Can we talk about IQ testing?

[Icequeen_in_ak]

And what your thoughts are on it?

I've always been reluctant to put my daughter through any testing (the requests started at age 4 from her preschool) and it's been brought up again by our home school district. The director evidently requested that we have her IQ tested.

What are the advantages/disadvantages?

They won't give me a direct reason for it, other than they will pay for it, if I consent to it.... which makes me wonder the motives.

[no5no5]

Sure.

To me, it seems like something worth knowing, so we plan to test. I don't really see any disadvantages, except that it is, of course, possible to get inaccurate results. Testing is usually fun, and in your case it would be free.

As far as your situation is concerned, I think more details are needed. Is your daughter currently in gifted programming? Is gifted programming available in your district? Is she doing well in school (academically, socially, etc.)? What test does the district plan to use, and who will administer it?

The only reason I'd really worry about motive is if she is in gifted programming and they may be looking for a way to claim that she doesn't really need it. Otherwise, I'd assume that their motives are that they are trying to get more information that will help them tailor her education. It is also possible that there is a financial motive involved.

[Icequeen_in_ak]

She is home schooled, so no, she's not involved in any gifted programs. Our situation up here is a little different in that many of our home schoolers are funded through our school districts (mainly came into play because we have so many rural areas that needed distance education capabilities) so each year they give us an allotted amount to utilize towards their education.

That is why I'm confused as to why they want her tested. I could understand if she was in a brick and mortar setting.

The testing would be administered by the district psychologist.

I'm just afraid of her being "labeled". I mean, she's significantly advanced academically right now, so yes, she could be viewed as special, but if somebody assigns that label to her and lets say 10 years down the road she evens out, then suddenly she feels less than adequate for being a normal child... y/k? I just don't want to put any expectations or labels on her if that makes sense.

[whatsnextmom]

The neccessity of testing really has to do with your circumstances. My DD didn't test until 8th grade. It just wasn't neccessary. No one ever doubted she was gifted. She was able to get every accomodation without scores including a grade skip. What finally made us request testing was the high school she's heading into has a highly gifted program but she needed scores to qualify. My DS was tested routinely in 2nd grade. His elementary has a more formal GATE program than my DD's school had and so he needed the scores to get in. It was a painless process and the kids don't dwell on the subject at all. We were told when DD was in kindie by the principal that testing wasn't going to tell us anything we didn't already know and she was absolutely right.

It doesn't seem particularly useful in your situation.

[kriket]

I don't see any advantages to be tested at 4. I can see being tested if you are interested in joining a group or getting money for school etc, but just so you have a number to assign? Or like PP said, so you have a label to live up to for the rest of your life? What's the point?

[loraxc]

I don't think I follow--what led to them asking you to test her? What will happen if she tests gifted?

I do want my DD tested, but she is in public school. That said, my reading on the subject leads me to believe that it is not going to be that helpful. I am pretty sure she will score over 120 and below 150, and that the number will tell us "Yes, she is gifted" and not much more. I feel like the current tests are not designed to tease out much in terms of gifted vs MG vs HG or whatever. I think subtest scores will be of more interest, though, as I suspect she has significant unevenness as well as some areas of strength that nobody is very tuned in to.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by Icequeen_in_ak

She is home schooled, so no, she's not involved in any gifted programs. Our situation up here is a little different in that many of our home schoolers are funded through our school districts (mainly came into play because we have so many rural areas that needed distance education capabilities) so each year they give us an allotted amount to utilize towards their education.

That is why I'm confused as to why they want her tested. I could understand if she was in a brick and mortar setting.

If the district isn't testing for access to specialized services, then I can think of 2 reasons:

1. Funding. If giftedness is classified as a special education need in your district, then perhaps the district will receive more funding for every special education student it identifies. Money is usually a motivator for an institution.

2. Data collection/Research. Another reason would be if there is some protocol to test some or all students in the district for information gathering and research purposes. I'd ask what will happen to the data collected.

To answer your question though, the advantage to testing is to gain some insight into a child's learning processes. It can clarify and/or identify learning issues. In our case, we gained some helpful information, because both children are not entirely globally gifted (gifted on all indices). As loraxc mentioned, the subtest scores were of most interest because they revealed unevenness and gave us more specific information about strengths and weaknesses.

If you don't think you need that information from testing, then by all means, you can forego it, especially if you aren't trying to access special programs.

You raise concerns about labeling and ask what will happen if she "evens out" as she gets older. I think it's a myth that gifted children "even out". I think some lose their passion for learning. Often it happens because they've been bored to distraction in unsuitable learning environments.

We've worked hard to avoid labeling issues with our dc. When they were assessed, we didn't tell them it was to access gifted programming. At the time of the assessment, we explained that they were going to do some puzzles and problems, so that we could figure out how they learn and what's the best kind of class for them to learn in. After they entered the gifted program, we explained that it was one option but there were others that students might choose, including language immersion (which some of their gifted friends opted for), exclusively home learning, staying in the regular class (which other friends opted for)...With so many educational options, I haven't found labeling to be a real issue.

[cdahlgrd]

I would want to know why. Do they want it because you are already homeschooling and they want a "reason" for the "early entrance"?

We did have our oldest tested because we knew he was smart, but he was also hard of hearing. The IQ test proves that to teachers. So when they start to say, "Well, he isn't the lowest in the class. . . " We can point out his IQ scores and let them know that he must have missed some informations.

As for evening out later. . . nope. I don't believe it. I think kids lose confidence in themselves or motivation. I don't think an extra smart kid ever becomes "average".

[itsmyturn]

If they are paying for it, I don't see the harm.
I would however, want to know their motive before I allowed them access to my kids IQ score.
I have never heard of a homeschool group needing access to IQ. Research maybe?

[whatsnextmom]

You raise concerns about labeling and ask what will happen if she "evens out" as she gets older. I think it's a myth that gifted children "even out". I think some lose their passion for learning. Often it happens because they've been bored to distraction in unsuitable learning environments.

I wouldn't say that "evening out" is entirely a myth. There is a point when truely gifted children become "less different." In kindie, when they are reading at the 5th grade level, they are aliens in the classroom. However, once a kid hits the 5th grade level in reading, there is little they can't read comfortably. The gap between the 1st and 3rd grade level reader seems incredibly large but the gap between the 5th and 8th grade is so minimal you don't even know when it happens. By 3rd grade, there are always many kids who are reading 5th grade or above and so the gifted reader doesn't really seem so different. In fact, typical age interests can have them choosing much of the same material. The gifted child is still a gifted learner but she is also less different and more "even" with her peers once school stops being about learning to read. By 3rd and 4th grade, they can often be assigned the same projects and essays. They may write and research at a higher level but the topic doesn't need to be different where in kindergarten, there was almost NO work they could share.

There are also more and more cases of non-gifted kids starting advanced because they've had very enriched home lives (I'm not talking reading novels advanced... I'm talking can get through a BOB book.) They weren't advanced because they learned faster. They were advanced because they had 2 years extra repetition than the other kids. However, developmentally ready kids will jump that "2 year extra repetition" gap very quickly. By 3rd grade, the difference between those kids with heavily enriched preschool years and those that just explored and played will drop off.

I know, this is off topic. It's just something I've been watching for many years.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom

There is a point when truely gifted children become "less different." In kindie, when they are reading at the 5th grade level, they are aliens in the classroom. However, once a kid hits the 5th grade level in reading, there is little they can't read comfortably.

agreed. My 6th grader reads on a college level and it isn't a big deal. Reading class consist of reading interesting stories she most likely wouldn't pick up on her own which are age appropriate. She enjoys it quite a lot. They are good stories! She's more likely to go get the book out of the library that the selection was chosen from than her average peers, but she can still enjoy her reading text book.

There's a really big difference between reading something interesting that isn't at the top of your range and reading something VERY dull because it's the only thing the other kids in the class can handle.

Few of us read at the top of our range all the time.

There are also more and more cases of non-gifted kids starting advanced ... They were advanced because they had 2 years extra repetition than the other kids. However, developmentally ready kids will jump that "2 year extra repetition" gap very quickly.

agreed. It's very common.

Back to the OP, I think that making a big deal out of how bright a child is and tieing their intelligence to their value as a person is a poor parenting choice, but people do it all the time with or without IQ test. Kids who get the message that their value as a person is linked to how smart they are tend to think that EVERYTHING is supposed to come easily to them, shy away from things that are difficult for them, and have more social problems. But this doesn't really have much to do with the IQ test, it's what you do with the information that matters.

I'd want to know *why* they want to test and what they will do with the information, and how it could effect my deal with the home school board.

Both my kids' IQs have been tested. For my 6th grader, it gets her in a pull out program that she really enjoys. For my DD with mild special needs, it ensures that her teachers know that she is super bright, even though she has autism, so the expectations of her remain appropriate (and high!). Both of these, though, are about making school work.

[moominmamma]

We've been in a similar situation. We homeschool. We are enrolled with a school-type program that gives us funding in exchange for reporting and oversight. There are many such programs available to us and when my eldest was in 3rd grade we were with a program which was had been very "loose" but was becoming a fair bit more structured and rigid. They were requesting workbook type "evidence of learning" in the five core subject areas. My dd hated workbooks and producing "output" for others to evaluate, though she was thriving in a million ways. The school suggested going through the necessary testing to label her gifted and dysgraphic so that they could justify having more flexibility in requiring grade-level evidence of learning. Without the gifted designation they were unwilling to afford us the flexibility of simply working at whatever level she was at. They wanted evidence that 3rd grade spelling and punctuation teaching was being given and mastered, even if she was writing at a high school level with excellent basic skills.

We found a different school program instead.

My homeschooled kids are all likely gifted but have not been tested. As unschoolers we love that they are free to define their own goals and expectations and that they have neither the expectations of a standard age-leveled curriculum nor the expectations of what giftedness looks like or should be. They appreciate that all people learn differently. They appreciate that school learning is very much lockstep in nature and love being free of that. They are thriving.

My eldest was eventually tested a few months after entering a bricks-and-mortar public high school because her designation brings the school a few hundred extra bucks a year in funding that they desperately need. I was sure she was mature enough and self-directed enough to over-ride any subtle effects labeling might create. I figured it was the least we could do for the school, as they had been incredibly flexible and generous in giving her exactly what she wanted (a weird, part-time, mostly independent-study program with whatever courses she wanted). She was not given the results and it has not affected anything about her program.

I do see potential harm in testing and labeling. Whether the child tests higher or lower than everyone expects I can see the possibility of parental and school expectations shifting or becoming more rigid. If the child is thriving and there are no niggling concerns about learning disabilities (2E concerns) I don't see that there is any likelihood that anything substantive will be gained.

Miranda

[loraxc]

In kindie, when they are reading at the 5th grade level, they are aliens in the classroom. However, once a kid hits the 5th grade level in reading, there is little they can't read comfortably. The gap between the 1st and 3rd grade level reader seems incredibly large but the gap between the 5th and 8th grade is so minimal you don't even know when it happens. By 3rd grade, there are always many kids who are reading 5th grade or above and so the gifted reader doesn't really seem so different.

OT, but thanks for this--it's a good thing for me to hear right now (since we are at the "alien in kindergarten" stage). It makes me think of kids acquiring spoken language, actually--both my kids got a fair bit of "What the hell" attention at ages 1 and 2, because so many age peers were speaking not at all or very little. But when kids reach 3 or so, almost everyone is talking pretty well and the child can blend in and relate to peers a lot more. That was a welcome thing for me, so it's nice to look ahead to something similar happening with reading.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom

I wouldn't say that "evening out" is entirely a myth. There is a point when truely gifted children become "less different." In kindie, when they are reading at the 5th grade level, they are aliens in the classroom. However, once a kid hits the 5th grade level in reading, there is little they can't read comfortably. The gap between the 1st and 3rd grade level reader seems incredibly large but the gap between the 5th and 8th grade is so minimal you don't even know when it happens. By 3rd grade, there are always many kids who are reading 5th grade or above and so the gifted reader doesn't really seem so different. In fact, typical age interests can have them choosing much of the same material. The gifted child is still a gifted learner but she is also less different and more "even" with her peers once school stops being about learning to read. By 3rd and 4th grade, they can often be assigned the same projects and essays. They may write and research at a higher level but the topic doesn't need to be different where in kindergarten, there was almost NO work they could share.

There are also more and more cases of non-gifted kids starting advanced because they've had very enriched home lives (I'm not talking reading novels advanced... I'm talking can get through a BOB book.) They weren't advanced because they learned faster. They were advanced because they had 2 years extra repetition than the other kids. However, developmentally ready kids will jump that "2 year extra repetition" gap very quickly. By 3rd grade, the difference between those kids with heavily enriched preschool years and those that just explored and played will drop off.

I know, this is off topic. It's just something I've been watching for many years.

I might agree if giftedness was only about early reading. Yes, there are bright hardworkers and hothoused children who demonstrate early academic skill achievement. With gifted students, it isn't just about achievement, though, it's also about ability. I don't agree that gifted ability evens out. The gifted student is going to demonstrate a different capacity for learning, more developed critical thinking skills, unusual lateral thinking, leaps in intuition, etc. etc. They aren't going to slow down as they get older. Those cognitive abilities will outpace other children their age, even as those other children gain and become proficient with basic academic skills of reading and math.

I've been hearing the "even out" argument for years from people who say they "don't believe in giftedness". They also don't believe in funding special programs for gifted learners.

To bring this back to the OP, it may be difficult to identify the bright, hardworking achiever from a moderately gifted learner at a young age. Your dd may be either. I suspect that if educators have been suggesting for years that she be tested for giftedness that she is likely gifted. I find educators who do understand giftedness have an accurate sense of which students are gifted. There doesn't seem to be a downside to testing, since you are homeschooling and not seeking out special programs. If you aren't interested in the results and have no need for them - you are content with your understanding of her learning patterns and she doesn't need special programs or funding - then you can simply review the results for interest and then put them in a drawer after you get them. It doesn't seem like testing is necessary either, though. Good luck with the decision.

[moominmamma]

Even-ing out or not, once teaching kids how to read is no longer the primary focus of the classroom, the awkwardness of accommodating an advanced highly capable learner abates to an extent. When my eldest was 5 and reading at a high school level, putting her in a classroom that spent a third of its time taking teaching basic pre-literacy and literacy skills like letter sounds and sight words would have been deadly. As a 16-year-old she's academically still light years beyond other 16-year-olds, but she can find interest and challenge in an English Literature course where she's studying Shakespeare and a variety of dystopian themes in modern fiction.

Miranda

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by moominmamma

Even-ing out or not, once teaching kids how to read is no longer the primary focus of the classroom, the awkwardness of accommodating an advanced highly capable learner abates to an extent. When my eldest was 5 and reading at a high school level, putting her in a classroom that spent a third of its time taking teaching basic pre-literacy and literacy skills like letter sounds and sight words would have been deadly. As a 16-year-old she's academically still light years beyond other 16-year-olds, but she can find interest and challenge in an English Literature course where she's studying Shakespeare and a variety of dystopian themes in modern fiction.

Miranda

I don't want to sidetrack the discussion, because I'm not sure how helpful the OP will find a discussion about "even-ing out", bright achievers vs. giftedness, and in-class differentiation as an accommodation for gifted students in the regular classroom - which is where this is going, I think.

I guess I will just say that if true, and there is an "even-ing out" that generally occurs and/or there is less struggle to provide for older gifted students in the regular classroom, then the OP has even LESS reason to be concerned that testing will have a negative impact. If I understand correctly, the OP was worried that her dd may even out and will feel inadequate for not living up to a label of giftedness. If we accept that even-ing out happens and/or the awkwardness of accommodation abates as all students gain reading proficiency, then she shouldn't be concerned about the test outcomes - either way.

[whatsnextmom]

I don't agree that gifted ability evens out. The gifted student is going to demonstrate a different capacity for learning, more developed critical thinking skills, unusual lateral thinking, leaps in intuition, etc. etc.

I didn't say that gifted ability evens out. What I said was that gifted learners become less different as they age. It's not them dropping down, it's their peers becoming more able to work alongside them. My DD is in 8th grade (1 year accelerated) and her teachers say they don't expect to see writing like hers until college. However, she thrives in her 8th grade honors English class alongside children who are not gifted but who are interested and hard working. Are they truely even? No one that works closely with them would say so but they can school together which was not the case in the beginning.

I used reading as an example because it's something most people with young children have experience with. I do understand your frustration. You can't imagine how many times we heard that line when my oldest first accelerated. However, while it's over-used and misunderstood, I have come to understand it.

[Tjej]

I think there is a big difference between "even-ing out" and the abatement of difficulty of accommodation.

I would suppose that if it was a case of "even-ing out" for her DD later, test results could help (if said child has an average IQ, then it would be expected for the "even-ing" to happen). For the "alien in kindy" thing, I don't think test results would help anything, besides the subscores being helpful for understanding learning patterns.

Tjej

[meemee]

you know something i have heard some say that by college level - you cant really tell the difference between gifted and not.

i beg to differ. i have spoken to students who just seem to soak in calculus and chemistry through their skin. getting a 99 or 100 on their tests are no big deal even when the rest of the class is getting really low scores if not failing. they were in GATE classes.

there is just something different about them. at any level. at any place. at even the work place.

ICEQUEEN - you have brought up two different points

IQ testing and labeling.

IQ testing. well i dont see any harm in it. like others pointed out it can be quite a revealation. however i am not sure if you will get a straight answer out of the director. i have seen my school refusing to say why my dd cant miss more than the alloted days of school. we all know because of funding reason but they wont come out and say so.

labeling. i dont see any harm in that either. being ' gifted' as the school puts it means having a high IQ score. no matter what age you are except for a few points that score does not change. a GATE child can 'even out' at high school or even go downhill - depending on their own life issues - not because they lost some brain cells.

what could happen at college - if you have been underchallenged all through school - is figure out organisational skills. you cannot any longer just slough off as you did in school. you now have to put in the work.

however social issues can happen right now without even testing. for instance my dd has heard seh is smart since she was 3. that's almost the first thing out of everyone's mouth. she is extremely verbal and articulate and her interests are usually philosophical or moralistic. today at 7 1/2 as she struggles through spelling, she realises 'smart' is not an umbrella term for being good at everything in academics. somethings come easy to her and some things dont.

also icequeen the key to the answer might lay in the kind of test they are planning on giving her. do you know which test they will use? if i were to get dd tested i would choose the comprehensive test. also see if your dd is ready for the test. even at 6 my dd wasnt. she found it boring and stopped in between. she just never got the reason behind the test. today at 7 she understands much better and i knew she would answer to the best of her ability as long as it was not too long and with the right psychologist.

[Bird Girl]

I'll throw in another point that hasn't come up yet; if you test a child at 5 or 6, they are apparently less likely to "ceiling out" of the test then if you test them closer to 9 or so. So a test now may be more of a non-issue for the child and yet may also provide more information than one given later on.