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Strict Abortion Measures Enacted in Oklahoma - Page 3

post #41 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
Drs should always be required to give patients full disclosure as to their condition and health status. So, I do have big problems with the second law shielding Drs that withhold info. I don't have problems with the first one though. I see the first law as upholding full disclosure.

And I won't say anymore so that I stay within the UA.
I agree with this!

My issue with the first measure is that I don't think it's designed to give all information, I think it's to emotionally bully women who want abortions.

I find that these two measures conflict with each other. So, you have to listen to a detailed description...unless the doctor doesn't want to pass information on to you.
post #42 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekgolightly View Post
Let me know if I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that it would be ok to force someone against their will to hear information they have decided they don't want or need.
I've been thinking a lot about this, and I do think that it is okay. I think there is some information that a person should know before any procedure whether they want to know it or not. I don't think it is coercive; it is giving all the medical facts to the woman so that she can make her decision fully informed. In the case of abortion, this also means the woman must make a moral decision, so she must be fully aware of the moral decision she's making. I don't think it is fair to the woman to have a very important aspect of her (her conscience) ignored when giving the information to decide to have an abortion or not.

Please, don't get me wrong here. I am and have always been in favor of keeping abortion legal. I've been reluctant to post this because it is personal, but I have had a very early elective abortion myself, so I am well aware of what I'm talking about. I just think it does a disservice to women to not give her all the information she needs to make sure she is not doing something against her conscience that she will later regret.
post #43 of 56
Thread Starter 
I do not think it's ok to force someone to "learn" about the measurements of a fetus that is about to be destroyed. I think it's highly immoral, unethical and dictatorial.
post #44 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah w View Post
i agree with this!

My issue with the first measure is that i don't think it's designed to give all information, i think it's to emotionally bully women who want abortions.

I find that these two measures conflict with each other. So, you have to listen to a detailed description...unless the doctor doesn't want to pass information on to you.
ita
post #45 of 56
I respectfully disagree, Purple Sage. I think if a patient has indicated that he or she doesn't want to know the intimate details of a surgery or procedure, then medical staff should be able to non-disclose beyond basic information. to me, limiting information on request about the details shows respect for the patient's needs. I do consider abortion to be a medical procedure, so that may affect my pov of course. I just think there is a big difference between saying to a client 'Yep, there's the uterus, there is the embryo-fetus, & i estimate that the pregnancy is around X weeks in duration' as opposed to 'look at the little arms, you can almost see the fingers forming & wow, look at that heartbeat!'. The first statement is clinical, the second statement is emotional. In my opinion, patients deserve clear clinical information. The emotional stuff they are perfectly capable of working out according to their own personal needs when it comes to elective procedures. They don't need someone to tell them what they should feel or see.

I hope that doesn't sound harsh, I don't mean it to be. And I am somewhat confused by the distinctions between the two OK laws. I guess I just don't like to see any patient coerced, emotionally or otherwise, into a decision that they don't agree with.

Informed consent is very tricky territory.

With respect to all.....
post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiemum View Post
I respectfully disagree, Purple Sage. I think if a patient has indicated that he or she doesn't want to know the intimate details of a surgery or procedure, then medical staff should be able to non-disclose beyond basic information. to me, limiting information on request about the details shows respect for the patient's needs. I do consider abortion to be a medical procedure, so that may affect my pov of course. I just think there is a big difference between saying to a client 'Yep, there's the uterus, there is the embryo-fetus, & i estimate that the pregnancy is around X weeks in duration' as opposed to 'look at the little arms, you can almost see the fingers forming & wow, look at that heartbeat!'. The first statement is clinical, the second statement is emotional. In my opinion, patients deserve clear clinical information. The emotional stuff they are perfectly capable of working out according to their own personal needs when it comes to elective procedures. They don't need someone to tell them what they should feel or see.

I hope that doesn't sound harsh, I don't mean it to be. And I am somewhat confused by the distinctions between the two OK laws. I guess I just don't like to see any patient coerced, emotionally or otherwise, into a decision that they don't agree with.

Informed consent is very tricky territory.

With respect to all.....
I understand where you're coming from, but I also respectfully disagree. The part I bolded simply would not happen. The description would be worded as unemotionally and medically sterile as possible at any abortion clinic. I think that going to this extreme is making a false emotional claim about this law - it is unrealistic and fear-mongering.
post #47 of 56
I don't know, purple sage, I haven't read the wording of the law to be honest. I just can't see where there would be safeguards against moral opinion being used as medical opinion in this situation. especially considering abortion history in the US, and in this particular case, Oklahoma.

I don't want to fear-monger, but the history of legal abortion in the US is a bit... of a concern (searching for a diplomatic word).
post #48 of 56
I think it's important to remember that the medical description and u/s would be taking place at the place where the abortion is to be performed, not at a place where people are actively trying to keep women from getting abortions. I don't know about Oklahoma, but I've been to an abortion clinic in Texas (not your most liberal state!) and the people working there were all 100% pro-choice. The safeguards for employees not injecting their moral stance into the discussion would be provided by the medical establishment performing the abortion. I have no doubt that the rules would be very clear and very strict that employees not say anything that is not of the utmost medically sterile jargon and only as much as the law requires. I would imagine the wording to be such as "upper extremities measure 2mm, lower extremities measure...."
post #49 of 56
fair enough. But what if a woman goes to a pregnancy clinic or a doctor's surgery, somewhat uncertain about her decision. If abortion service providers are already providing clinical information, why is there the need to codify it in law? I just don't see the restriction to keep medical-patient dialogue to a clinical level in the current proposal.

Again, I haven't read the current legislation in OK. But I can just see so many loopholes where personal can cross the professional line here.

I grew up in the US & lived there until I was 26, if that gives me any currency in this discussion. So yeah, I do know that Texas is not the most liberal state, & I hear where you are coming from. Just wondering why these disclosure laws are being enacted....
post #50 of 56
I was going to respond with the debate about informed consent and etc. but
I tried to look up the law in OK - still with no success, and instead found an article by ABC news which discusses some of the other laws in OK regarding abortions mainly:

From the article:
Quote:
Under Oklahoma law, they must be read a typewritten script over the phone 24 hours prior to the procedure, one that describes complications and risks and the gestational age
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/okla-ab...0507849&page=1

So getting back to this law - it might be very repetative of what OK has already in place. Apparently they also have women filled out an extensive & very personnal questionnaire prior the procedure. Finally the legislation attempted to pass a law to post information regarding women who have undergone abortions on a public website - luckily this got struck down.

I am in a bit of shock (again can't confirm per law) but the article references the US and description must occur within 1 hour prior to undergoing to procedure. I'm sorry but with respect to persons, and their autonomy to make a decision as considered in realm of bioethics this law does not uphold any of that. In my mind this is where the state and legislative bodies are choosing to ignore the fact this is a legal medical procedure and making it extensively difficult for someone to choose.
post #51 of 56
On a completely unrelated note - I want say thank you to everyone as this topic however timely has cemented in my mind what I will be writing on for my final paper for my law & bioethics class for my master's program
post #52 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiemum View Post
fair enough. But what if a woman goes to a pregnancy clinic or a doctor's surgery, somewhat uncertain about her decision. If abortion service providers are already providing clinical information, why is there the need to codify it in law? I just don't see the restriction to keep medical-patient dialogue to a clinical level in the current proposal.

Again, I haven't read the current legislation in OK. But I can just see so many loopholes where personal can cross the professional line here.

I grew up in the US & lived there until I was 26, if that gives me any currency in this discussion. So yeah, I do know that Texas is not the most liberal state, & I hear where you are coming from. Just wondering why these disclosure laws are being enacted....
I think this is entirely the point - if a woman goes into the clinic somewhat uncertain and hearing a clinical description and seeing an u/s causes her to decide it is against her conscience to undergo the procedure, then it was most definitely in her best interest to not have the abortion. In my opinion, a woman's conscience is as much a part of her as her uterus.

I also have full confidence that abortion providers will make certain that the description is as clinical and unemotional as possible.
post #53 of 56
I wonder why they couldn't just as the patient if she wants to hear a detailed description and then respect her decision? She is an adult (or in the case of a teenager, able to give consent)--isn't that just basic respect for other people? Seems extremely paternalistic particularly when this isn't information that impacts the medical risk of the procedure (isn't that really the purpose of informed consent?).

ETA: On the second part of the law, I wonder if doctors would decide to lie at first then disclose later in the pregnancy when it's too late to abort? Maybe they would feel that covers them on the issues of giving parents time to prepare? I'm utterly disgusted either way.
post #54 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Sage View Post
In the case of abortion, this also means the woman must make a moral decision, so she must be fully aware of the moral decision she's making. I don't think it is fair to the woman to have a very important aspect of her (her conscience) ignored when giving the information to decide to have an abortion or not.
What if the woman does not view abortion as a moral decision? Does she still need to be informed in the manner prescribed, then?
post #55 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiredX2 View Post
What if the woman does not view abortion as a moral decision? Does she still need to be informed in the manner prescribed, then?
I don't mean this to sound flip, but why would she have a problem with hearing a clinical description and viewing an u/s if the issue is not a moral one to her? It would be just one more step in the process of consent and prep for the procedure, just like any of the others.
post #56 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Sage View Post
I don't mean this to sound flip, but why would she have a problem with hearing a clinical description and viewing an u/s if the issue is not a moral one to her? It would be just one more step in the process of consent and prep for the procedure, just like any of the others.
For me - this additional review and description is on top of the already discussed informed consent process, along with a 24 hour prior telephone call describing risks and the gestational age of the fetus. Plus double checks by the staff & doctors to ensure she's still in agreement with her decision.

I'm struggling with this graphic, though it may be clinical description being required for 1 type of medical procedure, but then the bar is lowered for others.
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