Bullying

[LukesMum]

My son (10) goes to a veyr small international school (we live in Germany)We are former homeschoolers , but cant hs here, and the school is very nice. There is one boy who has decided to taunt my son at every opportunity-verbally. My son is a very ver good student, athletic, has a sparkle in his eye and is well loved by the teachers. He s not a passive child, but doesnt want to hurt this kid and keeps hoping it will get better. Ive been dealing with this all year!!!! We've talked to the teacher, counselor, principal and the apporaches have been very soft. The boys mother is very aggressive herself and chewed me out for trying to discuss with her ( a "how can we help the boys" apporach) I am at my wits end. I have a lot of ppl. telling me pulling him out is the wrong thing to do because that teaches the wrong lesson. I feel we have done everything we can do, if the school wont take a strong approach...they arent taking care of my son!! The principal told me today she is pulling this group of boys into her office. We'llsee. I can imagine this will only make them more angry at ds. WIth the school being so small, there really no where for him to go.

My options-pull him and illlegally hs. He is active in sports and scouts and there is a hs group on base ( but we arent military-still we cpould participate) or send him to the Dodds school, which I hear is very good. Im not thrilled with the middle school scene there, but thats 2 years away. I feel like he's a lamb in a pack of wolves. ANy advise greatly apprecaited, I cant sleep and am so upset. Thanks

[Tjej]

I'm sorry, what a terrible position for your son to be in. I don't know what to tell you.

HUGS

Tjej

[mattemma04]

What a shame that the parent herself is so aggresive. That makes it difficult if a parent would not talk with their child to curb this.

Yea, I got the *it sends the wrong message thing* too when my ds was first bullied in K. I kept him in for 4 months while I talked my heart out at meetings and through letters.In the meantime my child was hit,kicked,punched,and spit on. What message did I send my child? It pains me to think about it even now. I finally pulled him against EVERYONES wishes. I am in the process of pulling him again if it is needed.

You have that one child.You try your best to make sure things are good for them in public situations.If you can not resolve negative situations then IMO the only real option is to pull a child out of that situation. I doubt my K child would have commited suicide like the older kids I have seen on the news,but you never know. The parents of those bullied to death kids probably think the *sending the wrong message* is pretty darn stupid now.

Sometimes removing yourself or a child from a negative situation is the ONLY option.When we see another bullied to death story on the news I talk to my kids about it,and remind them that I will get them away from bullies.Getting harder these days with net bullying,but I will do what I can.

The schools play around in these situations.The rule handbook is a joke.They rarely follow it.I would think a repeat offender will get detension or suspension,but it never happens for us.Then the school starts going blind and deaf..."We never saw a thing.Never heard him say a mean thing."....and so on.

Is an international online school an option? Something like Calvert for a few years?That would be my choice if I could not HS on my own,and the local schools stunk.Best wishes for you both!

My dh is home and I am pushing online schools,because dealing with an unresolivng issue is getting real old.We have better things to do than deal with mean people every day!

Hugs!

[Emmeline II]

As a bullied child I'll tell you that removing your child from the bullies does not teach them the "wrong" lesson. As we often see in the news, bullying can be fatal; at 10 years old I was contemplating suicide due to bullying. I wanted my parents to switch my school but they wouldn't even look into it. --I don't mean to blow your particular situation out of proportion, I'm just addressing the "wrong lesson" angle.

I question whether hsing is illegal for you if you are there as DoD employee/dependent and not a German citizen. German children have to be educated in their school system, but you are an American and may only be subject to our education laws. I was stationed in Germany and know that even military members have to obey most host country laws, but there were exceptions and modifications under the SOFA. Are you covered by the SOFA? Have you consulted with JAG?

[~Charlie's~Angel~]

Im confused. Whoever is telling you pulling him out is the wrong lesson, who are the referring to? Because if they are referring to it being the wrong lesson to the BULLY, WHO THE FRICK CARES? It is NOT your job to worry about whether or not this bully is being taught the right lessons. That is the job of the school and his mother, and you already mentioned how far hes going to get with her.

Now if they are referring to YOUR son being taught the wrong lesson, I don't understand the logistics behind a statement like that. Your son is old enough to understand that you are PROTECTING him from verbal abuse. He is being taught that he can rely on his mother to have his best interests at heart. It also sounds as though your son is bright and responsible and mature.

Im also curious what exactly the "wrong lesson" is in this kind of situation? I was also a bullied child, who wasnt defended until about the age of 13, but not by my mother.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by LukesMum

There is one boy who has decided to taunt my son at every opportunity-verbally. My son is a very ver good student, athletic, has a sparkle in his eye and is well loved by the teachers. He s not a passive child, but doesnt want to hurt this kid and keeps hoping it will get better.

I don't understand. This boy is saying annoying things to your son, and your son doesn't want to "hurt this kid." Do you mean physically hurt him?

How does your son respond? Does he get really angry?

I believe that pretty much all kids get teased at some point, but how they respond determines whether it turns into bullying or not. You response seems to be that your son is a target because the other child is jealous, but that might not be it at all. Your son might be responding in a way that the other child finds satisfying in some way.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

I believe that pretty much all kids get teased at some point, but how they respond determines whether it turns into bullying or not.

That's such an interesting perspective. I was bullied for characteristics that turned out to be part and parcel of my being gay. I'm wondering how I could have responded to being harassed that would have meant that I wasn't bullied.

And the situation changed when I aged out of that school. I still had the same characteristics, yet the bullying stopped.

So you believe the victim controls whether he is harassed?

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by chfriend

So you believe the victim controls whether he is harassed?

not totally, but how we respond to people plays a role in what happens next in ANY interchange.

I'm not blaming the victim, I'm saying the victim has *some* power and doing something different *might* cause a different outcome.

Because the only thing the victim can control is how they respond, it's worth taking a look at it and figuring out if something else might work better.

There are mean people through out our lives, and while parents and school staff have a role to stop bullying, we need to teach our kids how to handle as many situations for themselves as possible because people are going to sometimes say nasty things to them. It slows down a lot after middle school, but dealing with rudeness is a basic life skill.

here is a link to a good article:
http://wondertime.go.com/learning/ar...our-child.html

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

There are mean people through out our lives, and while parents and school staff have a role to stop bullying, we need to teach our kids how to handle as many situations for themselves as possible because people are going to sometimes say nasty things to them. It slows down a lot after middle school, but dealing with rudeness is a basic life skill.

Adults can quit their job. You cannot quit school in most states until you are 16. As a child you cannot control where you live. When you bully an adult it is called harassment, stalking, and assault.

Rude is bumping into someone and not saying excuse me. We aren't talking about "rude."

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

Adults can quit their job. You cannot quit school in most states until you are 16. As a child you cannot control where you live. When you bully an adult it is called harassment, stalking, and assault.

Rude is bumping into someone and not saying excuse me. We aren't talking about "rude."

I agree with this. I do think teasing is something that people have to deal with without overreacting by hurting someone or quitting to some extent, even as adults. Bullying goes beyond teasing though and bully's shouldn't be fostered, especially when they are that old. If the school won't do something effective about the bullying then I think it is a good idea to pull a child out of that kind of situation. Bullying is very emotionally damaging and does a lot of harm to a child's self image. I don't think victim blaming is the way to go ever. The bully isn't the one being hurt they are the malicious ones hurting someone else deliberately and in this case there is not much chance of the stopping since the mother has taught the child to be a bully.

I don't know how your laws are there, but I have heard of a teacher who tells bullies that she will call the police if they do something again and it is very effective. I found that my dd's school worked very quickly and effectively to redirect a boy who had been bullying my dd verbally and physically for over a year when I told them that I would press charges if the boy hurt her again.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

When you bully an adult it is called harassment, stalking, and assault.

This is another child saying things that bug the OPer's child and make him angry. It's isn't assault or stalking (though it might be harassment).

While I agree that adults -- teachers parents, etc -- have a role to play, I believe that we need to teach our kids to deal with things themselves as much as possible. That is our job as parents.

I'm not blaming the victim, I'm saying he has more power in how he reacts than he knows. I'm not saying it is his fault that this has happened, I'm saying that he has a choice in how to respond.

There's a really big difference between "it's your fault that this happened" and "you have a choice in what happens next."

Did you read the link I posted? What do you think of the article?

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

This is another child saying things that bug the OPer's child and make him angry.

I read that.

It's isn't assault

Yet.

or stalking (though it might be harassment).

Stalking can be defined as the willful and repeated following, watching, and / or harassing of another person.

While I agree that adults -- teachers parents, etc -- have a role to play, I believe that we need to teach our kids to deal with things themselves as much as possible. That is our job as parents.

Are you sure you aren't my school principle? It took me MONTHS of begging to get my locker moved from next to one of my bullys in Jr. High and High School.

I'm not blaming the victim, I'm saying he has more power in how he reacts than he knows. I'm not saying it is his fault that this has happened, I'm saying that he has a choice in how to respond.

There's a really big difference between "it's your fault that this happened" and "you have a choice in what happens next."

Did you read the link I posted? What do you think of the article?

Perhaps bullies need to read it because mine apparently didn't get the message.

This was the general attitude I received from my school.

The worst of mine were "messed-up" people. One's older brother was implicated in the death of another student by suffocating him with pebbles down his throat (and later has his own 'legal' trouble), one became a drug dealer, and I'm not sure what happened to this third guy after he killed a dog.

The others weren't as threatening, but being "non-responsive" did not help much.

Our job as parent is to protect our children, not to leave them to be victimized when "bullyproofing" doesn't work.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

Our job as parent is to protect our children, not to leave them to be victimized when "bullyproofing" doesn't work.

I totally agree. But I think that we need to START with bullyproofing rather than starting with labeling our child a helpless victim.

In all the things the OP talked about, she didn't mention how her son responds or what she's taught him about responding.

From her signature, it sounds like he is an only child. It sounds like this is his first time in school. It would make sense that he would need some new skills.

<< My son is a very ver good student, athletic, has a sparkle in his eye and is well loved by the teachers. >>

That's not what makes a child a victim of bullying. It's usually the outcast, the child with special needs, the kid who wants friends but has no friendship skills who becomes a target. That's because bright, likeable kids can more easily be "bullyproofed" that kids who have a lot of extra challanges.

[Tigerle]

Originally Posted by LukesMum

My son (10) goes to a veyr small international school (we live in Germany)We are former homeschoolers , but cant hs here, and the school is very nice. There is one boy who has decided to taunt my son at every opportunity-verbally. My son is a very ver good student, athletic, has a sparkle in his eye and is well loved by the teachers. He s not a passive child, but doesnt want to hurt this kid and keeps hoping it will get better. Ive been dealing with this all year!!!! We've talked to the teacher, counselor, principal and the apporaches have been very soft. The boys mother is very aggressive herself and chewed me out for trying to discuss with her ( a "how can we help the boys" apporach) I am at my wits end. I have a lot of ppl. telling me pulling him out is the wrong thing to do because that teaches the wrong lesson. I feel we have done everything we can do, if the school wont take a strong approach...they arent taking care of my son!! The principal told me today she is pulling this group of boys into her office. We'llsee. I can imagine this will only make them more angry at ds. WIth the school being so small, there really no where for him to go.

My options-pull him and illlegally hs. He is active in sports and scouts and there is a hs group on base ( but we arent military-still we cpould participate) or send him to the Dodds school, which I hear is very good. Im not thrilled with the middle school scene there, but thats 2 years away. I feel like he's a lamb in a pack of wolves. ANy advise greatly apprecaited, I cant sleep and am so upset. Thanks

Have you let the school know that you are considering pulling him and sending him to the Dodds school? International schools in Germany tend to be oversubscribed by German families and therefore rather eager to retain native English speakers in order to raise language standards in the classroom, particularly bright children (with fully fee-paying parents...). They also have a lot of turnover - is this boy from a German or from an expatriate family and what are the chances they family might just up and leave soon because the one of the parents moves on to another job?

I do not agree with anyone who tries to reframe this as a "kids need to get learn to get along" situation because there seems to be a very aggressive mother in the picture - in this case, your child being bright and successful may be just the thing to make the*mother* push the child to be aggressive. (Full disclosure; I have been the victim of exactly this type of bullying situation - once the bullying girls in question were older and more independent from their mothers we ended up being friends!)

How about enlisting *other* parents' help? If your son has friends, they might gang up and tell the other child to shut up and leave your son alone - he may try to hide his bullying from the teachers (or at least give them the opportunity to pretend they never notice), but certainly cannot hide it at all times from the other kids.

Just don't let them know you are considering to illegally homeschool - not being military, I do not think that you will qualify for an exception to the compulsory schooling requirement, but the authorities would have to find out about it before they could do anything about it, and the less opprotunity for anyone to rat you out the better.

How long will you be staying in Germany?

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Tigerle

Just don't let them know you are considering to illegally homeschool - not being military, I do not think that you will qualify for an exception to the compulsory schooling requirement, but the authorities would have to find out about it before they could do anything about it, and the less opprotunity for anyone to rat you out the better.

She's not a member, but she is not a German citizen either--she is an American in Germany for the sole reason of working on a military base. I'm really not certain that she is subject to the educational requirements of a German child.

[Tigerle]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

She's not a member, but she is not a German citizen either--she is an American in Germany for the sole reason of working on a military base. I'm really not certain that she is subject to the educational requirements of a German child.

Nor am I to be honest - particularly as the OP hasn't stated her exact status and her state of residence, and the statutory requirements differ somewhat from state to state. However, as far as I am aware, compulsory brick-and-mortar-schooling applies to every child domiciled in Germany (ie legally resident for at least 6 months out of the year ) regardless of nationality, with the exclusive exception of children of persons of diplomatic or NATO military status and, of course, health reasons - if your child is physically unable to get themselves to school, they will send a teacher to your home or the hospital. Otherwise, that's it - no exceptions.
I just don't imagine it is helpful when trying to spur the school into resolving the issue to announce a course of action that the school knows may get you into trouble! Nor is it advisable to apply to the authorities for an exception that they are legally unable to grant - it might make them feel duty bound to follow up...better be safe than sorry. And if you do get in trouble after all, you can still say you thought the exception must apply to you, thus possibly avoiding a fine...

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Tigerle

Nor am I to be honest - particularly as the OP hasn't stated her exact status and her state of residence, and the statutory requirements differ somewhat from state to state. However, as far as I am aware, compulsory brick-and-mortar-schooling applies to every child domiciled in Germany (ie legally resident for at least 6 months out of the year ) regardless of nationality, with the exclusive exception of children of persons of diplomatic or NATO military status and, of course, health reasons - if your child is physically unable to get themselves to school, they will send a teacher to your home or the hospital. Otherwise, that's it - no exceptions.

Her children are entitled to attend DODDs so that seems to indicate that she has military status (even if not a member). At the least she can send him to school on base; though perhaps she could join the homeschooling group and the base would verify that the child is being educated through the base.

[ribbons_undone]

Social inclusion

This is the expert on bullying and social inclusion at ours (and many) Amer. Waldorf schools. I believe our school has signed on, or committed in some way, to work with his plan.

Perhaps some of his ideas would help:
http://www.thechildtoday.com/SocialInclusion/

[pigpokey]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

There are mean people through out our lives, and while parents and school staff have a role to stop bullying, we need to teach our kids how to handle as many situations for themselves as possible because people are going to sometimes say nasty things to them. It slows down a lot after middle school, but dealing with rudeness is a basic life skill.

here is a link to a good article:
http://wondertime.go.com/learning/ar...our-child.html

I like the article. I agree that we can encourage our kids to respond in a way that is both socially appropriate and does not reward the bully. However, I think arguments that kids need to learn to handle these things as a life skill do not acknowledge the very important differences between the options adults have to handle bullying and the relative lack of options kids have. IMO learning to navigate the elementary / middle school schoolyard prepares them mainly for the prison yard, not for college / adulthood.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by pigpokey

I like the article. I agree that we can encourage our kids to respond in a way that is both socially appropriate and does not reward the bully. However, I think arguments that kids need to learn to handle these things as a life skill do not acknowledge the very important differences between the options adults have to handle bullying and the relative lack of options kids have.