3Sick + Lethargic 3 yro for 5 days ~ Eeek! ~ Natural remedies or to ER?

[Weisabunny]

Hi all,

My 3.5 yo son is still sick today.

4-19 - threw up 3 times during the night
- seemed fine after that, playing normally. Not a big appetite.

4-22 - chiro gave him homeopathic

4-26 - 5:30 pm complaining tummy hurt. Threw up 3 times during the night. This time he was crying with discomfort (not sure if stomach pain or general discomfort). I think he started to have a fever in the early morning.

4-27 - Went to pediatrician. She said she thought the 2 nights of throwing up were unrelated. She checked for appendisitas and he was OK.

4-28 - woke up at 11 am, napped for 2 hours, very lethargic. Didn't eat.

4-29 - woke during the night MANY times uncomfortable. We gave him Tylenol 9 pm before bed and then 1 am and 5 am. He also drank many times during the night. Woke up very lethargic.
That afternoon he threw up water and. I felt his tummy, it felt hard, and his temp was around 100. I called pediatrician. Spoke to nurse she said to go to the ER because he may be dehydrated (I told her he was drinking and had 'full' diapers) and because he had "severe abdominal pain." I told her I never said that. I said his tummy felt 'hard.' But that it didn't give him sharp pain in one spot when I pushed on it. He just was irritated by me pushing on his stomach.

I immediately looked on Dr. Sears' website and read the different stages of dehydration. Ds' tongue was white but there was moisture under his tongue and in his eyes. He didn't seem dehydrated to me and didn't have "severe abdominal pain." Dh and I decided not to take the nurse's advice to go to the ER. What WAS concerning to me is that he seems soooooooo lethargic. And that he's not eating.

4-30 - last night he woke 3 times asking for tea. He slept better. He is still super lethargic. He is drinking. He asks to and with some resistance he will drink when I ask him to. He feels warm to the touch (his neck, head) but he won't let me take his temp right now. I thought I'd try again after I post here.


What do you all think? I certainly will take him to the ER if we need to! I just am pretty sure it will be traumatic for him (if they give him in IV or something) and to be honest, I don't have a lot of faith in doctors and nurses. And I REALLY don't like the way many of them talk to me. (another topic! =).

My husband keeps trying to make me give him pedialyte and/or gatorade. I found a natural version - coconut water, celery, grapes - I have all those things and came make that... He's going to the store now to get junk chicken soup and junk popsickels. I'm feeling desperate to get some food, nutrients in him! He doesn't want anything but water or tea but this can't go on!!!

I'm feeling a bit paniced as to what to do! 5 days seems soooo long.

Thank you all!!!!!

[kgrands]

The one thing that keeps standing out to me is that you keep saying that he is so lethargic and the hard belly. Both are signs that would worry me. I would call your pediatrician first and see what they say. Maybe there is an urgent care center that you can take him too instead of an ER? Or take your son to an ER that your pediatrician is affiliated with and have them come in and see him?

I wish you luck and hope that your son is feeling better!

[MeepyCat]

Five days of lethargy + some symptoms of dehydration = ER. Unless his regular doctor can see him in the next few hours.

People generally don't get *all* the symptoms of something like dehydration until they're at death's door. So the white tongue would get me in, even if there was moisture beneath it and in his eyes.

If there's a pediatric ER near you, or one attached to a children's hospital, I would try to go there. They'll have a lot of experience helping kids deal with what they have to do, and they're more likely to have child-appropriate sizes of things like IV tubing. (Not that regular hospitals don't have that, but it may not be the first thing to hand.)

And give your husband a bit of a break - he may be reaching for the things that comforted him when he was a sick kid. It's what he knows how to do. But you should, IMO, pack up and head to the ER as soon as possible.

[pianojazzgirl]

Read this definition of lethargic. If that sounds like your ds then you should absolutely take him to the ER.

[MAMom]

I think I would probably go to the ER just to err on the side of caution. On the other hand, on the day I feel most concerned about an illness seems to be the worst of it and things start to get better the next day.

If you decide not to go to the ER, I'd listen to your gut, watch his symptoms carefully, have him sleep in your bed or sleep in his room tonight, encourage him to drink (or fruit popsicle, etc.) and re-evaluate in the a.m.

My DS had rotovirus at 2 and had to have an IV at the hospital (and was there for 3 or so days), and honestly, he was unfazed by the experience.

[shanniesue2]

I would take him in. And I will tell you from experience (my 2 year son has been hospitalized three times... once for pneumonia--we did the ER thing then-- and once for fever after a heart catheterization, and the third time b/c he needed open heart surgery)... there just isn't as much lasting trauma for LOs as we imagine there is. No it isn't pleasant, and we're right, they don't like it, and yes I fully believe that there is body memory of our experiences, but really, once it's all done and over with, they just don't dwell on it afterward. Once they are better, they get up and return to life as usual. Now I will say that it will be a lot more emotionally challenging for you than for him, but just breathe through it... meditate... pray... whatever practice you have that brings you strength. It will be okay, mama. But I think you're at the point where you need to allow yourself to trust the doctors to help your DS get better. Many hugs and blessings to you for strength and peace. And many wishes for your son to feel better, soon. It's so hard to see our babies sick.

[attached2ethan]

As a mom, I think at this point I would go to the ER. Yes it stinks, but sometimes it has to be done. You've tried everything else it seems. I'd just be worried after this many days of not eating/drinking and being lethargic.

Have you considered a bowel obstruction, or that he ate something, etc...? Just a thought. Doesn't sound like a typical stomach virus, but then again I am not a doc.

Hugs to you and hope he feels better soon! If you can get an IV (which is much less traumatic than what he's going through already if he is indeed dehydrated) then you'll know pretty quickly if he perks up.

[shanniesue2]

OP, is there an update? How is your dear LO doing?

[Weisabunny]

Hi all,
Well you're all right as usual!!!!! I love you all, I really do! My dd's 5 yo and I've been posting on here for 5 years. ALWAYS so helpful and supportive! Thank you!!!!!

I didn't get a chance to read the responses until right now (Sunday). Ds woke up from a nap, could barely lift his head and that was it. I was done. We took him in 5:30 pm Friday night and after all the testing - they found his appendix had ruptured! So he had surgery at 11:15 pm that night. It was so scary. We'll be here a week if all goes well.

I'm going to look on the form now for how to heal from surgery. As a natural minded mom I'm having a haaaard time with all the morphine, antibiotics, other stuff their pumping into him. I'm going to research how to clean him out and heal him for when we get home.

Thank you all!

[shanniesue2]

thanks for the update... I'm so glad you took him in!

I had my appendix out when I was 9. It was painful. It's things like this that I think are completely appropriate to rely on what allopathic medicine has to offer. I know when DS had his open heart surgery and they pumped him full of high powered pain meds and abx... I was a little worried, but he was okay. And really, when something is truly wrong... that's what those meds are for and it's okay to use them. Good luck and best wishes for quick healing.

[peaceful_mama]

absolutely the right time to use the ER! Hope all goes well! really stinks that the doc missed appendicitis the first time you went, but *so* typical!

reminds me of when DD was 4 weeks old....took her in to acute care on the weekend with a cough. *I*, two weeks before that, was diagnosed with "walking pneumonia" and given a Z-pak of antibiotics. (coughing so severely I could not drive myself to the clinic...)

The *SAME DOCTOR* treated DD that weekend. I said "I was here two weeks ago, you said I had walking pneumonia and gave me zithromax, is there a chance she has the same thing?"

Doctor insists NO my baby has *bronchitis* and needs a nebulizer.

Long story short, I spend the next several nights with a baby who is getting worse, not better. The neb made her if anything, WORSE.
We get to the next Thursday. Baby starts to cough and choke on what she coughs up, to the point her eyes roll back for a second sometimes...

We visit the ER, the doctor sees her do this once and admits her/us.

A WEEK *later* on the day she was being discharged, the test *finally* comes back to confirm she had....WHOOPING COUGH. And if that stupid doctor had just given her the stupid Z-Pak, it MIGHT have prevented the escalation of her symptoms that landed her in the hospital being pumped full of steroids and all sorts of other junk.
I ended up, after all that, with a baby on Zithromax. Though at this point the only thing it accomplished was making her not-contagious pretty much. (though again I'll restate--had it been given at the *beginning* of her symptoms, when I took her to the acute care clinic, it *could have* kept it from being much worse than an average cold.)

I understand not trusting regular medical doctors and allopathic medicine. I *wish* we had an ND here.

[LCBMAX]

OP - that's so great, congratulations on finding the courage to take your kiddo into an uncomfortable setting to get exactly the right treatment! It sounds like you are a dedicated mama, and I'm guessing you've already given him the healthiest start you could, so I'm sure he'll weather this experience and all that goes with it really well.

Like peaceful mama, I also understand where that mistrust of conventional medicine comes from, and I disagree with many allopathic medical approaches and philosophies. However, in a slide off the topic, I have a reaction to this:

Originally Posted by peaceful_mama

really stinks that the doc missed appendicitis the first time you went, but *so* typical!

If I'm reading your voice right, peaceful, you mean "so typical" in the sense of "they get it wrong so often when they shouldn't." (And if I'm misreading your voice, please excuse/ ignore the rant that follows.) In fact, in this case, missing the appendicitis is typical, but not because the doctor was oblivious to obvious signs. Appendicitis in little kids, and sometimes in big kids too, can be very very hard to diagnose.

The first time the ped saw this child, it's likely that the appendix had yet to become inflamed enough to diagnose without an ultrasound or other imaging (which might have included an exposure to radiation.) Many alternative-minded moms would reasonably refuse that level of testing with so few physical signs of an appendicitis at that stage. I'd be surprised if the pediatrician didn't send them home with the usual caveat of "let me know if things don't improve over the next day, or if new symptoms appear." If she didn't, I'm sure she meant to - it's practically second nature for most MDs these days.

Weisabunny was right on target to get more help when the homeopathy didn't seem to help, and again when the more concerning symptoms arose. Yes, allopathic medicine does get it wrong all the time, but so does alternative medicine. It's simply not possible to avoid making mistakes when caring for others - as for us mamas, and as in this case, when the little one was unlucky enough not to be demonstrating more dramatic symptoms on the day he saw the pediatrician.

The most troublesome thing for me is our persistent... fantasy? misunderstanding? that allopathic medicine should be infalliable, and that mistakes made in allopathy are somehow part of a pattern of irresponsible medical providership. I've had the opportunity to meet many stupid doctors, and many many more smart ones, but all of them very much wanted to do good. Likewise, alternative providers are overwhelmingly motivated by a desire to help, and represent the same kind of ratios of stupid to smart. Same with bus drivers, and plumbers, and so on.

I guess I just really want to encourage folks to think less dichotomously about allopathic and alternative medicines, and to make sure we're all very well informed before we accuse any group of acting typically, especially if "typically" is meant to imply "carelessly."