go potty several times in the middle of the night, and in the middle of the night she begged me not to put her diaper back on, so I let her sleep in just pajamas, and she stayed dry all night. Today we had to go out and about, so I did remind her some, but she went happily every time I asked, and she stayed dry all day.

So now I'm looking for opinions. What would you do? I'm definitely going to keep trying to back off from reminding her--but would you keep using a reward if it seemed to be working so well? I'm not sure if it's the kind of thing I want to do generally, but, I mean, I think the problem with rewards is that they destroy intrinsic motivation when used repeatedly over time, and I don't see how there's any way I'm going to destroy her long-term intrinsic motivation to not have wet pants, you know? She is definitely at some point going to decide that peeing in her pants is just not an option ever again. If I can help her stay dry in the meantime with a little...um...extra help...is that a bad thing?

Feel free to say it is...I'm looking for all opinions here. If you think this sounds like a bad idea, I would really like to know why.

TIA!

[theboysmama]

i personally don't think that rewards or bribes or a problem I think the problem is with how they are done. It seems like in your case you don't plan on this being a huge long term thing and it doesn't seem like you are putting any negative conotations on it like (when you pee in the potty you are a big girl and can have a big girl toy, candy, etc infiring that when she doesn't go in the potty she is not a big girl, good girl, etc) It seems to me like you are on the right track. Although it is very important that you start to wean off almost immediately and see how she does, like every other time, then less and less. That way she won't rely on getting something (besides dry pants).

[sapphire_chan]

on the one hand, intrinsic motivation etc etc
on the other hand, how many 5 year olds do you know who demand a treat whenever they use the toilet?

My suspicion is that she sees how important it is to you for her to stay dry and is doing a typical two year old thing of rejecting all things mommy. It was explained in some book or other that kids go through a phase of realizing they aren't mommy/daddy and defining themselves in terms of being NOT mommy/daddy. Thus, the knee-jerk "No!!" responses.

So, I'd see about getting her around some potty-using children so that using the toilet can be about being like other kids.

(And I hope to goodness something works for you, because I can totally see us going through this phase.

[catccc]

I haven’t read U.P., but I think what you are doing is fine. Plus, I think trying to raise a child w/o rewards or punishment is near impossible! When your baby smiles at you and you smile back, that is a reward. When you baby pulls your hair and you make an upset face; that is a punishment. Again, this is just in scientific terms- I’m not sure how the U.P. book defines these terms. A reward is anything that encourages/reinforces a behavior and a punishment is anything that discourages one. Helping your child learn an appropriate behavior, with carob or without, is a good thing to do! And c’mon- it’s just a carob chip. I wouldn’t be surprised if she is getting more reward from the fact that you are giving her a carob chip, not the carob chip itself.

Remember, rewards and punishments work best when they are sporadic. Maybe sometimes when she goes you can say, we don’t have carob chips right now (like when you are out), you can have one when you go later. Or try being out of them some time when you are home. This way she won’t demand carob chips every time, and you can “wean” her off of the reward gradually.

Everything is fine in moderation; I think you are doing a good thing.

[lisavark]

Thanks for the responses--keep them coming! I'd still like to hear from somebody who's really into UP.

In the mean time, though, it seems to be working like magic. Today DD told me ahead of time every single time she needed to potty, and she didn't have a single miss. And I only gave her 2 carob chips--once because she said potty and then changed her mind, and I figured she probably did need to go, and once because we were going to a friend's house and she hadn't peed in two hours, and I didn't want her peeing on my friend's floor (she's done that once already to that friend ). Woo-hoo! I'm not calling grad or anything yet. But I'm pretty stoked.

[DevaMajka]

We are basically UP- no rewards or punishments, "praise" is in the form of specific "You did it!" comments and explaining how actions affect others, etc.

I used a "sticker chart" for ds1 to potty train him. He was in charge of it, so he put stickers on, etc.

In the case of bribes/rewards for pottying, there is a line I would draw. If it seems to be working for everyone- low stress, dc doesn't feel "punished" when they don't potty, it's done in a respectful and considerate way (which it sounds like you are!) etc, I think it can be ok.

eta- I considered bribes with ds1, but had a strong feeling that it would become an issue quickly. He loves sweets, and..yeah, it just wouldn't have gone well. I may consider it for ds2, it would just depend on how he would feel about it.

[Daffodil]

I'm a UP fan, and I think bribes in a case like this are totally fine. Like you said, you don't have to worry about destroying her long-term intrinsic motivation to keep her pants dry.

[InMediasRes]

I like UP as well and try to steer clear of bribes, but for DS1 and the potty, they were aboslutely necessary.

He has bad anxiety about everything, and the potty was no exception. In addition to staying with him and helping him and taking everything REALLY slow, adding a little extra incentive really helped him overcome his fear.

And really, your situation is different, but the effect will probably be the same. You do the bribe for a short time to get past the phase, and then you stop. I think kids at that age are struggling so hard to become a person separate from mom that making another choice seems to help them let go of the power struggle between doing what mom asks and not doing what mom asks.

[averlee]

I had no qualms about bribing my daughter to sit on the potty. I bought a bunch of party favors and wrapped them individually, and she could open one while she sat on the potty. It got her used to sitting there and made a positive association with the whole process.

[zoebird]

ok, we are "really into" UP, and do not consider "consequences" such as pain response from hair pulling to be punishment.

personally, i wouldn't do it.

for me, the value of EC is the communication part of it. what we often get hung up on is the expectation of potty learning by a certain age, or having fewer diapers to change or use, or any number of other expectations that we may hold.

so, i would check my expectations, and then completely back off of whatever that is. as sapphire-chan wrote, kids at this age tend to want to differentiate from mom/dad wants/expectations/needs. it's healthy and normal. so, if you take the desire for her to use the potty off the table, then she's more likely to be interested in it as her own process.

to me, it's obvious that our EC'd kids understand potty. they all 'get' it and have gotten it for a long time. hawk is very clear about understanding potty. he signals when he goes (with or without us in the bathroom or in his diaper-- ie, sometimes he goes next to the toilet on his own), and he cues us when he sees us going to the toilet. he definitely "gets" it.

but, he's not always consistent with having us help him vs helping himself next to the toilet (he won't use little potties; i've tried) vs going in a trainer or just on the floor where ever he is.

and that's ok. it really is. i just clean it up no matter what is happening and we go on about our day.

eventually, it will all click. he knows that other children go, he knows that we go, he knows that he goes. he'll adopt it when he's ready.

[sgmom]

We are a very strong UP family, so there are no bribes or rewards here done for anything. But in the case of something like the potty, I see nothing wrong with offering something interesting to do while sitting, so they don't scream and fight to get off. I also agree with zoebird about the value of EC is the communication.

I sometimes use something to keep my girl on the potty (a toy, fruit, cheese stick, etc) and I guess some might say that I use it as a bribe to sit her on it. But I do believe there's a difference between saying "If you sit on the potty I'll get you some cheese", and "Let's go get some cheese and sit on the potty". Sometimes it's cheese, sometimes it's a book, sometimes it's a cartoon.

She doesn't always pee, but it keeps her there for a minute or two and gives her that chance to go (or not). I only do this when I KNOW she has to go, and most of the time she does pee. If she doesn't pee, I'll ask her if she needs to. She'll shake her head no if she doesn't, and usually she'll ask for more of whatever we're doing (cheese, fruit, tv, etc), if she does.

Your daughter is VERY smart though, so it wouldn't surprise me if your carob chip technique completely backfires after a few days, or she starts to choose her rewards.

What about the use of something like a sticker chart (or in her case, maybe a story book) that she can use to document her progress? Every time she eliminates without reminding, she can make a little story about it (or draw a picture, or whatever). And when her little book is full, you can take her to the store for a new one.

Maybe not this, but something that will make her feel pride for what she's done (keeping herself dry), and not for what she's going to get for doing it.

[sgmom]

PS. I'm sure you already do this, but keeping her in undies and getting her to clean up her own mess wouldn't be such a bad idea either. Tell her it's what she would do at her montessori school. LOL! (kidding)

[zoebird]

at our steiner-based play group, the cat used to sleep in the laundry room next to the potty. so, the kids apparently got quite excited about visiting the cat. now, the cat is rehomed (back with her original family), and so the kids don't have anything interesting to check out.

so, the leader put a little toy in the bathroom that is quite cute and clever. the kids really enjoy getting to do that when they go potty, and so it encourages them to make at least one visit.

Ds is just excited toget to wash his hands after.

[pixiepunk]

i would definitely not do the bribes. I'm not strictly UP, but bribes and rewards are something i try to avoid. the only time i've ever done something like that was after my oldest had massive dental work done and was terrified to brush her teeth. we did a sticker chart, and the reward once a month was a fun family activity that we would've done anyway we only did it for a couple of months, just long enough to help her get over her fear. if it had been something unnecessary i wouldn't have bothered, but brushing her teeth, especially in light of her tendency towards cavities, was not negotiable, so we were just trying to make it pleasant so she'd make a positive connection with it. and i tried to make the reward an experience, vs. a toy or food, which i felt more comfortable about. i don't want my kids to view food especially as a reward, i want them to have a healthy relationship with food.

ita with what zoebird said. ec, at least for me, is not about the end result of being "potty trained" but about respecting my child's autonomy and helping to keep them dry as much as possible. I've considered Elowyn a grad for a looong time now, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have misses now and then. my boy was an almost-grad for nearly a year - out of diapers before 2, but he still needed EC for probably about 9 months beyond that before he was totally ready to make it 100% his responsibility.

remember with 2 year olds that it's all about independence. try to give her choices that lead to the outcome you want. don't ask her if she has to pee, or if she wants/needs to sit on the potty, ask her "hey it's time to potty. do you want to sit on the potty here in the bathroom or out in the kitchen?" or "do you want to read a book while we potty, or play with some blocks?" or maybe "do you want to sit on the potty now, or after we read this story/have this snack/whatever?" letting her make the choices within the parameters of the outcome you want will give her the chance to assert herself and still achieve the desired outcome. when my son was 2 he was so into the power of "no" that once i asked him if he wanted some ice cream and he screamed "NO!" so i put the ice cream away. moments later, sobbing, begging, "mama, please, i want ice cream! i want ice cream!" so the next time we had ice cream my question was "do you want it in a cone or a bowl"

[lisavark]

Yeah, I've done all the "this potty/that potty/this toy/that puzzle (while pottying)/now/later" choices...she generally says NOOO to all of them. Maybe I just need to totally back off. The carob chips are half-working now. For a while there she was taking initiative, but now it's more like I persuade her to sit on the potty by having a carob chip...which I really don't want to do. The whole point was to encourage her to take initiative. I feel like she's at the point where she CAN tell when she needs to go and she CAN tell me in advance...and most of the time she wants to.

And yeah, she does help clean up her mess when she pees on the floor--both at home and at Montessori school!

I guess my biggest issue is that I really don't want to put her in trainers/diapers ever any more, but there are times when it's really, really hard to accept a miss. Like when she's in the nursery at church (anywhere at church, really). Or on the floor of the bookstore or grocery store. Or on a friend's carpet. I mean, I know it happens and it shouldn't be a big deal. But it's tough for me to accept those misses. At home it's no big deal--I keep her in underwear pretty much all the time, unless we're out of dry pants, and I just let her pee on the floor if necessary. But I hate feeling like I need to put her in trainers so we can go out. I want to just let her pee on the floor everywhere...but that's a bit rude in some contexts, you know?

[sgmom]

Originally Posted by lisavark

I guess my biggest issue is that I really don't want to put her in trainers/diapers ever any more, but there are times when it's really, really hard to accept a miss. Like when she's in the nursery at church (anywhere at church, really). Or on the floor of the bookstore or grocery store. Or on a friend's carpet. I mean, I know it happens and it shouldn't be a big deal. But it's tough for me to accept those misses. At home it's no big deal--I keep her in underwear pretty much all the time, unless we're out of dry pants, and I just let her pee on the floor if necessary. But I hate feeling like I need to put her in trainers so we can go out. I want to just let her pee on the floor everywhere...but that's a bit rude in some contexts, you know?

I'd try backing off and just asking her if she wants to sit on the potty at random times during the day. If she says no, then let it be no. I'd also not allow trainers in the house, or wherever a miss ISN'T a big deal, and put her in anything that will keep her uncomfortable outside of the house (ie. NOT pull ups, since they tend to keep the child feeling dry).

EC for me is all about the communication, and this is what I do with my daughter when it starts to feel like I'm pushing too hard. It seems to work fairly well for us.

[boigrrrlwonder]

I'm not completely beyond bribing (not that it works for us), but I avoid using food. I want her to learn to listen to her body when making food choices, and I worry that setting up certain foods (especially sweets) as food that my child gets conditionally will interfere with that.

Personally? I'd keep reminding. I still remind my three year old sometimes. I'd leave it her choice, and throw on a waterproof trainer or diaper when a miss would be a big deal to you.