Excluded little girl at school. What can I do?

[carfreemama]

There is a little girl in dd's primary class at school. Her mom has some challenges and most often calls and asks one of the other parents to walk her dd home after school. We pick her up on our way every morning.

The other kids do not seem to like her. She is very needy and cries easily when they do include her in their play. There are various reports from the kids that she is "sometimes mean, sometimes nice." From what I've observed, she's a fundamentally very sweet little girl; just sad and yes, needy. She's got the kind of behaviour that I can see other kids avoiding her for, but it's not always her fault. It seems like the seeds of real exclusion are being sown and I feel like I just can't let that happen to this child. She's only 5!

Today was a typical, but painful example. Dd was approaching the school walkway and one of her good friends spotted her. She ran to my daughter, arms out for a big hug. The girl we walk to school was with us and saw this and held her arms out for a hug, too. Dd's friend ignored her and started talking to my dd. The girl came to me and told me she wanted a hug, too (not from me). I told her to go and ask, but warned her the othe girl might say no. She did say no. Little girl said, but you hugged (my dd). Little girl, thinking fast, said "that was an accident."

What would you do? If my daughter had been the one to say that, I would talk to her about just telling the truth and about being kind, while at the same time validating her right to not give hugs. It's her body!

These kinds of incidents happen all the time. The little girl never goes to bday parties; even though for dd's, I made sure to tell the mom I could pick her up and drop her off. I never got a response. I understand she might have felt she couldn't afford a gift, although I did say a gift wasn't necessary (but I know she might still feel like it was).

Anyway, the things the kids are doing don't seem to be bullying, exactly; more emotional distancing that I worry could lead to bullying. I would like to include this little girl more in the group somehow, but the kids really don't want her with them. Is there anything I can do? My heart aches for this kid and I don't think I can MMOB on this.

[amma_mama]

It is very warm and loving of you to look after this little girl - I know that it can be heartbreaking to watch this kind of stuff happening to a child. I don't think though that there is an awful lot that you can do. Perhaps try some smaller playgroups at your house so that other girls can get to know her better, with some organized activities and games that encourage interaction and teamwork. I would try that a few times, perhaps, but not over-push it- you can't force friendships and you don't want to alienate your own DD in the process. Failing that, just keep your own home open to her if your own DD becomes friends with her.

[carfreemama]

Thanks, amma mama. I've spoken to a couple of the parents my dd plays with a lot and they've noticed the same thing. We're going to organize a small group date with someone who has their own bouncy castle (!)

Do I speak with dd about things like including everybody in the group? I've been trying to find words to describe how it feels to be left out; but unfortunately, this little girl really seems to annoy the other kids. How to I explain inclusiveness to dd, while respecting her right to like/not like who she chooses? I think this girl just needs some practice and some more attention. Dd's preschool teachers used to comment on how dd would reach out to kids who were new or lonely, so I thought that might happen here. But this girl just gets on her nerves. I worry about this group mentality that gets going where one person gets excluded and then even if the behaviour changes, you don't stand a chance because you have the reputation as the "outsider."

[Geofizz]

Originally Posted by carfreemama

Anyway, the things the kids are doing don't seem to be bullying, exactly; more emotional distancing that I worry could lead to bullying. I would like to include this little girl more in the group somehow, but the kids really don't want her with them.

I would call this a form of relational bullying.

If she plays alright one on one with kids than that's a step, but learning to play and include others in a group is a very difficult development for kids, and needs continual support through the primary grades. In a lot of ways, kids aren't always ready and able to include a third, particularly when the third isn't as favored as the second. It's even harder when the child is already struggling socially.

What happens at school? Is play supported at recess? Multiple kids invited to play a game together by an adult?

I'd leave your perceptions of the family's financial state out of this. It doesn't seem to have any part of it.

[sunshinejanie]

Please don't allow your dd to exclude this little girl. Not every child is given the tools to know how to make friends and treat others.

[GoBecGo]

It's hard.

There were kids like that in my classes at school. The problem seemed to be that they were very sensitive, so if they were over-looked they felt upset and seemed, to other kids, to be "over reacting" to the perceived slight (like telling an adult they wanted a hug from a child who was hugging a good friend that wasn't them - it just isn't appropriate to ask an adult to make another child hug them for the sake of their feelings). The sensitive child then begins to feel there is something wrong with them, and looks out for any potential slights against them even more, and other kids sense this and begin to think that if the kid themself thinks there's something wrong with them there MUST actually be something wrong them and the cycle continues and deepens until there is far more deliberate bullying taking place.

If anything someone needs to help this child to be less sensitive and self-conscious, more "fun" and open and also work on getting her a friend or two to be close to. Unfortunately saying things like "but *I* want a hug too!" doesn't make one seem very huggable. But it needs to be all of those things, i've was friends with such children, and they can be incredibly intense best friends of the type who don't want you to even talk to anyone else, to "prove" you're really THEIR best friend, which ultimately made them very difficult to stay friends with (i can remember being 9 and being interrogated as to whether or not i'd spoken to anyone else at my weekly riding lesson, which my "best friend" didn't even attend!).

I think you're wonderful for noticing and trying to help.

[carfreemama]

Thanks for the replies. Geofizz, thanks for putting a name to this. I think that's what I'm getting at. As far as her financial situation, I only mentioned that in the context of the birthday party and an explanation of why she possibly doesn't attend them even when the whole class is invited. And again, I only mention that because it seems like those occasions would be another opportunity for her to get to mesh with the group more. When I say the mom has some challenges, I don't really mean finances; just that there's a lot going on at home according to the little girl's mom.

Recess doesn't seem supported at all. Would it be appropriate to talk to the teacher about how things are at school and what I've noticed? Ask for her suggestions? I really think the "relational bullying" thing is exactly right. I don't think it's intentional, though; it seems to be happening on an almost unconscious level (but not always). I really think some general encouragement and some age-appropriate "sensitivity training" of the kids in the class would go a long way. I just don't want to be overbearing with dd. I definitely could be accused of that. I just think some kind of early intervention NOW, before this gets entrenched, could really possibly turn this around. It's so bleeping subtle and insidious and I don't think it's going to get better on its own.

[Geofizz]

It's not sensitivity training that the kids need, per se, but specific skills on (1) noticing that a kid is left out and (2) how to include them.

Getting the teacher involved is absolutely necessary. The playground is a really difficult place to learn to interact. 1-on-1 play dates are a completely different ball of wax, and it pretty only reinforces the fact that when you play, it's with just one other kid.

I've started having play dates with two other kids at once. We start off setting out rules for play. It's a particular girl's job to make sure all three are included at all times. It seems awfully structured, but it is helping. We also keep these play dates to <90 minutes. My kid is 7, by the way, with classmates ranging in age from 7 to 9.

I have taken to figuring out which classroom teacher is on playground duty and specifically "asking" (=informing) them to look out for kids getting left out and specifically suggesting that they get a jump rope game going for those kids at loose ends. I have "discussed" (=informed) DD's teacher that tight buddy-buddy relationships are a sign that those two girls also need social help in including others.

I'm the parent of that awkward, sensitive kid, not the parent of the reasonably social kid who doesn't seem to have struggles, but still is inclined to leave another kid out. I am starting to get a more global view of how kids (particularly girls) interact, and I'm becoming convinced that while on the surface a lot of kids do ok socially in school, there are still a lot of skills that are undeveloped, which lead to the "mean girl" type behavior that rears its head a bit later.

[One_Girl]

I would talk to the teacher and ask her if she would mind doing something on including others. You can tell her that it isn't because of your kid but because you have witnessed other very nice children engaging in exclusing one particular child and you are worried that your dd will pick up on that and hope that the school will address this topic. This girl probably can't help her sensitivity, even if she does realize that it doesn't win her friends. The book You Can't Say You Can't Play may be a book that you find valuable. It is a quick read by a teacher who talks about her struggle with deciding whether to implement this rule or not, the pros and cons, and her relief when she chose to implement it.

I think it would be great if this girl could just stop all of the behaviors that annoy other kids, but when you have a lot going on in life it is hard for even adults to change. I was this same way until I was eight despite knowing what I should do instead and knowing how this made kids feel. I had so much going on that any little thing made me cry and instead of trying to empathize and try to find out what was wrong teachers told me how I was wrong. I came to feel that I was just a bad person who nobody could like. Teachers seem to be more aware of how wrong it is to do that to children now and more willing to try to work something out and teach children empathy.

[Norasmomma]

What are the mother's challenges? Is she mentally unstable? Ill in some way? Single mom who works a lot? I guess for me I'd have to know a bit of her home life to get a clearer picture on the girls behavior. It sounds to me the issue is much deeper than just the girl being excluded from the other kids, maybe I'm reading into it too much.

That said trying to push a relationship with this girl will most likely backfire. I'm not trying to be mean, but IME as a child my mom tried the exact same thing with me and other kids who had "issues". In all honesty it made me pretty resentful with my mom's behavior. My mom has a big heart, she's always been sweeter than me, but forcing me to be friends didn't work, ever.

I mean how would you feel being forced to hang out with someone you don't particularly care for? I know that when my mom made me have to be friends with similar children as a kid it made me distance myself more.

I'd speak with the teacher, maybe there can be some kind of program started to gain more understanding. It's a hard one.

[Geofizz]

Originally Posted by Norasmomma

What are the mother's challenges? Is she mentally unstable? Ill in some way? Single mom who works a lot? I guess for me I'd have to know a bit of her home life to get a clearer picture on the girls behavior.

Honestly, I would urge parents and teachers involving themselves in issues like these to not focus of such issues.

We are dealing with issues like this at our school now. The issues have been neglected for three years, so there's a lot of remediation work to do.

Of the parents that have complained to the school, the school's response is (1) girl 1 is struggling because her dad died two years ago, (2) girl 2 is struggling because of a disability, (3) girl 3 is just a cry baby, (4) boy 1 is struggling because of a disability, (5) girl 4 is struggling because her dad is working out of state, (6) boy 2 is just too smart for his own good...

For a systemic problem, the school and other parents keeps coming around with the fact that it's effectively the kids/families fault. However, every kid needs and deserves an appropriate education. Schools take social issues as part of their educational mission, and yet they are leaving these issues unsupported.

No, your kid should not be forced to play with my kid. However, your kid needs to learn the social skills to interact with kids with a variety of personalities. At the same time, my kid who struggles needs to be supported by the adults around her to learn the appropriate skills to insert herself appropriately into a group without being told that the only way to make friends is to deny her personality.

[JollyGG]

At the beginning of the year my son really struggled with finding his nitch in the playground and with a group. Some coaching, some proactive help from his teacher, and some play dates all helped.

A few other parents did help a bit by encouraging their child to make sure everyone was invited to play. For example one mom asked her son to specifically invite the other boys when they payed football. Even though everyone was always welcome to join.

But honestly I was able to find a solution as the mother and with the help of his teacher. I don't think the mom of another student could have solved it for him either themselves or through their child.

So I would encourage you to talk to the mom about your concerns and talk to the teacher.

They may be able to coach her on ways to ask to join play. They may be able to identify another child who is also perhaps looking for a friend. They may be able to direct the playground play more effectively, change classroom seating or groupings to promote different interactions between the kids. The teacher and her mother can help work through situations such as "so who are you going to ask to play with at recess? if they don't want to play what are you going to do next? if they do invite you play what are you going to do?" etc.

Some schools even have small groups that meet to work on social skills. The school counselor may have some social tips for the whole class and for this girl specifically.

[carfreemama]

I'm intently reading all these thoughtful responses. For a variety of reasons, I don't think talking to the mom directly right now about this is a good idea. OTOH, I don't want to appoint myself as this girl's social worker or anything. I know I run the risk of coming across just...wrong.

Learning about the group dynamics I think is where I need to start, so that's really helpful, Geofizz. And One_girl, I think that book is exactly the right place to begin getting educated about this stuff.

I know I can't force this child on my dd. She's already at her tolerance level with her. I do pick her up for story night with a bunch of her classmates at a cafe once a month. Her mom is always really receptive to these group outings, but I don't actually talk to her that much. Those nights out usually work okay, but there's still a sense of her "tagging along" that's hard to put a finger on. My dd is one of the only kids who comes home for lunch, so I can probably go to the school playground earlier with her and observe the group dynamic, including the teacher interaction, a bit more.

I just really feel this is somehow my responsibility; not specifically that I'll be able to turn it all around for this girl, but in the overall health of the kids. Dh and I are very aware of this in our own lives; we have a clear "open door" policy and when we have parties/dinners, the invitation is always to whoever hears and wants to come. So I guess that's where I'm coming from, too; although I know it's okay for dd to want to spend time with kids one-on-one and not always include everyone (although I'm even confused about that right now).

BTW, do you think this is part of "feminine" socialization? That's often what I hear about these sorts of issues. I'll talk to the teacher/vice principal. The school does have an active anti-bullying program that includes primary, maybe they can do something related to that.

[Norasmomma]

I guess for me the reasons I brought up what is going on with the mom, does in fact directly relate to her personality. If she's starved for attention at home, it would definitely impact her social skills.

I am speaking on this from 2 levels. I for one know that the couple children who were like this when I was a child were from crap home lives. They cried at the drop of a hat, looking back on it now I feel badly for them, but still as a child if I'd known I *may* have been nicer.

I disagree that it should be ignored, I for one have also gone through a phase as a child where I was very distraught, my parents divorced when I was 11 and I can tell you it for sure impacted my daily relationships. Ignoring the fact did nothing for me, and in fact was probably pretty detrimental.

Geofizz-of the children you describe 2 have effectively lost their fathers(one died and one is working somewhere else). From my own experience I suffered an extreme sense of loss from my parents divorce, for years I essentially lost my dad(pretty much until the birth of my DD 3.5 years ago). It greatly affected my interactions, so much the school did in fact notice, my grades slipped, my socialization faltered(and I am one heck of a outgoing person), my whole personality changed. I'm not blaming this girls behavior on her home life, but for sure if the mother herself says there are "challenges" by golly it does effect this girl.

[LaLaLaLa]

We are struggling with a similar issue. My DD is five; when she was born we joined a weekly playgroup of kids all born around the same time. A lot has happened in the five years since the nine of us moms have been playing! It turns out that one little girl in our group has some global delays. Undiagnosed at the moment, but she lags in gross motor, fine motor, speech, and emotional development. Her mom has said that she mentions my kids by name before playgroups, but once we are together, she simply has no sense of how to initiate or follow along with the kind of play the other kids are engaged in. This is especially devastating for her mom.

Several of the other moms in the group completely ignore the dynamic. The mom is also difficult herself; she doesn't have the firmest grasp on social boundaries, either, although she is completely functional in a group. She just rubs some of the other moms the wrong way, and I think as a result of that the other moms sometimes "don't notice" that her DD is completely left out and unhappy.

I hate to be the ambassador of goodwill for all, especially since it's actually my kid who will have to do the work, but at the same time it's not okay for a child and her mom to be miserable when they should be welcome.

I am lucky in that DD is incredibly social and outgoing. She doesn't yet have that spirit of exclusion; she is willing to include anyone who wants to play. Also, the little girl doesn't live in our town so our time with her is limited to weekly playgroups.

We've had lots of conversations about how it feels when one person is left out, and how we should always go out of our way to make sure nobody is left feeling crummy. DD is very responsive when I mention that her friend has a hard time jumping in, and it would be a really nice thing if she could look around every so often and make sure her friend wasn't looking lonely. Or at the start of a new game with other kids, if she could seek out her friend and ask her if she wanted to play, too. DD is strong and confident (not at all like I was as a child!) and really does have the power to say to the rest of her friends that EVERYONE can play. The other little girl is also a skillful, fearless swimmer, so we make an effort to make private playdates, my two kids with just her, at the pool where her abilities exceed my kids'.

It's a hard thing for a parent. I'm beyond delighted that my DD is willing to step in and be especially nice to someone who needs a friend, and I truly hope she will continue to be compassionate as she gets older. However, I was that compassionate kid, although never outgoing, and I tended to pick up the "strays." I had kids who clung to me because I was the only one who tolerated them. Some of them annoyed me, but I didn't want to be mean and shake them off. It's a burden to be someone's ONLY friend, especially when you experience first-hand all of the things that make that person unable to make other friends. It also put me in a position in which it was hard for ME to make other friends who were more compatible with me, because the kids I wanted to be friends with wouldn't tolerate these other kids. (And the socially awkward mom from our playgroup? Guess who she leans on, confides in, and calls on the phone now? Um, me. But luckily I'm not a child anymore and nobody shuns me because of this friendship. )

It's hard to strike a balance, and I wish that there were huge groups of nice kids who would share the task of welcoming all kids who had a hard time fitting in, and helping them figure out the social stuff that would ease their lives. It seems the schools should be focused on creating that environment.

[Geofizz]

Originally Posted by Norasmomma

Geofizz-of the children you describe 2 have effectively lost their fathers(one died and one is working somewhere else).

Yes, turmoil in the family has long-lasting effects on a child's ability to cope. To place the social problems squarely on these events ignores the fact that the kids need support. I'm not saying that these are not factors, but they are not 100% to be blamed for the problems, and ignoring the social problems because of other circumstances is helping no one. Instead, if adults in these kids' lives work with each kid as an individual to meet their needs, then a lot can be done.

In our case, the problems have been ongoing for 3 years now (the kids are finishing second grade). One dad died 2 years ago (end of kindy) and one dad took the job in the next state in November. He's home Friday through Monday. While these are compounding issues (and in some cases major), they do not affect the fact that other kids are excluding them from their play.

[brokenheart]

Originally Posted by LaLaLaLa

We are struggling with a similar issue.

We are also. It is my DD who feels excluded at times. There are only 5 girls in her grade. At first there were 4, and they paired off into "best friends" (which I don't like, but what can you do?). Then a new girl came and of course decided she wanted my daughter's best friend for herself. And the best-friend seems torn, but often does choose the new girl.

This all sounds SO RIDICULOUS considering they are little kids, but it really does create huge problems. Like yesterday, we watched the other two girls leave for a playdate which DD wasn't invited to. She's very quiet but the emotions come out at bedtime and it breaks my heart. I'm not sure if she's annoying them or not...I'm not there.

Overall, my solution would be for the teachers to work at stopping "best friend" type behaviour at this age. Is that too idealistic? I would prefer if they were encouraged to interact more as a group, in group activities, and for the teacher to be more aware if someone is being exluded.

It is kind of you to care so much.

[Norasmomma]

Originally Posted by Geofizz

Yes, turmoil in the family has long-lasting effects on a child's ability to cope. To place the social problems squarely on these events ignores the fact that the kids need support. I'm not saying that these are not factors, but they are not 100% to be blamed for the problems, and ignoring the social problems because of other circumstances is helping no one. Instead, if adults in these kids' lives work with each kid as an individual to meet their needs, then a lot can be done.

In our case, the problems have been ongoing for 3 years now (the kids are finishing second grade). One dad died 2 years ago (end of kindy) and one dad took the job in the next state in November. He's home Friday through Monday. While these are compounding issues (and in some cases major), they do not affect the fact that other kids are excluding them from their play.

My point is though that this may be why she is exhibiting some of the behaviors that the other kids don't like. The OP said she cries, is ultra needy, sometimes mean, sometimes nice and that the mom has specifically stated there are challenges in the home, then maybe those factors are in fact a contributing factor. I'm not saying that these are reasons to let kids exclude her, but I can see why the kids might.

[carfreemama]

This is all so helpful to read, although it's awful that it's happening to others. It's probably not that uncommon a dynamic. I think it is safe to say that this little girl's home life is contributing to the problem. Often when we go pick her up, there is yelling. One day I heard the mother yell "I'm not putting up with your crap" when she wasn't getting ready fast enough. She came out looking so sad and asked for a hug. I know the mom really cares and it's not always like this, but several parents have commented that she just looks unhappy. There are other things going on, too (not outright abuse as far as I can tell; I do keep my eyes and ears open).

I think I agree with what others have said about keeping the emphasis on groups at this age. FWIW, dd too has always been the girl to seek out other kids and see them included. Her preschool teachers used to comment on this quality and in fact used to pair dd with the new or shy kids. So either this little girl is really hard to be friends with, or the dynamic/my child has changed and is becoming more exclusive or less tolerant. She's also really enjoying all her new friendships, too and I think she does feel the "pull," as a pp mentioned had happened to her as a kid.

I really want to explore this dynamic. It's useful to hear specifics about how other parents have talked about the need to include other kids and not let anyone be left out. I'd love to hear more about "scripts" to use with dd on that. I don't think I'm doing a very good job in having those discussions.

[Mother Cake]

I'm jumping in here even though I'm not a parent yet because I was the excluded kid throughout school, and I know how damaging it can be to have this type of issue downplayed by adults. I think it is fabulous, carfreemama, that you are aware of the issue and wanting to do something about it (and everyone else who replied about similar situations, too). You are right that now is the time to start doing something, because I can tell you from painful experience, roles do become entrenched. When I come into contact with the girls who I grew up with, the social dynamics haven't changed much, even though we are all adults now.

As an adult, I have become aware of some tools that could have been useful if they had been available to me, my parents, and my teachers when I was a child. A major one is an organization called KidPower. They are largely focused on personal safety, but they take emotional issues into account, and put a good deal of emphasis on how good boundaries are essential for good relationships. You might look into whether they have any instructors in your area and could teach a workshop at your school.

What I learned from KidPower is that kids have to learn relationship skills, just like anything else, and they need to learn that it is not o.k. to hurt someones feelings. It's really important for adults to validate the reality of kids feelings and not brush them off. As a child I was brushed off so many times that by the time I was in second grade, I had lost my voice, and was no longer able to even say, "That hurts my feelings." If more of the adults in my life (particularly my teachres) had at least acknowledged my hurt when I tried to tell them about it, I think it would have made a big difference for me, even if they couldn't make the other girls include me. (Not looking for sympathy here, or trying to hyjack the thread, just hoping my experience will be helpful.)

The suggestions others have made about structured group activities and teaching children to interact well in groups are good ones. Some things that made life easier for me as a kid were when the adults gave some structure to play/interactions. For example, if teams are being picked, have the kids count off instead of picking team captins and letting them pick the teams. If the kids are going to be working in small groups and an adult asigns the groups, that can be easier on the "underdog" too.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is much you can do to force friendships between the sensitive girl and her classmates (including your dd), but there are ways to make the time they spend together less painful for the sensitive child. If your dd is rubbed wrong by the sensitve girl, I wouldn't push the issue. If the other girl really is that sensitive, she will notice that your dd is acting friendly, but doesn't really want to be friends, and that can be worse than being ignored.

One final reasource is a book about the social dynamics betwen girls called Queen Bee's and Wannabes. O.K. maybe it's premature, b/c it's targeted at parents of adolecents--but the social dynamics described in the book of "Queen Bees, Wannabes, Targets, Torn Bystanders, and others" began in my classes at school long before adolecesnce. So I thought having a mental picture of the social dynamics might be helpful, even if the specific situations are about 10 years early for your dd.