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animal dissection in HS - Page 3

post #41 of 56
I think if your DD went more for a botany degree it would work - where I went to school anyway. The introductory biology courses did/do have dissections, but I can imagine there might be ways to work with specific teachers to meet those requirements... but I think you'd have to talk to the biology department before starting school there to see if it would be possible.

We used live tissue in our histology class, so that might well have dissection too.

The thing is, you don't just start out dissecting a manatee. There are a lot of steps in the understanding of biological systems that the dissections are used for. You would get a LOT more out of dissecting a manatee if you have more basic familiarity first.

Where I went to school an internship like you are talking about would be an elective within the major, but would not fulfill the core requirements for a biology major - and the dissections I spoke of were from my core classes for the most part.

Tjej
post #42 of 56
I did a fetal pig in hs - it was an optional, advanced class, and the dissection requirement was well-publicized at the time of registration. If you were unwilling to do the dissection, you didn't take the class.

I dissected a rat in college. Both experiences were very informative. I think using a computer model is an appropriate alternative for a student who will not be pursuing a career in the field, but there is no viable substitute for dissection for students who are planning to pursue a degree in the life sciences and pursue animal studies. If you can't dissect, you can't do necropsy or surgery. Learning the basic skills on a small dead animal is really the best approach.

The pigs were from the slaughterhouse. The rats were exterminated pests. I would have an issue with having students kill a rat just to keep the lab's rat population "useful." There are good reasons to have a specifically bred, genetically controlled rat population for study, but "so students can cut them up" is not among them. That seems like a waste of a carefully bred lab rat.
post #43 of 56
This is a really interesting thread. For some background, I have a MS in Biology, with an emphasis on animal physiology. I've taught anatomy and physiology labs for college students as well as general bio. with a dissection component and elective bio labs with both animal dissection and surgery. I've done animal research varying from simple behavioral observation to necropsies.
As far as classes I have taken involving dissection: in middle and high school we dissected worms, crayfish and frogs, all of which were already killed and prepped (w/the pink & blue plastic in their veins/arteries). In college, all of the classes I took involving dissection were electives. I think there were only 4 classes that involved dissection: Zoology, Anatomy & Phys. 1 & 2 and an advanced animal phys. class. The A & P class was mostly geared for pre-nursing students and over the course of the 2 sem. class, students dissected 1 cat per group of 4 students (started in A&P 1, cats were saved and re-used for other body systems in A&P2, so no waste). The advanced animal phys. class used mostly live animals (ones that were being culled from labs (i.e. retired rat breeders, frogs collected from areas where they were doing environmental damage) and we worked as a whole class usually to use as few animals as possible. They were all humanely euthanized by the professor who was trained and knew how to minimize pain and suffering (none, really).

So, all that aside, when I first saw the title of this thread, considering my background, my first thought was that students should definitely be exposed to dissection in HS. I think it's an incredibly valid learning tool and I don't think any video or computer simulation can truly replicate that. I quickly realized though, that not all HS students are interested in Biology, even though they may be required to take the course. I fully respect that other people have different views on dissection, so I think if a student feels strongly against it, they should be given an alternative. Again, this should only apply to people who are truly opposed to dissection, not just kids who think it's icky or smelly or don't want to get their hands dirty.
However, if the class, even in HS, is an elective and not a requirement, then I think there shouldn't be an opt-out. As I said above, seeing how all the body parts are connected and what the organs really look like can't really be replicated on a computer screen or by even the most expensive models (IMHO). I think it's something that every aspiring biologist should be exposed to. At the same time I feel very strongly that every class involving dissection should also cover the rules and regulations surrounding animal research (IACUC, training required, proper respect for the animals being used, etc.). All of the professors I've worked with have taken the time to do this and it clears up a lot of misconceptions and helps students learn that this isn't something to be taken lightly.

ChristaN: As for your daughter, I think it would be very unlikely that she could get a Biology degree focusing on mammalogy without doing any dissections. As you said, they don't euthanize endangered species just for learning (thank heavens!), but you do need to learn to do necropsies on some type of animal. In all the departments I've been in, an internship would just be considered an elective (actually probably a requirement), but it wouldn't replace coursework involving dissection. I would encourage her to talk to people in positions like she'd like to one day have and ask them for advice. When she's visiting colleges, I'd stop by the Bio. department and talk to some profs about it as well. I've always found professors to be very willing to discuss concerns like these sensitively and seriously. You'll find that none of us inherently like euthanizing animals, but we find that it's an important tool for the work we do. If she has any questions for a practicing wildlife biologist, I'd be more than happy to try to answer them (I study birds, but a lot of my coursework was originally geared towards mammals).

sorry for the book!
post #44 of 56
ChristaN - I was a marine biologist until my second child was born and I just wanted to agree with others that I can't think of a way to get through even undergrad without dissections. They are a huge part of Invertebrate Zoology and Icthyology classes. Can't think of any Marine Biology program in which those classes would be optional.
post #45 of 56
Sorry to have sidetracked this discussion with my dd's issues. She is nearly vegan and has been her entire life. She truly would view killing an animal for educational purposes, no matter how valid the purpose, as equivalent to killing a human for educational purposes for med students to study.

That said, she is not opposed to dissection and handling dead animals, just to killing them for the purpose of her doing so. She'd be totally fine with observing necropsies, learning to do them, and probably even taking human anatomy/pre-med classes that involved human dissection b/c none of these entails killing the subject in order to dissect him/her. She, of course, does not expect anyone to turn her loose on a dead manatee to perform a necropsy so she can learn to do so. I guess that she is just hoping that she would be able to learn about anatomy through the means I mentioned above in this paragraph.

Perhaps that isn't possible and I have encouraged her to start discussing the options with the schools she is interested in attending b/c she does already have a list of the ones she's currently interested in. She has met with and discussed the job of a marine mammologist with a PhD who worked in manatee research for most of his career and the work itself sounds like something she would enjoy. The bigger issue is getting through the training/education in a way that does not compromise her ideals. She has been interested in sirenians and marine bio since she was three, so it doesn't seem to be a passing phase.
post #46 of 56
Man, I love that your DD has had a heart for this since she was 3. I look at my kids and wish a love of biology on them... so far they don't hate it or anything, but it isn't what lights their fires.

Where there is a will, there is a way. It could be possible to get a degree in something related sideways to what she wants, and at the masters PhD level it could be easier to skip into what she wants. At least that is the easiest way I think one could weasel a way in without many dissections.

Tjej
post #47 of 56
Maybe oceanography would work as an undergrad degree although it isn't as versatile as biology. UW Seattle does have an oceanography undergrad degree and that is one of the schools dd is interested in.
post #48 of 56
I am a middle school science teacher and this is what I tell my students: At the middle school level, I don't believe in dissection as a learning tool. I feel we learn a lot more from animals when they are alive than when they are dead.

In high school, I am not comfortable with a whole required intro bio class doing dissections. I can see the value of it in a more advanced elective course for students planning on pursuing biology or medicine in college, but I really don't see the point for anyone else.
post #49 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecoteat View Post
I am a middle school science teacher and this is what I tell my students: At the middle school level, I don't believe in dissection as a learning tool. I feel we learn a lot more from animals when they are alive than when they are dead.
how so? To me it seems like we learn different things.

It is very popular to say that kids learn best by doing and there's no substitute for experience, and we value kids having experiences in fields they will never go into. So why should only *serious* students ever see what the inside of a body really looks like? Isn't it possible that a student would become more interested in biology by having an experience than reading a book?

Having done several myself (most at university level for a major I decided wasn't the right one for me), I see them as having very solid value. While I would support a student wanting to opt out of one for a required class, I still see value in them for *most* high school students.

<< I can see the value of it in a more advanced elective course for students planning on pursuing biology or medicine in college, but I really don't see the point for anyone else. >>

Wouldn't that mean that the kids whose parents have money and education would have the opportunity for hands on learning, and the kids who have fewer resources at home wouldn't?

Seeing the real thing isn't the same as seeing it on a compter screen or in a book. That's why the exhibit with the plasticized humans bodies is so striking. Because it's REAL. Don't we want students to have real experiences?

To me, the attitude that there's no point of in them seems very anti-intellectual. They ARE educational, so to say that only certain students should have access seems classist.

When my kids were younger we read all about owls, we saw owls in a nature center, etc. And I ordered some owl pellets and we dissected them. It's different to have the real thing in your hand.
post #50 of 56
"and there are lots of studies linking HS dissection to violent aggressive behavior later in life"

This is a very strong statement. And I find it VERY difficult to believe. Can you back this up?
post #51 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecoteat View Post
I am a middle school science teacher and this is what I tell my students: At the middle school level, I don't believe in dissection as a learning tool. I feel we learn a lot more from animals when they are alive than when they are dead.

In high school, I am not comfortable with a whole required intro bio class doing dissections. I can see the value of it in a more advanced elective course for students planning on pursuing biology or medicine in college, but I really don't see the point for anyone else.
I would agree with this on a MS (for the most part*) level. It really isn't a necessary part of the MS curriculum. * Now that you mention it, though, my daughter did dissect worms and frogs in her advanced-track science class in 8th grade. She found it fascinating, and it was a driving force in her choosing the HS she did.

In HS, however... I do think it's important. While we may not have the exact same anatomy or physiology as the animals used for dissection, there is enough of an commonality to provide important educational information.There is a correlation to the human body. You can more easily picture how tendons, muscles and ligaments work together, for example, when the skin has been pulled back and one can flex the joints. While yes, that can be shown via animation on a computer, it is not the same as being able to physically flex the body parts and feel the tension in the various connective tissues.

Once one hits college, there's a pretty good idea of what areas one wants to go into. Biology is not a *requirement* - the Science requirements can be fulfilled in a variety of ways and a variety of scientific disciplines. Yes, sometimes (often?) a Bio Lab will help a student decide that medical fields are not for them. And that's all good.
post #52 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dancingmama View Post
"and there are lots of studies linking HS dissection to violent aggressive behavior later in life"

This is a very strong statement. And I find it VERY difficult to believe. Can you back this up?
i already clarified this
post #53 of 56
We did cats in highschool which where put down at shelters due to space/ adoptibility issues so sadly, would have been put down regardless. Vegetarians and students otherwise opposed to dissection were were given the option to study on models and diagrams.

I think that was a good policy.
post #54 of 56
My 7th grader found out that they will be dissecting fetal pigs in a few weeks. The teacher explained where the pigs came from and why they are available. He said that any student who wishes to be opted out must come and discuss it with him and explain why. Kids can opt out if they present their case well.

Students who think it will be gross and just don't want to do it will need to start the process, but if they decide they don't want to continue, they will be allowed to leave the room and not forced to continue. He said that in years past, it is often the students who think it sounds "cool" who end up having the biggest problems with it, and the kids who think it sounds a little distrubing who often seem to get the most out of it. He asked them to try not to form too many opinions on an experience they've never had before because there's really no way to know what they will think of it until they do it.

He also told them about other dissections he did while getting his education.

This is a wrap up project on a unit on biology.
post #55 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by blessedwithboys View Post
i already clarified this
Ah, I found it. OK. But you DO see the enormous difference between kids being violent and cruel to animals because they are drawn to do so (clearly have psychological issues), and kids who dissect animals in science class -- which you find cruel, but they may not, and it's certainly not going to make anyone into a psychopath? There is a huge cause-and-effect issue that you completely side-stepped with your assertation that there are large numbers of studies "proving" that dissection of animals in HS causes violence. I know that this was not your main point, but as a scientist myself, I get really upset when I see these sorts of non-science and very inaccurate and misleading statements quoted as facts.

Sorry to side-swipe, but I feel really strongly about this.

As to the dissection, I think it should be up to the high-schooler. Simple as that.
post #56 of 56
We dissected fetal pigs in high school and I found it to be a very bad experience. It was an optional class, however, it is a pre-requisite for many University programs (even those without a specific focus on science or biology) so it was not optional if you wanted to get into one of those programs. For example, I studied Child Development at college and was required to have a senior Biology course. About 90% of the students in the school took the course for that reason. The students in my class were really what made it so bad. Most were very immature and acted completely inappropriately (not all high school students would act this way of course). Our teacher refused to allow us to opt out, so some of us watched while our partners did the work and took a bigger chunk of the written report. From my experiences, I do not agree with dissections in high school.

In my University Anatomy class we studied the muscle groups in cats. The cats were from shelters and were not specifically put down for us, and the same cats were used all semester by several classes. I was not comfortable with it, but to get the credit we had to do it. Not everyone taking the course was going to be using this knowledge in their careers, but it was required for several degrees. There was no option to opt out.

We had a computer program that came with our text book to use for studying, and I can honestly say that the computer program is not the same. The computer program shows an animal in perfect condition with highly visible parts. Most animals that are dissected do not look that way. It is much harder to identify the correct part and just a completely different experience overall. This wont necessarily matter for everyone though.
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