whole word reading?

[kathymuggle]

I am a phonics/phonemics loving gal. My older two defintiely learned to read through sounding things out.

My youngest does not seem to work that way. Sounding things out seems to be somewhat of a struggle - and she guesses words a lot. Almost constantly.

I am wonderring if ther are any really cool (yet inexpensive) whole word strategy books/resources that people can reccomend?

TIA!

Kathy

[Citymomx3]

Wow. Are you me?

This is exactly my same situation. I've always been a phonics person, my older 2 girls always sounded things out and were early readers, and my youngest - definitely a whole word reader.

I've had a hard time wrapping my head head around it and had no idea what to do. He's 9 now and reads pretty well.

What I did was create my own program using books that go well with whole language learners, like: "Fly Guy", "Owl at Home", "Little Bear", even "Dick and Jane", and others that use repetitive language. I bought a set of sight word flashcards and made so many different games out of them. Ds would write them out on a big dry-erase board instead of a notebook (not sure why this was so effective, but it was). He'd write sentences with the words or we'd have a speed reading contest with the cards. We just made it fun.

I then bought something called Hooked on Phonics Master Reader. It's for ages 7+ and it shows how to break up larger words for easier recognition. It's about $60 and it's really helpful. We do 2 lessons a week.

And nothing has worked better than just reading. I have ds read out loud to me several times a day. During our morning academics he'll read 3 or 4 pages of something and then only like 1 page of something every few hours or so. The key with him is that he needs to keep up some sort of reading practice. We also use a literature-based (relaxed) curriculum which I know is helpful, too.

I do suspect some mild dyslexia as well so I've been super vigilant with him.

[AAK]

Research doesn't favor whole word reading. There seems to be a "max" out level of 4th grade reading level with this method. I will post a reference later.

Have you looked at http://www.abcdrp.com/ (ABeCeDarian reading program). It is phonics based but makes sure that phonemic awareness skills are strong first. I would look at that before doing whole word.

amy

[lach]

I just wanted to thread hijack to say good for you for figuring this out! I was a whole word reader in a phonics world, and it was very exasperating for all of the adults in my life. It wasn't until the summer after second grade when my parents could accept that I just didn't "get" phonics, and I probably never would. My father was a cognitive scientist with a special interest in childhood development, so I think he was actually really upset that I didn't fit in to all of the major theories!

I hate to say it, and I know that it's anathema to most of the homeschoolers on this board... but I remember what really helped me was flash cards. Basically, I have a really hard time breaking down words: it just took rote memorization to get started. I wish I could help you with your question, though. I have a feeling that most of the curricula that does emphasize whole words is going to be VERY old fashioned, and probably not in a good way.

FWIW I went from functionally illiterate to reading at a middle school level the summer between 2nd and 3rd grade. I'm an incredibly fast reader. I'll believe that many kids hit a brick wall when being taught to read primarily by sight words, but no way will I believe that all kids will. All kids are different, and no two kids learn everything the exact same way. Most adults sight read! I can pretty much guarantee you that unless you have some processing issues, you read every word that I've written in this post just by glancing at the word: they're all very common words that you've probably seen a million times before and now recognize without a second thought.

[sbgrace]

I was thinking that about my son. I've been told that he actually likely has mild dyslexia. It's either that or he's a very much right brained kiddo for whom this doesn't come naturally. Whatever the underlying issues though I've done a ton of reading in this area. I've also talked to several adults who learned to read whole language (dyslexia in one and not in the others). I've decided that for the sake of future writing (spelling particularly) I am going to throw myself into phonics with my son. Two of the adults I mentioned actually went back as adults and did a phonics program (both teachers themselves) and wished they had been taught that way/said it helped their life long spelling troubles. I'm using techniques for dyslexics..it's clicking for him. I'd strongly consider, instead, looking into a dyslexia specific program for her if I were in your place.

Lach, that's the theory behind whole word reading (that we who learned by phonics aren't forever sounding out words of course) but the research into actually teaching reading from that theory/start point isn't panning out imo.

[lach]

Originally Posted by sbgrace

Lach, that's the theory behind whole word reading (that we who learned by phonics aren't forever sounding out words of course) but the research into actually teaching reading from that theory/start point isn't panning out imo.

Sorry, my point was that research into teaching might be about the way that most kids learn how to read, but there's no reason to believe that phonics is best for EVERY SINGLE child. Different kids learn differently, and I think it's so strange that people on this thread are denying that! I'm not advocating bringing back whole word instruction in classrooms: there's no doubt that whole word instruction was a disaster (and that was known 20 years ago). But why doubt that OP's child (and I) really and truly just have some sort of weird phonics mental block? Kids are different, and they learn differently.

[Savoir Faire]

Spell to Write and Read by Wanda Sanseri.

We struggled for over a year before finally going to this. My daughter has learned more in a couple weeks of STWAR than she did with everything else.

[Savoir Faire]

Originally Posted by AAK

Research doesn't favor whole word reading. There seems to be a "max" out level of 4th grade reading level with this method. I will post a reference later.

Obviously research has never set with a child who looks at you as if you are speaking a foreign language while trying to learn phonics.

Research probably also never had that child cry all the time, declare she hates reading and never wants to read and have you at your wits end.

I did not learn with phonics. Neither did my husband. Eventually, as an adult, I figured it out. My husband has never figured it out.

Our son? Understands phonics. Daughter? Nothing. at all.

That's why I suggest Spell to Write and Read. It helps with the spelling rules BEHIND whole word reading...and has even helped my child work on sounding out words....something none of the other programs were able to do.

Being a homeschooling parent of a non-phonics child in a phonics world is very frustrating.

[kathymuggle]

Thank you for the suggestions! Keep them coming.

Here is an example of what she does :

"Bob decided he did not want to go to the lake".

She will look at the word "decided" and guess "didn't " (or some other "d" word) without taking time to decode it. This is constant.

She will also stumble on the word "lake". She will pronounce it lack - despite the fact that I have gone over the "silent e at end of words rule" many, many times. Indeed she gets it easily when we do a worksheet - but it totally goes out the window when she reads a sentence. This is the case with most phonic rules.

She does avoid reading and wants to be read to (which I do, of course)

Interstingly enough, she likes to write and writes better than she reads (which makes no sense but is true!) so the Write to Spell and Read may work out well!

kathy

[Just1More]

She may be a bit beyond this, but I would pick a book, and make flash cards of all the words in it. I would do about 10 at a time until she knows them. After I was confident she knew all the words by sight alone, THEN I would show her the book. Also, I know, I know...flash cards...but they really do work... I would teach words off the Dolch and Fry common word lists. By only giving her material that she for sure can read, it should help boost her confidence because you won't have to correct her all the time.

I learned by mostly sight words, and am a very fast reader. (about 1000 words a minute). Along the way, I've picked up some phonics rules, but I am pretty weak with them. So, not to pick sides or whatever, but I agree with Lach. I'm certainly one of the ones who didn't max out at a 4th grade level.

Oh, if you want to avoid the flash card routine, pick books that use a lot of repetitive language. Assign her a handful of words to read everytime you pass them, and you read the rest. Use your finger to help her track if you have to. The next reading, add a few more words.

[Savoir Faire]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

"Bob decided he did not want to go to the lake".

She will look at the word "decided" and guess "didn't " (or some other "d" word) without taking time to decode it. This is constant.

She will also stumble on the word "lake". She will pronounce it lack - despite the fact that I have gone over the "silent e at end of words rule" many, many times. Indeed she gets it easily when we do a worksheet - but it totally goes out the window when she reads a sentence. This is the case with most phonic rules.

We have all of that, but on a younger age level. "cat" would become "kitty".... I saw my child drive an experienced teacher with special ed credibility CRAZY. It was quite interesting...yet this teacher didn't catch on that the "kitty" vs "cat" thing is sometimes a sign of Dyslexia.

The guessing based on the first letter or so is SOOO frustrating. We actually stepped away from reading (she had enough words memorized on her own) so that we could go through the spelling. It is helping.

I still think, my personal favorite with all of this.... the backwards sentences. Say my child wanted to write your sentences,
"Bob decided he did not want to go to the lake".

I'd get this:

ekal eht ot og ot tnaw ton did eh dediced bob

[sbgrace]

Savoir Faire. I'm confused. You're right that the guessing described by the OP is a sign of dyslexia. Of course dyslexic kids don't understand phonics! Of course they resist reading programs. I'm dealing with this stuff too. I get that it isn't natural for some kids.

OG programs are what work with dyslexia. They all go from a spelling approach like you describe. In fact, I think the program you're recommending is based on the same principals as OG programs. It's simply systematic phonics....I'm confused. From their own website:

* RELIABLE...We teach systematic phonics instead of look-say. Reading instruction is rooted in the sound-symbol system, not limited to visual memory.

At any rate, I agree this is the approach for the OP's daughter though I might do a different program as some have success w/ SWR but others find it's not incremental enough I've been told. All About Spelling or Barton Reading are two often mentioned in dyslexia yahoo groups and the like. Good thread for homeschooling options for dyslexia programs and SWR is mentioned I believe (w/caveats I think) along with the programs I mentioned. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forum...&highlight=o-G


I forgot to link in OP--take a look at this site. Lots of really great information on dyslexia which I think is possible w/your daughter. http://www.dys-add.com/symptoms.html

[Dar]

My daughter started as a basically whole-word reader, other than some Reader Rabbit game playing that taught her some rudimentary phonics. I think with kids like that, you can focus on whether a sentence makes sense, rather than asking them to sound out a word. So, if your daughter says lack for lake, you could point out that that's a pretty weird thing to go to, and if the book has pictures you might even suggest looking at them to see if the word might be something else. If she thinks "lake" while seeing l-a-k-e enough times, she'll make the connection.

I know my daughter didn't sound out names for years - I remember her talking once about "Tildoris", and when I actually looked at the book I could see that the name was "Tia Dolores"... but at the same time, she was reading the books like candy (that's the American Girls series, btw) and understanding them just fine... and she knew that this was the name of the aunt in the story, but she didn't know the words tia or Dolores and didn't bother trying to figure them out.

And now she pronounces (and spells) polysyllabic words in three languages, and she's not dyslexic. She learned the rules of phonics through reading, rather than learning to read through knowing the rules of phonics, but the end result is the same. It's like speech... most children learn the rules of a language without any explicit instuction, but just by doing it.

[kathymuggle]

Interesting discussion.

I have no idea if she is dyslexic - or simply a late bloomer. I am hesitant to label one so young. Despite this, I certainly do want to address things if there is an issue. I looked at the list of symptoms on the above posted link - and she has most of the reading ones, but few of the "other" symtoms. Isn't it fun being a parent and trying to figure out if there is an issue or your over-reacting?

I will certainly look at the resources they recommend for helping dyslexic children - because whether she is or not, if the resources help, no harm no foul.

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by sbgrace

Savoir Faire. I'm confused. You're right that the guessing described by the OP is a sign of dyslexia. Of course dyslexic kids don't understand phonics! Of course they resist reading programs. I'm dealing with this stuff too. I get that it isn't natural for some kids.

OG programs are what work with dyslexia. They all go from a spelling approach like you describe. In fact, I think the program you're recommending is based on the same principals as OG programs. It's simply systematic phonics....I'm confused. From their own website:
At any rate, I agree this is the approach for the OP's daughter though I might do a different program as some have success w/ SWR but others find it's not incremental enough I've been told. All About Spelling or Barton Reading are two often mentioned in dyslexia yahoo groups and the like. Good thread for homeschooling options for dyslexia programs and SWR is mentioned I believe (w/caveats I think) along with the programs I mentioned. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forum...&highlight=o-G


I forgot to link in OP--take a look at this site. Lots of really great information on dyslexia which I think is possible w/your daughter. http://www.dys-add.com/symptoms.html

I tend to agree with all this! I would do more phonics, not less.

My dd was in exactly the same place on her 8th birthday - guessing at words based on the first letter; mixing up the order of letters in the word; able to do a workbook but not able to translate that to reading; reading a word on one page and seemingly having no recognition of it on the very next page; loving to be read to etc.... And, we were, at that time using a Waldorf approach, which was nothing more than whole language with some word families thrown in. We made a drastic switch to a systematic phonics approach, and came at it from many directions. We used a number of OG based programs - HOP, ETC, All About Spelling and Cursive First . It took 1 1/2 years of daily practice and slow and steady progress (no overnight fluency here), but she is now reading at a 5th grade level.

So I would not encourage her to continue with the guessing, but rather have her slow down and learn to look at each part of the word. Fluency, up to a certain level, will probably come with time regardless of what you do. But, I expect she will have a stronger base if she teaches her brain to see the phonograms in words so that she has the tools necessary to tackle unfamiliar words. Phonics Pathways also has a good book called Reading Pathways that teaches the eye to move correctly across the page. We also used this to work on fluency.

I would also add that just because a child does not seem to "get" phonics does not mean that phonics is not what they need. Children who read easily seem to get everything easily. It is definitely more of a challenge to teach a child who does not read easily. But, I don't think the goal is to find the method that works easily for each child. For many children, learning to read takes some effort, and the things that they struggle with are the very things they need.

[ktgrok]

I also learned to read by sight reading. I learned phonics AFTER being able to read very well, and have always read above grade level. Now I read faster/more/better than anyone know. And I LOVE reading. I've read things that say that people that learned by sight reading enjoy reading more than those that learned by phonics.

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by ktgrok

I also learned to read by sight reading. I learned phonics AFTER being able to read very well, and have always read above grade level. Now I read faster/more/better than anyone know. And I LOVE reading. I've read things that say that people that learned by sight reading enjoy reading more than those that learned by phonics.

What do you mean when you say you learned to read by sight reading? Do you mean that you learned to read early and easily before phonics were introduced, or that you struggled with reading until you were taught to read with a specifically sight based program (10,000 flashcards or the like).

I think there is a real difference here. We know quite a bit about how the brain works when reading now. We know that the human brain is not hard-wired for reading. Some of us have brains that are naturally efficient at processing written language, and some of us do not. Children whose brains process written language easily and efficiently will usually learn to read early and easily with little effort, and often before the introduction of formal phonics (if they are lucky enough to get phonics training at all). So while it may seem like they are learning to read by sight, they are actually processing the code on the page efficiently and recognizing and learning the phonograms that make up our language, even if they are not yet able to articulate them.

The real question is, is there any evidence that a sight word recognition program can help a struggling reader? What phonics programs and OG programs are doing is teaching the child's brain to efficiently process the written code. Their brains are being taught to do what some brains already do naturally.

[Marimami]

My DD is somewhat similar. Have you had her vision tested? We learned that she needed glasses for reading (bad astigmatism) and since getting them, she has progressed significantly.

But, she still writes far better than she reads. Her guesses at spelling are remarkably good. Somehow, she can write and spell words that I'm not sure she could read independently.

We do have some differences, though. DD can decode just about anything if she takes her time. She's really good at phonemic identification too. Her approach to just guessing seems to be when she feels she needs to do something quickly, for whatever reason. But, sometimes there is a word that she absolutely knows and she just guesses and it's totally off. I just scratch my head.

I was hesitant to buy any curriculum for her, but I have to admit that All About Spelling has been great for her. She loves it. She really loves learning all the rules, and I can see tremendous improvements in her ability.

Does your DD want to learn to read right now? Is she begging for it or is she hesitant? That would probably guide my approach a bit. My DD started decoding/reading on her own when she was fairly young, but in hindsight she was spelling even younger. But, she didn't make huge strides quickly unlike everything else she's learned on her own. She's likely gifted, but her struggles with reading have been weird to me. I do think her vision issues contributed to problems earlier and she lost confidence.

Not sure if any of my thoughts help, but just sharing some of our experiences!

Holli

[AAK]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

Obviously research has never set with a child who looks at you as if you are speaking a foreign language while trying to learn phonics.

Research probably also never had that child cry all the time, declare she hates reading and never wants to read and have you at your wits end.

But I have!

The other poster who mentioned dyslexia may have hit it. Whole word reading is a common strategy for dyslexics. My dd is dyslexic. We had to start by explicitly teaching phonemic awareness. You can do this with the book "Reading Reflex" (which also talks about the whole word reading problem), with the reading program ABeCeDarian, or with the Barton reading program. Barton is considered to be the "ultimate" for tutoring a dyslexic at home. But it is expensive to buy. We have a tutor who will rent it locally, but not everyone does.

And, I really need to find the quote I want about the whole word reading. It wasn't that kids CAN'T learn by whole word. But the percentage that learns that way is a lot less than other methods AND the level of reading was fairly low (3rd/4th grade level) unless the child started implementing some decoding ability.

Here are some great resources for dyslexia:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/dyslexiasupport2/
In the files section, a tutor (certified in a couple methods) compares the phono-graphix (ABeCeDarian/reading reflex) and OG (Barton)

http://www.bartonreading.com/
http://www.dys-add.com/
http://www.american-dyslexia-associa...orksheets.html


Anyways, yes you will find people who learned by whole word. But, I would at least teach phonemic awareness skills before giving up on phonics completely.

Good Luck!

Amy

[One_Girl]

My dd was like this for a while but I found that she would sound out the word quickly if I gave her the initial sound and she has moved past this phase with practice. I also tried having her do some word memorization for the most frequent words but she doesn't do well memorizing words with flashcards. She does memorize words that she has sounded out or encountered frequently when she reads and she has moved up a grade level in the last few months just by reading a book everyday so I am a big believer in practice. I also think it is important not to put pressure on kids to read at a level they aren't ready for. I used to measure my dd by what me and my brother did and that made her very resistant to reading when it didn't come easily right away, but when I stopped and just focused on where she was at the pressure was off of her and that also helped her improve a lot.