Venus of Willendorf + Christian views of Pagan religious items - Page 3

[2xy]

Honey-Lilac, from the little bit you've told us about your mom here, it sounds like she might have a touch of OCD. And if she does, it's not just a matter of being inflexible or difficult; she may have a serious problem with deviating from a certain way of life.

[mamabadger]

Honestly, I think keeping religious items out of common living areas is the best approach, in spite of the inconvenience. What is or is not offensive or contrary to a person's faith is a delicate matter and can be hard to categorize clearly. Besides, she should be able to feel comfortable in her own home. I can see or hear things which go against my religious principles and not think twice about it, if it is in public or in another person's home. Having the same things in my own home would be different; that would feel like an intrusion. I think this is a case in which good fences make good neighbours.

[Grace and Granola]

FWIW, I've only read about half the replies. But I have to say, and pardon the stereotype, but for an older catholic woman, it sounds like she's being pretty agreeable about all of this. When I read the title of this thread, I immediately assumed that this old-fashioned catholic woman was not going to allow ANY of your items in a shared home, but from your op, it sounds like that one figure is the only thing she had a huge problem with, right?

I'm a fairly conservative christian, although intrigued by other faiths, but I would have to say that things like the pentacle symbols would bother me, for the sheer fact that most people think they ARE satanic symbols. No matter what they really mean, or what they mean to you, I would be hesitant to have them around just because if my friends came over they might assume they were satanic symbols and freak out! So, if your mom is conceding to having most of your images around and you are conceding to having her crucifixes in every room, it seems fairly agreeable. I think it could be a great testimony to your children of how people of different faiths can co-exist in harmony.

As far as your other items, I would just try to integrate them into the decor if you can. It sounds like having a chalice on the mantle could be tastefully done in a way that could look decorative to your mom but still hold its meaning to you. The cauldron....I'll be honest, I can't even imagine what the would look like! But the broom by the door sounds like a standard harvesty type of seasonal decorating. Wouldn't bother me a bit.

I hope you all can work it out. It sounds like your mom really needs to be around her family and you could possibly have great benefit from her being with you.

[honey-lilac]

The pentacle we talked about. At first she said that it was really close to the inverted pentacle (the one that points down) and that bothered her. I told her I understood her concern, but I also pointed out that some Satanists (or wannabe Satanists, or whatever) used an upside down cross in their decor as well. She agreed to that point; she wouldn't not have a cross in her house because some Satanist might corrupt the symbol by turning it upside down, and now that she knows the real meaning of the symbol it wouldn't bother her. It was good that we got past the misunderstanding. As far as her friends go - she doesn't have any. Another reason she's really lonely. She's like the stereotypical cat lady - she has four cats but no friends or family (except us). It's sad.

She might have OCD; she does have tendencies to hoard so maybe those are connected. In her defense when I was a teen she was in a very abusive relationship with my father. He's since died now and while she was very depressed to be alone, I do think that she was taking out her issues on me, i.e. she couldn't be in control of her own life (he controlled everything) so she in turn tried to be really controlling of me. Not excusing it but I think that things have the *potential* to be different now. I hope so.

Oh, and the last thing about the cauldron? It's nothing really crazy. It's just a small cast iron pot, about 5" in diameter. It looks like this but with no lid. There are no symbols on it or anything. It started out as an autumn mantle decoration with some gourds and dried flowers but then we just kept it up there. We keep Easter eggs in it in the Spring, pinecones in the winter, tiny pumpkins in the fall, etc. And we also use it to collect change and spare cash to donate to charity.

[honey-lilac]

And yes, I do think that she's being very reasonable about it. When I was a teenager she didn't let anything Pagan into the house. Which was her right and I respected it. I didn't *like* not being able to have stuff in my room (I wouldn't have dreamed of asking to put something in the living room or anything) but I was a kid living under her roof so that was her right.

But since it was her idea to move in together in the first place, and I started bringing up my concerns (like the fact that I want to celebrate my faith) she said that she would be willing to compromise.

I feel bad for her too because I know that she would like me/us to be Catholic, but it's not going to happen. Her whole family was religious growing up and except for her mother, everyone abandoned religion altogether. I'm the only one who is religious, except I'm not Christian. So it kind of sucks for her, because I know she really does believe in the whole salvation-through-Catholicism thing. I almost *wish* I could be Catholic just to make her happy sometimes. I'm definitely not trying to throw it in her face that I'm a different religion. But for the sake of sounding hippy-dippy-self-fulfilled I feel like I have to be true to myself and practice the faith I believe is right for me and my family. It does suck we can't all share the same faith though, it would make things SO much easier.

[Grace and Granola]

Originally Posted by honey-lilac

And yes, I do think that she's being very reasonable about it. When I was a teenager she didn't let anything Pagan into the house. Which was her right and I respected it. I didn't *like* not being able to have stuff in my room (I wouldn't have dreamed of asking to put something in the living room or anything) but I was a kid living under her roof so that was her right.

But since it was her idea to move in together in the first place, and I started bringing up my concerns (like the fact that I want to celebrate my faith) she said that she would be willing to compromise.

I feel bad for her too because I know that she would like me/us to be Catholic, but it's not going to happen. Her whole family was religious growing up and except for her mother, everyone abandoned religion altogether. I'm the only one who is religious, except I'm not Christian. So it kind of sucks for her, because I know she really does believe in the whole salvation-through-Catholicism thing. I almost *wish* I could be Catholic just to make her happy sometimes. I'm definitely not trying to throw it in her face that I'm a different religion. But for the sake of sounding hippy-dippy-self-fulfilled I feel like I have to be true to myself and practice the faith I believe is right for me and my family. It does suck we can't all share the same faith though, it would make things SO much easier.

It sounds like you and she are trying to have a very mature, adult relationship, and I commend you for that! I bet if you can keep communicating with your mom about all of this you will find your way to peaceful co-habitation.

BTW...thanks for clarifying the cauldron for me! I had conjured up a fifth grader's idea of a cauldron bubbling and frothing with who knows what inside! Easter eggs and gourds sound fantastic!

[christianmomof3]

I think that the VoW is a neat artifact, but I can see how it could be seen as "ugly" because it does not fit today's female body image and if your mom has weight problems and does not like her body, that could be why she finds it icky.


As far as a "Christian" POV - one thing that I have not seen on this thread is that the Bible says to honor your parents. So, if your mom does not want that out in public in the house, you would be honoring her to comply with her wishes.

[mollycce]

Originally Posted by philomom

Thank you! I was just coming in here to say the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_Willendorf

I like her from a history point of view if nothing else.

I love the Willendorf sculpture and consider it almost a personal "totem" of sorts for me. That said, I do not see her as a literal representation of a deity. I see her more as "honoring the female form." I love that she is so full-figured and not "perfect" or beautiful. I like that she is not pregnant (there is some disagreement about this, I guess) and what I like best is that she is "complete unto herself." She is a complete form--not just a headless pregnant belly, etc. I just LOVE her--but, I don't "pray" to her anything like that. My religious beliefs are kind of hard to sort out. I guess she does represent to me a "power" that I can't exactly put my finger on/identify. It has taken me a LONG time to realize that that "power" I perceive in the world, is what some people call "God" and that for me, personally, I like to put a feminine form to it, even though I believe it is something beyond full human comprehension.

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by honey-lilac

Another thing that bothers me is that, I am raising my children in my faith. It would bother me that for the length of time we were living with my mother, which could really be like, quite a few years - her religious items could be in the common area, but our stuff had to be "hidden" in our personal bedrooms as if it was something to be ashamed of or something. I don't want that sort of baggage on the kids. Maybe I'm thinking too much into it but I don't want them to get into the habit of thinking that our faith is somehow... I dunno. Less than.

This is a very valid concern. While you may be raising your children Pagan, as you know, they're exposed to Christian influences constantly outside your home. Putting them into a living situation where they are also surrounded by Christian symbols (and it sounds like your mom plans to do more religious decorating than you do) not only pushes a different religion into their consciousness even more, but invalidates your faith. What I mean is that they will eventually notice that mom has a lot of her religious items "hidden" in her room whereas grandma's religious items are on display everywhere, and may conclude that being Pagan is something to hide or be ashamed of. Also, how is your mom going to handle the mealtime prayers the children say? If you haven't discussed this with her, you need to. She may not be able to accept hearing them give thanks to anyone other than her god, and she may go so far as trying to "correct" them. This is something I would look at VERY carefully!

[honey-lilac]

Yeah, it's a bother to me too. My mom was never very good with respecting religious boundaries. When I was a teen she would "accidentally" brush against my forehead to smooth away hair or something and make a little sign of the cross. Totally not sneaky but she thought she was. Or she would hide holy cards of saints behind my posters or in other places in my room. Or when my son was born and she knew he wasn't going to be Christened she "did it herself" with some holy water when she thought I wasn't looking. It really upset me, not because of her intentions (which I'm sure were to help me/us out) but because I don't think it's ethical to interfere with anyone's spiritual path like that. I don't cast spells, but how would she like it if I went to go cast a spell on her? Or hid little ritual items in her room? Or just traced a rune on her forehead or something? I don't think she'd appreciate it very much. I can't imagine doing something like that to someone. I don't think she "harmed" anything with her actual actions, but I do think she caused some harm in our relationship.

Ugh, yeah, this thread is bringing back a bit of baggage and memories. Not all of them pleasant.

[honey-lilac]

Originally Posted by christianmomof3

As far as a "Christian" POV - one thing that I have not seen on this thread is that the Bible says to honor your parents. So, if your mom does not want that out in public in the house, you would be honoring her to comply with her wishes.

We have a similar thing in respecting elders - and she would fit into it. I guess I'm having a hard time seeing where to draw the line between what is honoring/respecting her as an elder/parent and what is... like, where I have a right to respectfully have a say as well. If she specifically said "I will absolutely not have any such items in my house" I would say, "OK, that is your right, but then we're not going to move in there. Let's find another solution where we can both be happy and live in separate homes." However, she says that she is open to our expressions of faith - at least somewhat. It's just a difficult thing to figure out what is our role in respecting her wishes -- and what is realistic for her to expect.

I mean, I guess if I truly "honored" her wishes well enough, I'd convert to Christianity, right? Or what if it was reversed, and she was Pagan and I was Christian - there are precedents of "respectfully" going against your parents to convert to Christianity. Wasn't St. Lucy one of those saints who were basically martyred because they didn't want to be their parents' religion?

I don't think I'm making too much sense here, I'm a bit tongue-tied!

Originally Posted by mollycce

I love the Willendorf sculpture and consider it almost a personal "totem" of sorts for me. That said, I do not see her as a literal representation of a deity. I see her more as "honoring the female form." I love that she is so full-figured and not "perfect" or beautiful. I like that she is not pregnant (there is some disagreement about this, I guess) and what I like best is that she is "complete unto herself." She is a complete form--not just a headless pregnant belly, etc. I just LOVE her--but, I don't "pray" to her anything like that. My religious beliefs are kind of hard to sort out. I guess she does represent to me a "power" that I can't exactly put my finger on/identify. It has taken me a LONG time to realize that that "power" I perceive in the world, is what some people call "God" and that for me, personally, I like to put a feminine form to it, even though I believe it is something beyond full human comprehension.

I love how you put it. It's very similar to how we see her, as well. We don't pray to the figure itself or even imagine that Deity "looks" like her (Deity doesn't "look" like anything!) but it's some form to focus on - even though it is beyond human comprehension.

[Bluegoat]

[QUOTE=honey-lilac;15394441

I mean, I guess if I truly "honored" her wishes well enough, I'd convert to Christianity, right? Or what if it was reversed, and she was Pagan and I was Christian - there are precedents of "respectfully" going against your parents to convert to Christianity. Wasn't St. Lucy one of those saints who were basically martyred because they didn't want to be their parents' religion?
[/QUOTE]

One of my favorite saints - though she has been removed from the calendar - is Wilgefortis. She was promised in marriage to a pagan king by her father. She prayed for a way out of it, and God caused her to grow a beard, which made the pagan back off from the arrangement.

Unfortunately that really ticked off her dad, and he had her crucified.

But clearly the story does not support parental obedience at all costs.

[christianmomof3]

Originally Posted by honey-lilac

We have a similar thing in respecting elders - and she would fit into it.
I mean, I guess if I truly "honored" her wishes well enough, I'd convert to Christianity, right?

I don't see it that way. To honor your parents does not necessarily mean that you agree with them. It does not mean that if your parents are thieves and they want you to join them in robbing a bank that you should do so.
As far as your religious beliefs go though, I think you should respect her wishes as much as you are able to.

In my case, I was raised Jewish. When I became a Christian, my father was not happy about it. But, like your mom, he did compromise some. He allowed me to have prayer meetings at his house. He simply was out those evenings. He was also respectful in many other ways as your mom is. But there were some things he would not compromise on.
And though they may have been important to my beliefs, I respected his wishes.
At my wedding, for example, he did not want us to use the name "Jesus". To him, that was offensive. So, we simply used the title "Lord" or "God". It was a way of honoring his wishes and being respectful to him.