Looking for some perspective

[lindalu]

Hi,

I've been reading lots of posts. Obviously, I'm the only one that can decide how to handle my own situation.

In a nutshell, I'm in a marriage that both of us would rather not be in. Two great kids - age 2 and 4.

I am a SAHM with plans to homeschool. A split would radically change mine and childrens lives. Even a separation. If we separate, neither of us (husband or me) can stay in the house we are renting for more than a month or two.

I am trying to think clearly - with head - not just disgruntled heart. I asked Jan Hunt about couples she counsels who have split - how many regret it? She said it is fairly even: half regret, half say should have done it sooner.
So what do you all think?

Especially if you were a SAHM - did a split change your life to the point you might have done things differently?

We are not in a situation of physical abuse - just marital misery.

Have been wanting to post something along these lines for a while. I greatly look forward to your sageness!

Linda

[GoBecGo]

I guess for me i would try to assess how miserable i am versus how miserable i WOULD be outwith the marital misery but in a different life.

When i left XP i lost very little because he was unhelpful, unengaged, unreliable and uncaring. I lost his baseline of earnings (which was sporadic, and unreliable anyway) but it just meant i had to either be on welfare and SAH or work full time (if i'd been with him and he'd been working i could have worked part time). For ME i could deal with the poverty of welfare to do what i wanted - SAH, and it was way way easier than living on in the situation i was in, where i was desperately unhappy.

But i can imagine if i left DH now (which is definitely not on the cards in any way) i would probably have to work full time and put the kids into school/care full-time because i now have more expenses to meet (in those days i rented, now i have a mortgage i'd have to somehow pay). It would depend how unhappy i was, truly.

I felt with XP that ANY amount of hardship was worth it to have even a slim possibility of relieving my misery - i was considering suicide between BFs, it was THAT bad. If my mental health was suffering that badly again i'd leave, i don't want my kids growing up around that, but i would try marriage counselling, individual therapy, whatever else i could think of, before i left my current situation.

[Everrgreen]

My husband and I separated in December after several months of having problems. But, in the past month we have started talking about working on things. It will be a very slow process, but hopefully we will be able to make it work. I have thought a lot about whether or not this is the right decision. It is a very difficult question to answer. There is actually a book I read which I thought was interesting called 'Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay'. We also had some marital counselling and one of the things we did way back was go through a list of factors and rate them all for when we first got married. Then we went through and rated them for now. Our ratings for when we first got married were quite high. He said that in a lot of couples that end up divorcing there numbers are never very high. Basically, if you're marriage was never very good, it's not going to be good. But if it was once good, then there is the possibility that you can get back to that point. But it does take work.

Obviously it depends on what your issues are, but you did say it isn't an abuse situation. I am of the camp that it is always best to work on it - separating is HARD and being a single mom is HARD. And for me personally, knowing that at one point we had a great marriage, it's just been the past year that has been off, makes me hopeful that our marriage can be saved.

[RollerCoasterMama]

I stuck it out for 9 yrs. But I'd been unhappy for 4 or 5 yrs. I waited until the depression over the situation was so bad that it was affecting my ability to parent. At that point, I wasn't sucking it up for my son any more...my own health was negatively impacting him. He was pretty high needs as a 12 - 30 month old.

Other factors:
-I'd always said that when the scales tipped in what was good for my son, I'd leave. My health was one factor, but he was also old enough to start learning the negative patterns my STBX was living his life by. By staying, I condoned it.
-DS was only 3 when we physically moved out. He has had some adjustments, but he's come through things much more quickly than if he were older. I witnessed my nieces go through divorce---the 2 yr old just rolled with it. The 5 yr old had significant adjustments.
-I wasn't giving up much help anyway. His income was never reliable. His help around the house was never reliable. I did most of the childcare, housework and was the primary income. Things are actually better off financially now that we're disentangling the money stuff-- so big difference in situations there. And DS has been in daycare since 9 wks old. So he really hasn't had to adjust in that way. I can see how that would be super difficult!
-We didn't have any violence, fighting, or addictions or infidelities. It's a long story, but the short version is that no one in our family or friends was really when I finally made the decision. But we've managed to remain fair and friendly the whole time and the benefit is flexibility and that he has more one-on-one time with DS than ever in his life and I actually have some free time a few times a month!

But I guess the main thing is...I was miserable for a long long time. I spent a few years not wanting a divorce, but wishing I could "poof" wake up and not be married any more. Until it got to a point where it wasn't a choice any more. I wasn't functioning any more. It was a decision that I had to face and work through.

I don't regret not making the decision sooner. I don't regret the decision at all! It was the hardest thing I've ever done, but we've all survived.

[simplemama32]

I'm kind of in a similar situation (but we've been separated for over a month now), and I'm still mid-decision so maybe won't be much help...

A few of books I've found helpful...

Contemplating Divorce: A Step by Step Guide to Whether to Stay or Go (really thorough in taking you through the process of thinking through all your feelings...I found it pretty neutral, not too pro-divorce or pro-marriage, which is a good thing IMO when you're considering all options)

Should I Stay or Go? (talks about controlled separation)

Fighting for your marriage (still reading this one, and it is very pro-marriage, obviously from the title, but so far the tips on communication and explanations of how typical troubled couples -- ones with no abuse or other major issues, that is -- fall into unhealthy patterns have been good. I think even if H and I end up with a divorce, reading the book will be very helpful for other relationships...and even in our continued co-parenting relationship.)

[lindalu]

I really appreciate your replies and book recommendations. In my ''mind", I am a proponent for marriage. Especially with children. I have read "The Case for Marriage" and Coleman's Imperfect Harmony.

My heart is another matter. H and I almost seem to have personality conflict. Our "ratings" from when we were first married would also be low.

He is a good provider (we are not rich by any means but he works hard and we have what we need materially). We don't have what we used to due to decision for me to stay home.

I wish we could separate at least for a short while. I think it might help things be clearer. Like I mentioned, even doing so would neccessitate a move (long story there). Is it worth the upheaval if we are not sure we are going to stay apart?

I am rambling and my dd is having a melt-down - time to go! Thanks again -

[MsChatsAlot]

When our relationships are struggling, it seems like that's all we ever think about and focus on.

I'd like to suggest something a bit different for awhile...and I realize it is harder to do than it is to suggest.

Stop thinking and focusing about the marriage, the decision, etc. for awhile and just spend some time focusing on yourself. Take your husband out of the equation for a bit.

I'd suggest looking at your life...take account of what works, what you like, what's important to you, your goals, your aspirations, your dreams, your values, your hopes etc. What does that all look like? Are you living your life the way you want and in a way that's aligned with these things? If yes, then I'd suggest focusing on these things for the next few weeks and see how things feel then. If the answer is no, then I'd start focusing on these things and seeing what you can do to start moving in the direction of the life you really want to be living.

Being in a period of decision making feels stagnant. Taking action feels good. Since taking action here regarding your marriage and moving out is so big and affects so many people, and you don't seem 100% committed to either decision yet, I'd suggest taking action a different way (focusing on yourself and your dreams) to get you moving in a direction that feels good.

When you start moving in the direction of your life (having taken him out of the equation) you'll likely either find that you gain more clarity and understanding about your marriage and opportunities will pop up that you couldn't see when you were clouded just thinking about how things aren't working. And, no matter what happens, if you're doing what you can to live the life you really want your marriage will either improve as an indirect result or you will both realize it's time to move on.

Whatever you do, whatever happens...I am wishing you peace & love.

[simplemama32]

Would you and your husband consider marriage counseling? With the right counselor, that might be a good way to either gain some clarity about your situation without separating, or (assuming you are both willing) to work on improving your relationship.

I hesitate to suggest to anyone what they should or shouldn't do, because everyone's situation is so different, and I don't know yours. For *me*, I chose separation as a last resort after trying a lot of other things, and from a need to remove myself (and DS) from a house full of depression and negativity. I just couldn't think clearly anymore...I'm just now feeling like I'm starting to "wake up" and be able to think rationally, if that makes sense. We are lucky to have my very supportive parents living nearby, so DS and I are staying with them for awhile. I have no idea what would have happened if they weren't around...we live in a rural area so there aren't a lot of temporary housing options other than hotels, and I couldn't afford my part of our current bills plus a rental anyway.

A few questions I've asked myself, and that pushed me to initiate the separation are... 1) How do I feel about the current situation in our marriage possibly staying the same, and living this way for the next 40-50 years?, 2) Do I really think it's best for DS to grow up watching the way his parents currently treat each other and interact?, and 3) Life is precious and short. Do I truly want to spend my life this way (assuming no improvement, change, etc.) just for the sake of staying married?

Personally, I would rather this separation and possible divorce, or separation and eventual reconciliation, happen now, before my son gets much older (he just turned 2).

If you decide to separate, do either you or your H have family or close friends you could stay with for a few weeks? Or could you and your kids go on a short trip to visit relatives? Maybe even a few days apart could give you a little room to breathe and think.

Best of luck to you...

[lindalu]

Thanks simple and chats- appreciate your thoughts.

You know, in one of the books I mentioned it talked about a survey that was done on people who felt they were miserably married. They surveyed them again after 5 years (or was it 10?) - the ones who had stay married were now rating themselves as happily married. There was not counseling or any other events to account for the change. With time - situations had evolved into better ones. It was interesting to consider.

We went briefly to counseling. I know we should try again. It got discouraging to me. I had really worked hard to find a counselor who I thought would be understanding of some attachment parenting things. Husband focuses lots on my relationship with the children as source of our problems - I do not believe this is the root at all. In fact, were it not for children, I am sure we would have parted long ago. But in our last counseling session, counselor was basically criticizing me for allowing children into my bed, etc. I was really angry. Also, she had forgotten some of the key things we had talked about - it was really awkward. I know we need to find a different one. But, my husband's take on it is, "see, as soon as you don't like what someone is saying, you are out of there."

I truly think right now that individual counseling would be better for both of us. H has a couple of serious issues that need addressed. I think he may be starting to realize it.....

I asked him today to try to leave the children out of our marriage problems - for instance, to say, "I need more alone time with you." rather than, "you spend too much time with the children". There are things that I do not agree with as far as his parenting, but I do not attack him on these as far as our marriage on.

Working on things for me is important. I know I have way too little time for myself. I do resent that my marriage depletes my tank rather than filling it up -
Trying to focus on the positive can be so hard.

[doubledutch]

i agree that individual counseling is a good idea. that way you are both getting to a healthier place, which is helpful no matter what course your marriage takes.

i'm surprised about your marriage counseling experience. i have only gone to one session but i didn't think placing blame was the counselor's role. that seems weird and wrong. i wouldn't go back either.

[lindalu]

I didn't think such was a counselors role either. But, when I was looking for a counselor, I was calling around and asking questions. At time, husband was livid that (then) 3 year old was nursing. So, I was asking counselors how they felt about that.

I was amazed at those who revealed they didn't agree with it and that they wouldn't be able to be neutral.

I don't care about how a counselor personally feels about nursing or co-sleeping, etc. A GOOD one should be able to keep personal opinion out of it. But, not to be.

[lindalu]

and is there any chance he would "get" kids?

H. is being very vile right now. After a bad argument on Saturday morning - one which happened partly in front of children - something we try to never let happen - I have been trying to stay to myself. It is very clear to me that this is not working for me - yet, I am not saying I will quit forever. I just need some time of peace.

H. is being confrontational - bringing up things to upset me. "I want that dog gone NOW." (a stray puppy we brought home a few weeks ago - kids and I in love with)- "WHEN" do you plan on kids sleeping in their new room (I re-did a room for them to share recently- not totally finished - dd is almost 3 and has pretty much always slept with me) - I DOn"T want them sleeping with you anymore!"

There have been times he has been reasonable when we have discussed a separation - has said it is important for me to continue to stay home with them - he would make sure that could happen financially, etc. This is not one of those times.

I was thinking that we could use the summer season for me to spend some time away - we could both think, talk, and see how it feels. Even recently, we discussed the children and I renting a small cabin in the mountains for a month (unlikely we could afford) - H was ok with. Albeit, we weren't saying that would be a "separation". Just some time for me. There have been lots of family tragedies lately and not so far in the past - most recently my brother suffered a major debilitating stroke and my siister-in-law died. I am watching my parents try to care for my brother - it is all overwhelming and heartbreaking. I am feeling like I have to do something to charge my batteries.

Anyway, H was saying ridiculous things last night - he has some real emotional and maturity issues - I said I really need to leave for a while. He says FINE, BUT YOU ARE NOT TAKING MY KIDS. He went on about if we split, I won't get kids. Even in a separation. I tried to reason and say, "listen, we both want what is best for them, you know it would devastate them to not be with their mother." He indicated he no longer feels them being with me is the best.

I know this is all coming from his anger, immaturity, mood-disorder, etc. but still. He is extrememly narcissistic and I could really see him trying to take children away. Since I have been a SAHM for five years now - would a judge view him as the better caregiver?? I am educated - but not established on my own.

I can't believe it is coming to this. My dreams of home schooling going down the drain. I could "suck it up" and pretend to be ok with him, quit co-sleeping, quit nursing, etc. If that would truly "fix" things as he thinks, it might be worth considering. But it won't. As soon as one demand is met, he will find another to insist is the problem.

I truly believe we might be able to be friends and parent together apart better than together.

I know this is rambling. I thank anyone who has muddled through it. I am just sitting here with knots in my stomach thinking "what if my children were taken from me?" And H. would use whatever if he was in the right mood. I am thinking with the right judge, things like BF and co-sleeping could actually be used against me.

[carriemama]

Oh, mama, big hugs to you. The worst part about all of it is the not knowing what could or will happen. The best possible thing you could do right now is contact a lawyer for a consultation to find out what the process is like where you are, what your rights are, what would and would not happen. Many lawyers will offer a free initial consultation, and there are also free legal clinics that can help you start to understand it all. I'm not a lawyer or judge, but I highly doubt the kids would be taken from you. Hang in there -- I really think that getting some information will make you feel SO much better and will make everything more clear.

[violet_]

Most counselors will not be helpful. You may get lucky and find a good one, but they are rare. And most, especially if you go the individual counseling route, will actually encourage divorce. So, if you do want to save your marriage, I'd be very careful and ask lots of screening questions to make sure they are the type to help people stay instead of push them apart.

[simplemama32]

Oh, sending lots of *hugs* and strong thoughts to you!

My H can be somewhat like that...with him, it is pretty much his hurt feelings and temper talking, but sometimes I worry that those emotions will lead his actions, rather than his head. Hopefully, some more experienced mamas on here will come along and give you better advice.

For me, for my peace of mind....and just to be on the safe side, (and because I've heard too many horror stories of "perfectly nice" spouses turning hateful once a divorce is under way) I've already chosen a lawyer and had an initial meeting to find out my possible rights, get questions answered, and that sort of thing.

Many lawyers do a free or low-cost initial consultation...is there anyway you could do that? I'd also be discreetly gathering all the necessary financial documents, birth certificates, keepsakes, etc., on the chance that you may need to leave quickly one day.

With that said, once he calms down, you may very well be able to have a rational conversation with him and work some of these things out. My philosophy is hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, you know?

I wouldn't think a judge would deny either parent unless there was some pretty condemning evidence. If you've been the primary caregiver and are physically capable of working, then I think that's in your favor. But then, whether it's fair or not, I know other BFing and co-sleeping mothers have not been looked upon favorably by judges. Personally, I can't see where that would affect custody. If overnights with the father are part of the visitation schedule, then adjustments to the children's routine would probably need to be made to accomodate that. Remember that custody and visitation are two different things, and custody can be broken down into physical custody (primary residence) and legal custoday (decision-making rights).

A separation may be a different story. In my state, there is no such thing as legal separation. Until we are officially divorced, H and I have equal rights to our son. He could take him back at any time, and there is nothing I could do about it (except follow him back home, which I would do). With a legal separation, I think you can arrange temporary custoday.

Hang in there.

[lindalu]

My state does not have a legal separation either. Kids would be ok without BF for the weekend - youngest wouldn't like it - but would survive.

I know my H would co-sleep with kids if they were at "his place". He doesn't object to it inherently - just to them sleeping with me.

He thinks I have conditioned them to be too "emotionally dependent" upon me. His phrase of choice. Ok, here I am confused. I am a very attached parent. But balaced, I believe. Just yesterday I talked to my H about kids going to "camp" one week this summer. It is four hours a day - just 3 and 4 year olds. They could be together - it is in the gymnastics center they are familar with. They do take some small trips to water park, etc. I was surprised I was considering - I do have concerns, but all in all, I think it would be a great experience for all of us. H is totally opposed to. He is like, "are you crazy?" He has no comfort level with them doing something like this. I don't get it. He doesn't like them being with me so much - even recently told me he would try to get custody of them if we split - but is not comfortable with the little camp sceanrio I presented? He is the one who says "put them in school" - but he cannot even consider this? I don't get it.

Ironic. Almost a year ago I was planning to go talk to a lawyer. Just to get info. as some of you suggested. Then my brother had a major stroke and everything got all topsy turvy. Then H. started traveling extensively with his work - it was so much easier to handle our situation with him gone. The traveling has about ceased. Here I am again needing to get advice.

We are in such a bad place. Yet, he is still planning on going to some shows we had planned to go to. My heart just is not into the efforts of child-care, etc. for a "date night" with someone I don't want to spend time with. But, then I am the bad guy if I try to explain such. Sheesh.

[haumea11]

Splitting up with my son's father was the best thing for both of us. We're both happier. Misery means things should change. I regret that I lost my entire 30s to unhappiness. But we did manage to create an awesome little boy together, so all was not lost.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by lindalu

My state does not have a legal separation either. Kids would be ok without BF for the weekend - youngest wouldn't like it - but would survive.

I know my H would co-sleep with kids if they were at "his place". He doesn't object to it inherently - just to them sleeping with me.

He thinks I have conditioned them to be too "emotionally dependent" upon me. His phrase of choice. Ok, here I am confused. I am a very attached parent. But balaced, I believe. Just yesterday I talked to my H about kids going to "camp" one week this summer. It is four hours a day - just 3 and 4 year olds. They could be together - it is in the gymnastics center they are familar with. They do take some small trips to water park, etc. I was surprised I was considering - I do have concerns, but all in all, I think it would be a great experience for all of us. H is totally opposed to. He is like, "are you crazy?" He has no comfort level with them doing something like this. I don't get it. He doesn't like them being with me so much - even recently told me he would try to get custody of them if we split - but is not comfortable with the little camp sceanrio I presented? He is the one who says "put them in school" - but he cannot even consider this? I don't get it.

Ironic. Almost a year ago I was planning to go talk to a lawyer. Just to get info. as some of you suggested. Then my brother had a major stroke and everything got all topsy turvy. Then H. started traveling extensively with his work - it was so much easier to handle our situation with him gone. The traveling has about ceased. Here I am again needing to get advice.

We are in such a bad place. Yet, he is still planning on going to some shows we had planned to go to. My heart just is not into the efforts of child-care, etc. for a "date night" with someone I don't want to spend time with. But, then I am the bad guy if I try to explain such. Sheesh.

He sounds a bit like my XP - who said i MUST put our DD into nursery or she'd have no social development, but the next time i talked to him about it some women in England (we're in Scotland) had been found sexually abusing kids, one of the women was a nursery carer and was abusing and photographing the abuse in the nursery, and suddenly i was a terrible mother for even considering it. For my XP it is not about the nursery, it is about the control. He wants to control things, what he controls and the choices he makes are pretty arbitrary, he just wants the control for himself. Like when i was 39week with DD and on mat. leave i wasn't allowed to go for a walk in case someone was laying in wait for a pregnant woman "to rape" - i am a rape and abuse survivor so that was a MAJOR button for him to press, but he did press it. He also wouldn't let me have a chair in our bedroom (where my piano and desk were) because "you'll put clothes on it and make a mess". I left him of course!

[lindalu]

Yes, thank you. He is controlling - but it is hard for me to look at him like that because he can come across as quite passive. I truly never experienced that term - passive aggressive - until our relationship.

Yes, it can be arbitrary. Quite a few months ago - he was able to admit something to me in a moment of rare honesty. He told me the things he rides me about so much - BF, co-sleeping, - really don't bother him as long as things are "ok" with us. (OK- I have come to understand - means his sexual needs being addressed - here is the catch - I am convinced he is a sex addict - so they are never met and trying to do so adds to my misery.) At that point, I guess I came to an internal decision to not sacrifice what I feel strongly in my heart about children on his demands - they would simply change as soon as one set is met. This has been a true internal struggle for me because I do believe it is important to respect H views.

It is hard for me to even leave kids with him so I can get some much needed alone time. Or to ask him to help with bedtime, etc. If I am gone, and the kids are fussy at bedtime because they are used to me - instead of pulling out some "Daddy tricks" to make things better, he just becomes angry and says "See how they have been conditioned! @$&*! They will be crying saying "I want mommy-" He tends to respond, "There is no mommy." or "You have to realize you have more than one parent!" (Is he expecting our two year old to say, "gee thanks, Dad, for clarifying that for me?!) I really think some of my parenting is "compensatory" - trying to make up for HIM. He is not horrible - I know he loves his children - but he is so narcissistic (identified by a counselor in first 30 minutes) it is hard for him to ever put their needs above his. Family vacation? He is off doing his own thing. I have to coax him to spend time with kids. He actually almost didn't go on last vacation because he said "how much work it was. wasn't really like a vacation for him." I lost it! I told him even though we were on vacation, I would still be cooking, washing clothes, cleaning, getting up in night with kids, devoting days to them - etc. He had never considered that! And this was a vacation in a beautiful ocean front condo owned by family - FREE. Wow - makes me so mad to even think about it. Then, he ruined vacation by going into a major funk because he had thought a vacation would mean more sex - while I was falling asleep before head hit pillow..... Sorry, now I am venting - didn't mean to go on rant-