Suggestions for a logical consequence

[spmamma]

I'm working really hard to incorporate natural and logical consequences into my everyday parenting. I'm a bit at a loss, though, as to what the logical consequence would be for screaming at me or DH.

DD is about to turn 3 and is in the habit of screeching at DH and I (you can tell she's frustrated or angry) when she doesn't like what we've asked her to do. For the life of me I can't figure out what a natural or logical consequence should be. Just telling her that we don't yell at each other in our house is useless.

Any suggestions?

[NellieKatz]

My first thought was that consquences aren't natural or logical if you have to think to come up with them. Am I right about that? I just woke up and my coffee hasn't fully kicked in yet.

My second thought, about what you might do, is to fail to respond or hear when they talk that way. Since you cannot control what others do, but can only control what YOU do, that seems the most natural and logical. Just refuse to communicate with them, acknowledge them, etc. (and tell them why if they don't seem to know at the moment) until they can ask with words in a civil voice. Just go about your business as though you cannot hear. Do acknowledge their anger of course, if there is anger there which they are trying to express. But insist that they express it in a way that doesn't disrupt the peace. Maybe give them an example of how.

And do you guys EVER yell at the kids? Or is the no-yelling house policy followed consistently. They're getting the idea of yelling from somewhere. Maybe from TV? Other kids? Or maybe it just feels good to them, physically, to let it all out. Usually it's easier to deal with a behavior if you understand the root of it.

Good luck!

[SallyN]

ditto nelliekatz.

[spmamma]

Originally Posted by NellieKatz

My first thought was that consquences aren't natural or logical if you have to think to come up with them. Am I right about that? I just woke up and my coffee hasn't fully kicked in yet.

My second thought, about what you might do, is to fail to respond or hear when they talk that way. Since you cannot control what others do, but can only control what YOU do, that seems the most natural and logical. Just refuse to communicate with them, acknowledge them, etc. (and tell them why if they don't seem to know at the moment) until they can ask with words in a civil voice. Just go about your business as though you cannot hear. Do acknowledge their anger of course, if there is anger there which they are trying to express. But insist that they express it in a way that doesn't disrupt the peace. Maybe give them an example of how.

And do you guys EVER yell at the kids? Or is the no-yelling house policy followed consistently. They're getting the idea of yelling from somewhere. Maybe from TV? Other kids? Or maybe it just feels good to them, physically, to let it all out. Usually it's easier to deal with a behavior if you understand the root of it.

Good luck!

You've made a good point. I kept trying to think of a logical consequence that I guess there probably isn't one if I've been struggling so much!

At this point, I've been doing what you suggested: telling her that we don't talk to each other like that in our house and asking her to voice her frustration/anger with words. I do try to give suggestions as to what she can say - when I remember to do so.

As to whether or not we're a yelling household - no, we don't yell at each other or the kids. She doesn't watch TV, either. I think it may stem from the fact that she was a late talker, so for a long time she was used to getting her point across with shrieks. She's been talking in sentences for about six months now, but I'm sure she still sometimes reverts to what's easy.

I suppose I've just been frustrated lately because nothing I've tried seems to be helping. Perhaps I just need to give it more time.

[NellieKatz]

Yeah, maybe just more time. Gentle modeling/correcting that does not come across as criticism. Like, less of this "please don't shriek, it hurts my ears" and more of this "I bet you wish we could hear you better; try a respectful voice, like this: [then show her the way you'd rather she asked]

This way you are sincerely teaching. Not admonishing, not being irritated, but understanding that she has a need to be heard but hasn't mastered the socially-OK way of doing it yet. It's a fine line, this "ignoring" thing I recommended. I mean, we don't want to be rude and jerky about it. It's not like angry ignoring. It's more like making sure the "payoff" doesn't come when the child is doing something you are hoping to reduce (i.e. yelling). If a person gets their payoff, they will keep doing something. Now I know she is not a lab rat whose external behavior you are trying to modify as though she's just inconvenient. I know that. But if something is not working for your household (i.e. shrieking kids in a house where peace is valued), it's important to find a way of meeting ALL your needs in a way that works for all of you. The kids' needs can most certainly be met by not yelling at you for things.

[chiefmir]

for us, a logical consequence for screaming at someone or other inappropriate social behavior is that the person probably won't want to be with you. When my DD was 3 (she's 4.75 now, so the "behavior" issues have gotten different, but the principal is the same) I remind her of the rules (i.e. "It is important to talk to others nicely if you want them to hear you and to understand you").. if the behavior doesn't stop, I'd move on to the "consequence" (i.e. "I don't want to be around/play with someone who is talking to me in a mean/disrespectful way. I'm going to go start dinner/check my email/sweep/read the paper now... when you are ready to treat me more nicely let me know and I'll be ready to come back and play with you again."

[kavamamakava]

Originally Posted by spmamma

I'm working really hard to incorporate natural and logical consequences into my everyday parenting. I'm a bit at a loss, though, as to what the logical consequence would be for screaming at me or DH.

DD is about to turn 3 and is in the habit of screeching at DH and I (you can tell she's frustrated or angry) when she doesn't like what we've asked her to do. For the life of me I can't figure out what a natural or logical consequence should be. Just telling her that we don't yell at each other in our house is useless.

Any suggestions?

My sister taught me to lower my voice instead of raise it. It really works sometimes. So maybe you can try going up close to your daughter and making eye contact and whispering something soothing to help calm her. Like in a whisper voice you can say something like "oh baby, ow my ears hurt from the screeching. Can you tell me or point to what is wrong?" I think part of it is the surprise factor because you've drastically changed the dynamic of the interaction.
I actually used it for myself because I sometimes do yell when frustrated so I would talk in a lower toned voice instead of raising my voice.

[NellieKatz]

oooh, good idea!

[spmamma]

These are all wonderful ideas. Thank you!!

[LCBMAX]

Taking notes on all of the above. I especially like "I bet you wish we could hear you better..."

That said, I think that for a family that teaches non-violence, it's especially important that kids have "permission" to let their feelings out via voice and non-harmful body movements. Screeching, yelling, stomping, jumping -- anger and frustration have to be felt fully in the body before we can learn to manage them in the mind or heart.

Husband and I were both raised to be fairly contained (him alot, me more than most) so my son doesn't get good role models for letting it out - I've been trying to learn from my son that letting it out is natural, and when I have frustration I try to manage it out loud, adjusted for maturity:

like him I'll make a non verbal noise "aaarrrrggghhhhhhh" (but try not to sound scary)
that gets his attention and then I can explain "I'm feeling so frustrated because I want to make dinner but I forgot to get groceries!"
more "aaarrrrggghhhh" some silly stomping, and then a solution
"hey, should we go get groceries right now? it could be a fun adventure!"

We just don't yell at each other, but more and more we are letting our son hear our stressed-with-each-other conversations so he gets a glimpse of emotional problem solving.

Well, I guess this has gone OT - sorry. I'm so glad to read everyone's ideas.

[NellieKatz]

You raise a really good point about the letting-out of feelings. It's a tough one. How about the "non violent communication" method?
1) State what you observed ("I noticed you screamed loud at me just now; you sound angry")
2) State how it made you feel ("It startled me and I feel attacked")
3) State how the feeling relates to a need that you have ("I have a need to feel safe and peaceful, so...")
4) State your request ("do you think you could use a softer voice next time?")

And then maybe help her find OK ways to describe her anger. "I can help you think of some great words to use when you are angry. You can describe your angry feeling, like 'I am so angry I could blow my top like a volcano!' or maybe something funny, like "I'm so mad I could stomp a tomato and turn it into ketchup!" (this could elicit giggles)

Or suggest "Maybe you could say excuse me and go scream into a pillow, like this" (then demonstrate it for her). "See how you can scream but it goes into the pillow and doesn't sound so loud?"

Just feeling around here for solutions.... :-)