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My son's first friend (vent)

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
My 4.5 y/o DS is terribly shy and reserved around other people, and for some reason has always insisted that he "doesn't like" kids. He played with other kids for the first time last October, when we were at my SIL's wedding, and DS's two cousins were there. It was awesome, he played with them perfectly and they got along great. The cousins are great kids, very sweet and sensitive.
We have a new neighbor, "J" DS got attached to J right away. They played a lot over the weekend, at my house and theirs, and outside. J is much more outgoing than DS, and though he's just 6 months older, he is far more sophisticated than DS. I saw some slightly disturbing things while they played over the weekend, but chalked it up to typical kid behavior. Unfortunately it progressed, and I had to kick J out of my house this afternoon.
Now, before I go into a diatribe, I want to say that I understand perfectly well that he is only 5 years old. I don't even dislike the kid. I just don't like his behavior. His parents are divorcing, so I expect that has something to do with his behavior. Here is a list of what I witnessed over the past 3 days:

He always has to be in control of EVERY toy, and every game. Even in my son's bedroom, J will hoard the toys, and I will hear DS say, "Can I play with that now?" Of course, J will say "No."

Today, he was hitting himself on the head with toys, and then saying "Why did you hurt me?" I even came in the room and told DS not to throw toys. Then I saw J hitting himself in the head with a toy and blaming it on DS.

DS asked J today, "Do you like my train track?" J said, "No, it's horrible."

J will say, "Do you want to play with this toy?" DS will say "Yes," and J will say, "No, I want it now."

He is rude. I came into the bedroom today while they were playing, and he said, "What are you doing in here?" Also, when I told him that DS can't play after 4:00, he started grilling me about the reasons why. I was taken aback by this and actually gave him a reason-that DS's dad gets home and it's their time together. When I left the room, J asked DS if his dad really WAS about to be home.

He has no boundaries or respect for other people's property. He throws toys all over DS's room, trashing the place. What's funny is that today when DH got home, I explained to him that J does not respect other's possessions. As I was talking, DH interrupted me to say, "Wait a minute...did J just take something off someones porch and throw it down the stairs?" He had taken someone's plastic decorative duck and tossed it down the stairs.

The final straw for me, the one that made me kick J out of my house, was when he started destroying the train track that DS was building. DS got upset, and I told J to leave.

I am so sad over this, since DS really likes J. He's been talking about how much he likes him, and he waited all day long to play with him. DH and I have explained to DS that he won't be spending much time with J, and we gave him the reasons why.
J's mom is really nice and we had a good rapport. I'm sure I will eventually have to explain to her why I suddenly don't want DS to play with her son. Since J has already shown his ability to be reckless and destructive to other peoples property, I do NOT want my son associated with that behavior.

I will not permit my son to be around kids who are mean to him. He is an incredibly sweet kid, not a mean or devious bone in his body. He's certainly not perfect, and I've been on here more that once expressing exasperation at some of his behaviors. But mean and bullying he is not. I think he was just confused over J's behavior and didn't know enough to be hurt by it. I don't expect any kids to play perfectly together, and any of those things that I mentioned J doing would not be means for concern if they were isolated incidents of "kids being kids." It's just the pattern of these behaviors that I find objectionable, and I won't have my son around it, not while I can still protect him.
post #2 of 19
I think that J could be a good friend for your son. I think that it could be very good that you have the opportunity to be the playdate supervisor regularly. If you have them play in the same room as you all the time until you believe this behavior is dealt with (and when you see it you gently correct and help the child learn the kind way to treat your DS), it could work.

I also think a little assertiveness training with your DS would help too. My DD is similar to your DS from what you describe, and it has helped her to see how other kids behave and how they handle eachother when other kids do mean things at the local playgroup. I am right there and if there is a need for me to protect her she has me, but for the most part she just gets to observe and see how those crazy unpredictable small children do.

I get it that the other boy did bad things and sounds like a bit of a brat. But he didn't really do anything evil, he sounds like he was testing your DS and you. If he doesn't listen to his mom I think that is pretty well easy to expect.

It might be too much work for you to do all this - I get that and wouldn't blame you a bit. But I do think that your son could be friends with J if you monitored them.

Tjej
post #3 of 19
I agree with the PP. I think you could teach DS how to be assertive and deal with people like this, because he will continue to come into contact with them. If you take away his friend, he might resent it, and definitely won't learn anything from it, other than mommy won't let him play with his friend.
post #4 of 19
Thread Starter 
True, DS does need to learn to stand up for himself. I just don't think he realizes when he is being taken advantage of. He's confused, like, "Why the heck is he not letting me play with my own toys, etc..." J is really nicey-nice sounding all the time, which will make it hard for DS to understand when J is not being nice to him at all. Now, I am all for supervising these visits. I will let J over to play for limited amounts of time and I will explain the rules to him. He just ignored me today when I repeatedly told him he needed to share the toys. Should I just kick him out after ignoring one warning? How should I handle it? This is my first time dealing with any situation like this. It's really stressing me out-I don't want to have to parent the neighbor kid.
post #5 of 19
I think it's fine to "parent" your neighbor kid, if you were the sole supervisor, and if you want to and are willing. If his mom is present, then you can let her deal with his behavior, but if you are the only adult, then you can be the moderator.

I agree with Tjej. This could work out, possibly if you were willing to supervise more closely and maybe ask his mom, in non-judgmental way, to guide him a bit in how to be a good friend.

Try to approach his behavior very matter-of-factly and put down the rules and if he can't follow it after couple tries and diversion, what have you, then cut the play date short, saying, "J, I can see that you have hard time following the rules. We are going to stop the play date because it's getting bit unpleasant for everyone. I expect you to bring your good behavior, the next time we play. Good-bye." Do this before anyone (including you) gets upset and end in a good note, until he gets that he can't play with your son, unless he brings good behavior. For sharing toys, maybe direct them a bit in cooperative playing and timed turn taking. "You can take this train and you can take this train, and now you guys can go load up your train. choo choo."(playful tone) OR "Okay, J. You have been playing with that toy for a long time and DS really wants to play with it, too. After 5 minutes, it will be DS's turn. Here's the timer." (matter of factly)

etc etc...

And I understand if it's too much work for you. Try to start with 30 minute play date at a time. And just be up front with J and J's mom or grandma that J sometimes has hard time showing good play manner and that you want to do some "practice" runs for everyone to be on a same page about what is good playing manner.

Hope it works out.
post #6 of 19
You probably will have to send J home a few times, but if the rules are consistent, he will get the hang of it. Boundaries are healthy for you and J.
post #7 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonyoungi View Post
I think it's fine to "parent" your neighbor kid, if you were the sole supervisor, and if you want to and are willing. If his mom is present, then you can let her deal with his behavior, but if you are the only adult, then you can be the moderator.

I agree with Tjej. This could work out, possibly if you were willing to supervise more closely and maybe ask his mom, in non-judgmental way, to guide him a bit in how to be a good friend.

Try to approach his behavior very matter-of-factly and put down the rules and if he can't follow it after couple tries and diversion, what have you, then cut the play date short, saying, "J, I can see that you have hard time following the rules. We are going to stop the play date because it's getting bit unpleasant for everyone. I expect you to bring your good behavior, the next time we play. Good-bye." Do this before anyone (including you) gets upset and end in a good note, until he gets that he can't play with your son, unless he brings good behavior. For sharing toys, maybe direct them a bit in cooperative playing and timed turn taking. "You can take this train and you can take this train, and now you guys can go load up your train. choo choo."(playful tone) OR "Okay, J. You have been playing with that toy for a long time and DS really wants to play with it, too. After 5 minutes, it will be DS's turn. Here's the timer." (matter of factly)

etc etc...

And I understand if it's too much work for you. Try to start with 30 minute play date at a time. And just be up front with J and J's mom or grandma that J sometimes has hard time showing good play manner and that you want to do some "practice" runs for everyone to be on a same page about what is good playing manner.

Hope it works out.
Thank you so much for that reply. I sometimes need step-by-step instructions in new situations and that was very helpful. I was thinking last night that the solution is actually simple: short, supervised playdates which are ended if J can't cooperate. I was just unsure of how to directly handle it, other than saying, "Ok, J, it's time for you to go home now." I am not a confrontational person in any way and I will avoid it sometimes at all costs. But in this instance I don't feel a bit bad or hesitant about discussing this with J's mom. What should I say without sounding like I'm attacking her kid?
This is a touchy issue for me b/c I was the kid who was easily pushed around. I wasn't the target of school bullies, but I had several female "friends" who were mean and manipulative to me. I wish my mom would have put a stop to it but she didn't do anything to monitor my friendships. My DH was (and still is!) extremely kind and respectable as a kid, but he never had any friends who were mean to him b/c he's always had good instincts in regards to choosing friends.
I know there are loads of sweet kids out there for DS to befriend but I've been unable to find them
post #8 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaMoo View Post
I know there are loads of sweet kids out there for DS to befriend but I've been unable to find them
I am very shy with other adults, so I can't help you on how to talk to J's mom really, but I do know that I have really worked hard at trying to find friends for DS, and it's tough work! I empathize with you on this very much.

Recently, I have tried to put myself out there and introduced myself to any neighborhood mom who has kids DS's age. This is definitely not something I normally do, but I really want for DS to have friends. It's been an interesting experience. So far, we have one friend who seems pretty pleasant.
post #9 of 19
Thread Starter 
Thanks so much for those kind and empathetic words. I am terribly awkward around other adults unless they are the gregarious type and I don't have to be responsible for too much of the small talk Now I absolutely HAVE to socialize more for DS's sake. We were in one of those "Music Together" classes last year, and there was a very sweet boy in that class around DS's age and now I'm kicking myself for not hooking up a play date. I always knew I'd be selective with regards to DS's friends, but I don't want to be bashed for being overly controlling. The way I feel about is that he's only 4 and doesn't know the difference between good friends and not-so-good friends. J is a learning experience for both of us
post #10 of 19
What would really help is a couple of kids who are nice themselves, but don't put up with nonsense. Then they'd handle telling J it isn't okay to act that way, and show DS how it's done.

As it is, supervise and talk them through interactions until either J stops the lousy behaviors or your ds starts calling J on them.
post #11 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
What would really help is a couple of kids who are nice themselves, but don't put up with nonsense. Then they'd handle telling J it isn't okay to act that way, and show DS how it's done.

As it is, supervise and talk them through interactions until either J stops the lousy behaviors or your ds starts calling J on them.
That's exactly what my son needs-nice and assertive kids to model how to stand up for himself. I'm on a kid-hunt now
I've decided to just tell J's mom flat out the reasons why J's time around my kid will be quite limited (I've decided there will be no playing on weekdays, and only a half hour or so of supervised play on weekends). I will be quite polite, and state my concerns, what I've witnessed, and why I had to ask J to leave my home last time he visited. I will be quite surprised if no one has raised these concerns with her before now.

*sigh* Being a mom is so hard sometimes
post #12 of 19
I have noticed that during the first few playdates kids tend to really test boundaries and need a lot of supervision and redirection so they can learn the house expectations. I will stop a game and redirect a child to give a turn, stop doing something, or to talk to a child about how to rephrase something more politely during those first few visits. After the first four or five though it goes much more smoothly even with a child who starts out wanting to control play and hog toys. I don't think it was rude for him to ask you questions, many kids are used to being able to ask about the reasons behind things so it may be that he is from a family that allows him to know why they are making certain decisions. I also don't think it was rude for him to ask if your sons dad is really coming home. Since his parents are divorcing he probably has a lot of curiosity about other people having dads who come home. He may also have heard his mom say his dad is coming home out of hope even though he actually isn't so he may not trust that you know what is up. I think you should give it a few more chances, but up the supervision and redirection and shorten the visits to maybe an hour and a half.
post #13 of 19
I think that if you want to be friendly with J's family and his mom you won't approach it the way you detailed. I would be pretty offended if some stranger took it upon themself to tell me my parenting flaws and the things that are socially wrong with my precious child.

Kids can be mean. It doesn't mean they are evil or that they are even not a potential good friend. It does mean they need to learn kindness and respect. It's fine that you don't want to be the one to teach this boy, but I'd really suggest you keep your ideas to yourself if you don't want a really awkward relationship with your new neighbor.

Tjej
post #14 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjej View Post
I think that if you want to be friendly with J's family and his mom you won't approach it the way you detailed. I would be pretty offended if some stranger took it upon themself to tell me my parenting flaws and the things that are socially wrong with my precious child.

Kids can be mean. It doesn't mean they are evil or that they are even not a potential good friend. It does mean they need to learn kindness and respect. It's fine that you don't want to be the one to teach this boy, but I'd really suggest you keep your ideas to yourself if you don't want a really awkward relationship with your new neighbor.

Tjej
So, telling J's mom the reason I need to supervise their interactions is pointing out her parenting flaws? I definitely want to be tactful about this, but won't she be curious? Should I just not say anything? That's fine with me. Or I could be vague and just tell her that since my son is still new at socializing I need to monitor his interactions.
I don't think this kid is evil. I know kids can be mean, but if the kid is a friend worth having, then the meanness should be kept to a minimum and balanced out by nicer behavior. Having friends is new for DS and I was hoping for a better introduction into the world of playmates.
post #15 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaMoo View Post
...
I've decided to just tell J's mom flat out the reasons why J's time around my kid will be quite limited ... I will be quite polite, and state my concerns, what I've witnessed, and why I had to ask J to leave my home last time he visited. I will be quite surprised if no one has raised these concerns with her before now....
I agree that this is NOT going to work. Mama-bear mode would kick in. Would you want somebody else telling you that? She won't agree, and it won't solve anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MommaMoo View Post
...the solution is actually simple: short, supervised playdates which are ended if J can't cooperate. I was just unsure of how to directly handle it, other than saying, "Ok, J, it's time for you to go home now."
I change the phrasing, even with my own kids, so that it is not *me* doing something to *them*. Give the kids the control. So, you would say something like "If we can't share toys, the playdate will be cut short".

I also agree with the timer, each kid gets 3 minutes with a toy they are fighting over.

You can tell Grandma that *you* are uncomfortable with your own son playing outside of your supervision. And go to their house with him. Don't make it about them and the flaws you see in their family. Make it about you.

I agree that you will have to be a parental role model, and expend energy to teach this kid. I don't think you can or should avoid them over these particular behaviors. Even tho I totally understand the desire to avoid this bratty ugly behavior!!!
post #16 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMommy2 View Post
I agree that this is NOT going to work. Mama-bear mode would kick in. Would you want somebody else telling you that? She won't agree, and it won't solve anything.

I change the phrasing, even with my own kids, so that it is not *me* doing something to *them*. Give the kids the control. So, you would say something like "If we can't share toys, the playdate will be cut short".

I also agree with the timer, each kid gets 3 minutes with a toy they are fighting over.

You can tell Grandma that *you* are uncomfortable with your own son playing outside of your supervision. And go to their house with him. Don't make it about them and the flaws you see in their family. Make it about you.

I agree that you will have to be a parental role model, and expend energy to teach this kid. I don't think you can or should avoid them over these particular behaviors. Even tho I totally understand the desire to avoid this bratty ugly behavior!!!
Thank you for this advice. It'll be a lot of work for me to monitor all of their goings-on, so their play time is going to be limited anyway. Last night I was re-reading my favorite parenting book, "Hold on to Your Kids." I no longer feel that ds NEEDS to spend a bunch of time with other kids. So I'm not going to avoid the neighbor family, but I'm also not going to seek out play dates. DS is the epitome of an adult-oriented child and as such is still very immature when it comes to social situations with his peers. J is light years ahead of DS in this regard. DS still needs time to grow before he can really handle other kids on his own. Also, DH and I are very private people. I am terribly introverted. We need our home to be our sanctuary and we don't want neighbor kids running in and out of the house. So regardless of J's behavior, structured play times are in order. I want to be on friendly terms with the neighbors, but I also don't want to be overly friendly and familiar.
post #17 of 19
I've dealt with all sorts of different kids in my home, friends of my own children, as well as daycare children.
What I've found with kids like J, (bossy, 'mean' , toy hogging, saucy, etc....) is I have to have an organized activity in a central part of the house. Like playdoh at the kitchen table, paints and paper at the kithchen table, cars and trucks/dinosaurs/dollies on the living room floor. I make sure I'm within sight and earshot and every time something happens I jump in, tell the offender it's not kind....blah blah blah, then re-explain the rules in our house.
One thing I hear myself saying over and over is "not in this house...."
Once the child gets used to the 'rules' they usually settle down, but it takes more than a few visits.

Another thing....I never let other kids in my kids rooms for more than 10 minutes at a time. I've found that any longer than 10 minutes there's bound to be trouble (whether they're 5 or 16)

OP, could you maybe pop over with tea and your little guy when Grandma's there? Sometimes it's good to see the other side of the coin. To me, it sounds like she knows just what he's like.
post #18 of 19
I would keep plugging away at this. J just needs to learn how to interact.

I don't think I would let your son go over there alone yet. Maybe with you, or outside while you and Grandma chat, and the kids play. That way, you can see how Grandma interacts. She may have the "My grandson can do no wrong" attitude, and you don't want her to be in charge of both of them.

It will probably get better, and this will give you an opportunity to help your son with social skills and defending himself.
post #19 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by childsplay View Post
I've dealt with all sorts of different kids in my home, friends of my own children, as well as daycare children.
What I've found with kids like J, (bossy, 'mean' , toy hogging, saucy, etc....) is I have to have an organized activity in a central part of the house. Like playdoh at the kitchen table, paints and paper at the kithchen table, cars and trucks/dinosaurs/dollies on the living room floor. I make sure I'm within sight and earshot and every time something happens I jump in, tell the offender it's not kind....blah blah blah, then re-explain the rules in our house.
One thing I hear myself saying over and over is "not in this house...."
Once the child gets used to the 'rules' they usually settle down, but it takes more than a few visits.

Another thing....I never let other kids in my kids rooms for more than 10 minutes at a time. I've found that any longer than 10 minutes there's bound to be trouble (whether they're 5 or 16)

OP, could you maybe pop over with tea and your little guy when Grandma's there? Sometimes it's good to see the other side of the coin. To me, it sounds like she knows just what he's like.
Keeping them out of the bedroom is a great idea. I think I'm just paranoid about parenting J, like his mom is going to yell at me if I redirect him or tell him that "In this house, we share," etc... Realistically she probably wouldn't do that. I just have to keep repeating to myself.."My house, my rules."
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