Wall of Shame for Pro-Vax Cliches - Page 2

[ammiga]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom

Many illnesses are contagious before there are any outward symptoms. For example, measles is transmitted several days prior any clinical signs. That's one of the reasons outbreaks can be hard to contain.

What about all of the illnesses that are not vaccine available? At preschool, the mall, library, stores, and everywhere else, I see kids with massive runny noses and coughs. No one seems to think twice about illnesses that aren't vaccine available. If the big push is really to save the immuno-compromised, those kids should be home too. But, they rarely are. And those illnesses are far more prevalent than the measles.

[MountainMamaGC]

Originally Posted by ammiga

What about all of the illnesses that are not vaccine available? At preschool, the mall, library, stores, and everywhere else, I see kids with massive runny noses and coughs. No one seems to think twice about illnesses that aren't vaccine available. If the big push is really to save the immuno-compromised, those kids should be home too. But, they rarely are. And those illnesses are far more prevalent than the measles.

I was just going to say that. Being autoimmune/immunocompromised I understand I cant always tell if people are carriers of anything really. I do avoid contact with visibly sick people and practice good hygeine like hand washing and not touching my face to protect myself from the people I cant. I still take my daughter to playgroup, I still go in public and I dont excpect anybody to put anything into their body for my sake.

That being said I caught a horrible stomach bug yesterday, but it looks like I will live through it just fine. Germs are everywhere, no matter how many vaccines they come up with, there will still be some kind of germ lurking out there. You cant fix that.

[listipton]

deleted. I really didn't answer Op's question. Thank you

[lunamegn]

My biggest peeve is hearing that vaccines have been "proven safe." My gut tells me something is not right about most vaccines and that's all the proof I need to know that they are not completely safe for my children.

Originally Posted by freestylemama

Not everyone is able to get live vaccines and many sick people rely on healthy people to keep vaccine preventable diseases out of the environment. This is a very valid argument for concerned parents with children with compromised immune systems. One of DD's little friends is HIV+ and one of her babysitters has MS. They cannot get certain vaccines and rely on the rest of us to stay healthy. Having close relationships with a number of people who can't get vaccinated has really changed my perspective about vaccinating and is the reason why we're catching our DD up on everything. Sometimes it's not just about us.

I am the mother of an immuno-compromised child and this is not the way I feel although I'm sure that there are some out there who do. I don't worry so much about vaccine preventable diseases as I do about people going out in public who know they are sick and still put everyone else at risk of exposure. I will say that I do worry about people who have recently been given live vaccines. Also, I don't depend on other people keeping themselves healthy to keep my kid healthy, though I would like people to exercise common sense and stay home when they are sick. I take responsibility for my child's health - we wash our hands after coming home from public places and before we eat. True, there are some things that are airborn but what can I do? Keep my kid isolated from the general population? What kind of a life is that for him?

[Turquesa]

Originally Posted by lasciate

You just contradicted yourself. How can you know what a disease was like if you had never heard of it?

I can see how you read it that way, and I should have worded it better. But that's not at all what I was expressing.

When you hear vax proponents say "Young parents don't know what it was like before certain vaccines were available" well, I do know. It was pretty uneventful where HIB was concerned because I hadn't heard of it. Most of us hadn't. But when vax proponents throw this line at you, you'd think there was once some mass epidemic in the U.S. killing children by the millions.

Originally Posted by heathergirl67

And they're usually not talking about chicken pox. They're talking about polio, diptheria, menengitis, etc. The ones that we didn't see a lot of as kids because the vaccines for them had been out for a while before we were born.

What I hear are generalization, as if all of the diseases were one in the same.

The other thing that gets me is that if you talk to a lot of the "measles generation," (some of whom post here) they didn't think it was such a big deal, either.

[Turquesa]

Originally Posted by ammiga

The rotavirus vaccine isn't even a shot, so that one shouldn't bother you. Ummm... sure. I guess that would be true if my only concern about vaccines was the pain from the needle.

Good one. This one drives me crazy.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by Turquesa

The other thing that gets me is that if you talk to a lot of the "measles generation," (some of whom post here) they didn't think it was such a big deal, either.

I was in the MMR generation and still got mumps and measles (I test neg for rubella titers) and I had the chicken pox and pertussis...I remember them all - uncomfortable? yes...worth the vaccine? no!

[Deborah]

What I find most irritating is the pretense that the vaccine promoting information is based on solid statistics.

For example, when did Hib become a reportable illness? When the vaccine became available. The pre-vaccine numbers are an estimate.

[Deborah]

Another bit that bugs me is the pretense that having vaccines around improves the quality of medical care. Here is a thread (worth reading all the way through if you missed it the first time around) which demonstrates just how bad care can get when the emphasis is on the vaccine available illness, rather than accurate diagnosis and appropriate treatment: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1200715

[Jadzia]

I hate how all vaccines and diseases get lumped in together.

"Numerous studies have shown vaccines do not cause autism."
But only one vaccine (MMR) and one vaccine igredient (thimerosol) have ever been studied in regard to autism. What about all the other vaccines on the schedule? What about all the other ingredients?

"If people stop vaccinating - then it will bring back horrible diseases like polio and smallpox."
If parents choose to avoid vaccines for chicken pox, Hep B, rotavirus and flu, how will that bring back polio and smallpox?

I also find it interesting that pro-vax people always use smallpox as an example. Are they not aware that we no longer vaccinate for smallpox? And we no longer vaccinate for smallpox because it was deemed more of a risk to have the vax than contract the disease? How come smallpox hasn't come back if they are so worried?

Here are some of my favorite pro-vax contradictions.

"More and more parents are refusing vaccines - diseases will come back."/
"But we can't do an vaccinated/unvaccinated study - there aren't enough people out there that don't vax to use as a control group!"

"There is no autism epidemic - it is just better diagnosed now."/ "Thimerasol has been removed from vaxes but autism rates keep going up!"*

*I love this one, because not only has thimerasol not been removed from all vaxes but the most recent autism figures are based on 8 year olds in 2006 who would have received the full dose of thimerasol anyway.

[AllyRae]

Hi, selective vaxer here (my older two are fully vaxed except the DS1 can't have the pertussis vax due to a confirmed severe reaction, or any live vaccines, and DD1 can't have live vaccines. DD2 can't have any vaccines due to an immune deficiency, so with her, I guess we are non-vaxers)

Originally Posted by an_domhan

Respectfully, if a person is HIV + or has demonstrable immune system issues, are they not required to take more precaution when interacting with society? If my child was compromised, it is not my neighbor's responsibility to ensure my child's safety.



Are you under the impression that vaccinated people don't spread disease?

What more precautions can we take? My daughter has an immune deficiency where she does not make IgA--every cold, every little stomach virus has the potential to put her in the hospital. (Thank goodness so far it hasn't. She is literally sick 2 weeks out of every single month of her 15 month life, and usually it involves either something that causes her to projectile vomit until bile comes up or to have a respiratory illness so she can't breathe well for a week).

Anyhow, what more precautions can we take? We limit crowds. She's breastfed. She's on an all organic, dairy free, gluten free, egg free, whole foods, no artificial colors/flavors, no processed food, and no refined food diet. She is outside every single day for at least one hour. We leave a room instantly if anyone in the room shows signs of being sick. We had the priest at our church post signs in the cry room banning sick children from entering so that we could at least be safe at church. We sanitize shopping carts before we touch them, and she rides in slings so that she doesn't touch them. We feed her immune boosting foods like goji berries and green smoothies. We keep our house toxin free as best we can. She has no exposure to smoke and we live in the country so she's not really exposed to air pollution. She doesn't attend daycare or large classes. Basically, we do every single thing we can. She's 15 months old and she has literally been sick half of her life. The only other thing we can do is put her in a bubble (which obviously we are not going to do. : )

There is only so much we can do to keep her safe. We have to depend on other people to contribute to a safe environment to her.

I respect people's right to choose what's best for their kids. But please don't assume that those of us with immune compromised kids can do any more than what we are doing. Of course vaxed kids can spread disease. But I'm very worried about people spreading diseases to my immune compromised kid that are even worse for her. A common cold can potentially put her on a ventilator...what do you think pertussis can do to her?

Anyhow, like I said, I fully respect other's choices to do right by their kids. But please don't spread the false idea that "if we just took more precautions" our kids would be safe...it's just not true.

ETA: And yes, I agree with the above posts that sick kids need to stay home. But that's neither here nor there for this thread. We all know sick people should stay home. But a) most don't. and b) most are contagious before they know they are sick.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by Jadzia

"Numerous studies have shown vaccines do not cause autism."
But only one vaccine (MMR) and one vaccine igredient (thimerosol) have ever been studied in regard to autism. What about all the other vaccines on the schedule? What about all the other ingredients?

and...they always act like the thimerisol was in the MMR....When that one comes up, I stop right there because I know the person has no idea what they're talking about.

[stacey05]

>I respect people's right to choose what's best for their kids. But please don't assume that those of us with immune compromised kids can do any more than what we are doing. Of course vaxed kids can spread disease. But I'm very worried about people spreading diseases to my immune compromised kid that are even worse for her. A common cold can potentially put her on a ventilator...what do you think pertussis can do to her?<

Pertussis is a really bad example. The vaccine is not a very good one for preventing the transmission of pertussis and it isn't very good at preventing someone from getting it. It has been said that it can lessen the severity of the symptoms in a vaccinated person. I know of an adult...a very VAXED adult (MILITARY!)...who walked around for weeks with it and they just said it was bronchitis till he was tested for it. His mother suggested he get tested...he is a grown man with kids. Who knows how many people were exposed because of him? An unvaccinated individual might have more severe or classic symptoms (adults don't usually whoop like kids do) and will know they have it and stay home. I do worry about my child getting measles and spreading it to a younger infant who is not old enough to be immunized. BUT, they need to make a safer vaccine (many parents think the mmr damaged their child..and I listen to parents who know their child best) and they need to offer it separated. I would consider it then. The other side of that is babies used to be better protected from measles until they were older from their mother's antibodies because their mothers all had natural measles infections. Babies today do not get that protection because most of us had vaccines for measles instead of real measles. How am I or my child responsible for what vaccines have messed up in this scenario? I do think the mmr works for helping to prevent measles, but it is not without its side effects. I cannot risk my child's health for another child that he may or may not come into contact with or infect or not infect, etc. I just read about healthy children having major complications from the new flu shot in Australia...one toddler even died. Some would say we should get the flu shot to help not spread it to immune compromised kids, but what about the healthy kids that have died or are now damaged in some way because of the vaccine that was not safe. I am all for thinking of others and doing what I can to not put others in harms way, but not at the risk of hurting my child with something that has not been proven safe and has a history of damaging healthy kids.

[heathergirl67]

Originally Posted by stacey05

The other side of that is babies used to be better protected from measles until they were older from their mother's antibodies because their mothers all had natural measles infections. Babies today do not get that protection because most of us had vaccines for measles instead of real measles. How am I or my child responsible for what vaccines have messed up in this scenario?

Neither the disease itself nor the vaccine guarantees you lifelong immunity. So I question the basis of that argument.

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by ammiga

What about all of the illnesses that are not vaccine available? At preschool, the mall, library, stores, and everywhere else, I see kids with massive runny noses and coughs. No one seems to think twice about illnesses that aren't vaccine available. If the big push is really to save the immuno-compromised, those kids should be home too. But, they rarely are. And those illnesses are far more prevalent than the measles.

So, just because a vaccine is not available for everything, we should vaccinate for nothing?

Personally, I'll vaccinate for what's available to save my children (and others, if possible) from those illnesses. That includes a flu shot every year. And, yes, all of my vaccines are up to date. I have been getting a flu shot every year since 1996, when I had a killer case of the flu which knocked my on my butt for 3 months. Since I started getting the flu shot, I haven't had the flu once. And I literally come in close contact with dozens of people with flu every year.

That's my experience.

[kavamamakava]

Originally Posted by heathergirl67

Neither the disease itself nor the vaccine guarantees you lifelong immunity. So I question the basis of that argument.

The ability for a woman to pass on rubella immunities to her fetus/infant is interrupted by the vaccine. This means that infants are presenting with vaccine preventable diseases at younger and younger ages and we don't even give the MMR to infants.

[Raine822]

I don't know if this is common or a cliche but... A friend of mine recently questioned her doctor about the chicken pox vaccine. She was unsure about it because chicken pox is generally not a very serious disease and the list of "possible side effects" was troubling her. The doctor told her that today's chicken pox is not the same as 20 years ago and much more dangerous. I have never heard this and one of the pedis in our practive even told us that chicken pox is no big deal. Anyone else heard of this?

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by freestylemama

Not everyone is able to get live vaccines and many sick people rely on healthy people to keep vaccine preventable diseases out of the environment.This is a very valid argument for concerned parents with children with compromised immune systems. One of DD's little friends is HIV+ and one of her babysitters has MS. They cannot get certain vaccines and rely on the rest of us to stay healthy. Having close relationships with a number of people who can't get vaccinated has really changed my perspective about vaccinating and is the reason why we're catching our DD up on everything. Sometimes it's not just about us.

I agree with you. I just don't believe that mass vaccinations keep people healthy.

Also perhaps you assume that I have no experience with immunocompromised people. This is far from the case. Since I think the entire concept of herd immunity is flawed and as I said above, vaccinating does not = health, than the "it's not just about us" arguement falls flat for me. And yes it IS just about my child. My responsibility as a parent is to protect my child from harm. The immunocompromised people in my life understand this and do not expect me to risk his life. The fact that there ARE multiple people in my own family that are immunocompromised/autoimmune is one of the reason we choose not to vax in the first place. I agree with you for those who buy into herd immunity this is a valid reason for some to vax (like yourself), what I have a problem with is people in a place of authority (and even those who are not) using this to beat parents like myself with over the head to make us feel selfish and guilty. If my child sustains a vax injury, I assure you those people will NOT be there to support me financially, emotionally or otherwise.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by Raine822

I don't know if this is common or a cliche but... A friend of mine recently questioned her doctor about the chicken pox vaccine. She was unsure about it because chicken pox is generally not a very serious disease and the list of "possible side effects" was troubling her. The doctor told her that today's chicken pox is not the same as 20 years ago and much more dangerous. I have never heard this and one of the pedis in our practive even told us that chicken pox is no big deal. Anyone else heard of this?

CP is more dangerous today because they have a vaccine to sell.

Same reason Measles became so dangerous 50 years ago.

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by Marnica

I agree with you. I just don't believe that mass vaccinations keep people healthy.

Also perhaps you assume that I have no experience with immunocompromised people. This is far from the case. Since I think the entire concept of herd immunity is flawed and as I said above, vaccinating does not = health, than the "it's not just about us" arguement falls flat for me. And yes it IS just about my child. My responsibility as a parent is to protect my child from harm. The immunocompromised people in my life understand this and do not expect me to risk his life. The fact that there ARE multiple people in my own family that are immunocompromised/autoimmune is one of the reason we choose not to vax in the first place. I agree with you for those who buy into herd immunity this is a valid reason for some to vax (like yourself), what I have a problem with is people in a place of authority (and even those who are not) using this to beat parents like myself with over the head to make us feel selfish and guilty. If my child sustains a vax injury, I assure you those people will NOT be there to support me financially, emotionally or otherwise.

I am in the same boat for this first part at least. My mother is very immuno-compromised and neither myself, DH or DD get any vaccines (live or otherwise) in part because of her health. If any of us so much as has a sniffle we stay away from her (understanding you can be transmitting something without even having a symptom for weeks).

I know that it can be selfish to say "well frankly I am more concerned with my child as it is my job to protect them first and foremost", but I can't look my daughter in the eye and imagine a situation where I wouldn't put her well-being and health before anyone including myself or my husband. It is truly sad that there are immune compromised children in the world as well as adults (my own mother) but I still care more about my daughter than any of them (including my own mother! Sorry mom, still love you though!)