Am I over or under reacting? 10YO, friends, HOA (Update post #59, HOA calls me back) - Page 3

[Sharon, RN]

Originally Posted by ramama

I think that y'all need to read, or re-read, the OP's posts. Her kid was not trespassing, and the photos were not of any specific wrongdoing on her DS's part. Geez.

The picture-taking creeps me waaaay out. I am not a shrinking violet, though, and I likely would stand outside his house on a pubic sidewalk with a camera and take pictures of his house, and take pictures of him when he takes out the trash, checks the mail, mows his lawn, etc. (I know we don't know it's a "him", just didn't want to say him/her, she/he, his/her a million times).

Yes, the OP's DS was in a public place, but people can have a reasonable expectation of privacy even in public places. There is a fine line between photography and surveillance, and since the HOA said that they were "watching" him and that video was taken too, I think this borders on surveillance especially since this monitoring appears to be endorsed by the HOA rather than the rogue actions of an individual. I think it's completely reasonable for people to want to exist in public without having their actions recorded covertly.

(I don't know how to do the multi-quote thing, sorry!)

Ramama, what is the difference between photography and surveillance? Is it just wrong if it's covert? Like, if this man (according to ds, a man lives there) stands on the sidewalk recording them, is it ok? Or is that harrassement? I kind of think the idea that a person could be recording/photographing everything you do outside with the anticipation you'll do something is wrong. Because that's what the letter said, that he's "being watched."

Of course, if my DS was trampeling all over his property or damaging his property, or damaging common area property, and he wanted evidene, I think that would be different.

[choli]

Originally Posted by Sharon, RN

I don't really know anything about this neighbor. My ds says it's a man, and that no children live there. I have never seen a car in his driveway (maybe he just keeps it in the garage), and frankly thought the house was empty for a long time.

I told DS he would have to stay by our house. It's a small sub-division (of a very large neighborhood), and unfortunately his friend's backyard is directly across the street from this guy's house. So, if his friend can't come over here to play, then he won't really have anyone to play with, since I can't have him going over there now.

Well, I think I'm going to leave the neighbor alone. (Really would like to have angry, intimidating ex-husband come and talk to him, but... sigh... that won't help. ) I'm hearing impaired, and it's hard for me to use the phone, but I'll have dh call the HOA rep (the one who sent the letter, who works for the management company and does NOT live here) again and hopefully she'll call back. She's going to get to explain to us how my ds is supposed to play. That should go well. Then I'll take it from there.

I wouldn't make my kids stay by our house because of that letter. What, your DS should be under house arrest because if he goes outside he is "loitering"? I'd just tell him to stay off other people's property, as you have already, and to be mindful not to be a nuisance.

My guess is that your neighbor was ticked to see kids from a different part of the neighborhood playing, and that was what sent him off. I wouldn't feel any obligation to help him to "identify" those kids - it's not a gated community, right?

I just don't understand the reactions to having photoghraphs taken, it wouldn't bother me at all.

[nextcommercial]

Originally Posted by Sharon, RN

Well, I think I'm going to leave the neighbor alone. (Really would like to have angry, intimidating ex-husband come and talk to him, but... sigh... that won't help. ) I'm hearing impaired, and it's hard for me to use the phone, but I'll have dh call the HOA rep (the one who sent the letter, who works for the management company and does NOT live here) again and hopefully she'll call back. She's going to get to explain to us how my ds is supposed to play. That should go well. Then I'll take it from there.

Don't forget. This HOA is supposed to protect you and your kids. They are part of the community too. It's not OK to harass you or your kids.

They need to understand everything... not just some cranky hermit's version of the story.

[ramama]

Originally Posted by Sharon, RN

(I don't know how to do the multi-quote thing, sorry!)

Ramama, what is the difference between photography and surveillance? Is it just wrong if it's covert? Like, if this man (according to ds, a man lives there) stands on the sidewalk recording them, is it ok? Or is that harrassement? I kind of think the idea that a person could be recording/photographing everything you do outside with the anticipation you'll do something is wrong. Because that's what the letter said, that he's "being watched."

Of course, if my DS was trampeling all over his property or damaging his property, or damaging common area property, and he wanted evidene, I think that would be different.

I was just trying to explain a gut feeling that this is just different from simple photography, that it's something else that I can't quite describe. I don't know the legal stuff. But, when you go into a store, you can assume that employees will be watching you, or at least aware of you, but if they have video cameras, they need to post a sign saying so. It's just different to me that they are "watching" your son and take paparazzi-style photographs of him from a hidden location, and video too, then print and distribute the photographs without your permission.

What your neighbor did is just creepy, and wrong, and totally outside the expected behavior of a presumably rational adult. To me, really, this all borders on stalking.

[nextcommercial]

Originally Posted by Sharon, RN

Ramama, what is the difference between photography and surveillance? Is it just wrong if it's covert? Like, if this man (according to ds, a man lives there) stands on the sidewalk recording them, is it ok? Or is that harrassement? .

To me, it just seems like an overreaction. He feels justified in his overreaction.... and that can be scary. If the kids weren't really doing anything unusual, but, he feels like they were, he might also feel justified in hurting someone who is bothering him.

If he's disgruntled, it's best just to stay away from him.

[Sharon, RN]

Originally Posted by choli

I just don't understand the reactions to having photoghraphs taken, it wouldn't bother me at all.

Choli,

I think last week I would have completely agreed with you. But then I got pictures in the mail of my ds fixing a bike chain and drinking a soda, along with a threatening (and official) letter about how he's "being watched," and I cannot even put into words how uncomfortable it makes me feel. I have a knot in my chest every time he goes out now.

Even the pictures of the children commiting the acts in the complaint make me completely uncomfortable.

The other children live a couple of streets over. And, no, I'm not going to go all Nancy Drew and hunt them down for this dude and the HOA.

And I would really like to thank everybody who has participated in this thread with me. It's good to have some other perspectives!

[lorijds]

Thank god we live in a dumpy little part of town. Everyone does their own thing, drives slowly to avoid all the kids running wild in the street, and accepts that a (wo)man's home is their castle. I want to paint my house fire-engine red? Sure, it's my house. My kids want to LOITER in the street? Fine, they'll be able to hang with the all the other kids who run around. A ball goes into my yard? Come and get it.

If I have a problem with you, I'll tell you. If you mess up my yard royally, you AND your parents will hear about it directly from me. Want to pick a flower from my garden for your mom? You know you're welcome, I've known you all your life and you've been picking flowers out of my yard since you were able to walk. I make sure to plant extras, just for you kids.

It's so sad that some neighborhoods are so unwelcoming. My neighborhood may be poor and dumpy, but I know all the kids, they know me, and we all keep a gentle eye out on one another. If someone doesn't mow their lawn, it's their issue (unless of course they *can't*, and then your neighbor will likely mow it). My neighbor has chickens, ducks, and two broken down cars in his yard. The ducks are hilarious, they are like the neighborhood laugh track. The cars are playground equipment for the neighborhood kids.

Thank god we don't have a tyrannical HOA, taking pictures and keeping those damn kids in line. How dare those kids think they can be outside of their pen, I mean lawn. You must be a terrible parent, letting that child off it's leash like that. I hope you beat him and sent him to bed without supper for his transgressions. That'll learn him.

[Sarah W]

I think that most of the things were ridiculous, with the exception of being in other people's lawns. We paid $2k for our front lawn to be landscaped and I don't want other people running around on it.

I think that for the most part, any one of the other things would have been a minor nuisance, but since all of the things were done in the span of one afternoon it was more of an issue.

As for taking pics, I don't see it as being creepy. He had an issue (and an overrreaction) but had he not had pics, there would have been a bunch of "that isn't MY child!". I'm not saying by you, but how else could he identify them to complain if he didn't know who they were?

[chiromamma]

Originally Posted by lorijds

Thank god we live in a dumpy little part of town. Everyone does their own thing, drives slowly to avoid all the kids running wild in the street, and accepts that a (wo)man's home is their castle. I want to paint my house fire-engine red? Sure, it's my house. My kids want to LOITER in the street? Fine, they'll be able to hang with the all the other kids who run around. A ball goes into my yard? Come and get it.

If I have a problem with you, I'll tell you. If you mess up my yard royally, you AND your parents will hear about it directly from me. Want to pick a flower from my garden for your mom? You know you're welcome, I've known you all your life and you've been picking flowers out of my yard since you were able to walk. I make sure to plant extras, just for you kids.

It's so sad that some neighborhoods are so unwelcoming. My neighborhood may be poor and dumpy, but I know all the kids, they know me, and we all keep a gentle eye out on one another. If someone doesn't mow their lawn, it's their issue (unless of course they *can't*, and then your neighbor will likely mow it). My neighbor has chickens, ducks, and two broken down cars in his yard. The ducks are hilarious, they are like the neighborhood laugh track. The cars are playground equipment for the neighborhood kids.

Thank god we don't have a tyrannical HOA, taking pictures and keeping those damn kids in line. How dare those kids think they can be outside of their pen, I mean lawn. You must be a terrible parent, letting that child off it's leash like that. I hope you beat him and sent him to bed without supper for his transgressions. That'll learn him.

Well said.
This is exactly how it is in my neighborhood and I LOVE it. I wouldn't use the term poor and dumpy but we are not in one of the "coveted neighborhoods" in our town. I live in a 1964 ranch that needs improvements but I also have the best neighbors. Lots of kids. Parents know eachother and the kids. We also have our beloved neighborhood crumudgeon who yells at the kids when he sees them do something dangerous and they listen. He also gives out full sized candy bars at Halloween!

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Sarah W

As for taking pics, I don't see it as being creepy. He had an issue (and an overrreaction) but had he not had pics, there would have been a bunch of "that isn't MY child!". I'm not saying by you, but how else could he identify them to complain if he didn't know who they were?

I think it's totally creepy. My 11 year old DD runs around with her friends from the neighborhood and it would completely freak me out if some man took pictures of them. It's creepy!

I don't know what I would do, but I think the neighbor is a creep.

Besdies, it is VERY easy to take a photo, play around with it in photoshop, and make it a different photo. I think it is weird and rude to take photos of children that you don't know.

[TCMoulton]

Our HOA requests pictures when reporting a violation involving a neighbor whenever possible so that they can see exactly what happened and that it isn't a baseless accusation made by a disgruntled neighbor.

As far as the pictures, since it is obvious that they were taken to prove his point that the kids were playing somewhere he felt they should not have been they wouldn't bother me in so far as being inappropriate, it might annoy me if they were of my kids just playing like normal kids do but I would not find the pictures themselves inappropriate or violating.

[raksmama]

Sounds like a neighborhood that I'd like!

[QUOTE=lorijds;15395362]Thank god we live in a dumpy little part of town. Everyone does their own thing, drives slowly to avoid all the kids running wild in the street, and accepts that a (wo)man's home is their castle. I want to paint my house fire-engine red? Sure, it's my house. My kids want to LOITER in the street? Fine, they'll be able to hang with the all the other kids who run around. A ball goes into my yard? Come and get it.
If I have a problem with you, I'll tell you. If you mess up my yard royally, you AND your parents will hear about it directly from me. Want to pick a flower from my garden for your mom? You know you're welcome, I've known you all your life and you've been picking flowers out of my yard since you were able to walk. I make sure to plant extras, just for you kids.
It's so sad that some neighborhoods are so unwelcoming. My neighborhood may be poor and dumpy, but I know all the kids, they know me, and we all keep a gentle eye out on one another. If someone doesn't mow their lawn, it's their issue (unless of course they *can't*, and then your neighbor will likely mow it). My neighbor has chickens, ducks, and two broken down cars in his yard. The ducks are hilarious, they are like the neighborhood laugh track. The cars are playground equipment for the neighborhood kids.
QUOTE]

[raksmama]

Originally Posted by TCMoulton

Our HOA requests pictures when reporting a violation involving a neighbor whenever possible so that they can see exactly what happened and that it isn't a baseless accusation made by a disgruntled neighbor.
As far as the pictures, since it is obvious that they were taken to prove his point that the kids were playing somewhere he felt they should not have been they wouldn't bother me in so far as being inappropriate, it might annoy me if they were of my kids just playing like normal kids do but I would not find the pictures themselves inappropriate or violating.

If this neighbour had already told the kids not to go in his yard and on his lawn,
If he had already complained first to the OP and that had not worked and he complained to the HOA and no one then believed him then, and only then it might have been appropriate.
The OP’s son was not even doing any of the things the neighbour has complaining about and she has to live across the street from this neighbour. I think he, the neighbour needs to have it made known to him that he should not take any more pictures of her son.

[feest]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Actually those metal boxes from the electrical company are not toys for the kids. They contain electrical equipment that allow easier access to the neighbourhood's power source. While they are generally safe, if they have been damaged in any way (and you may not see the damage) they pose a serious risk to people who get to close.

I would advise teaching your children to stay away from and off of them.

ETA: If you do notice any kind of damage, or the door appears to be open from warping or whatever, contact the power company immediately!

I went to school with a boy who lost both arms almost up the the elbows when he was 4-5 because of one of those boxes. The men who were working on it left it open while they went to lunch and he wandered over and touched something inside and it burned his arms so bad they couldn't save them. He was lucky to have lived at all.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

I think it's totally creepy. My 11 year old DD runs around with her friends from the neighborhood and it would completely freak me out if some man took pictures of them. It's creepy!

I don't know what I would do, but I think the neighbor is a creep.

Besdies, it is VERY easy to take a photo, play around with it in photoshop, and make it a different photo. I think it is weird and rude to take photos of children that you don't know.

Taking pictures of someone else kids specifically, without permission is always creepy in my book. No matter what your purpose. It just gives me a really icky feeling when people do that.

[Laggie]

Originally Posted by lorijds

Thank god we live in a dumpy little part of town. Everyone does their own thing, drives slowly to avoid all the kids running wild in the street, and accepts that a (wo)man's home is their castle. I want to paint my house fire-engine red? Sure, it's my house. My kids want to LOITER in the street? Fine, they'll be able to hang with the all the other kids who run around. A ball goes into my yard? Come and get it.

I want to live where you live!

OP, I think you should let your son play where he usually does, except being more careful to stay off Mr. Grumpypants' property. Making your son stay in your yard only is validating his baseless complaint. Does the HOA have meetings? I would be sure to attend the next one and give them a piece of my mind!

[Proxi]

Originally Posted by Sharon, RN

Riding their bikes in the street.
Sitting on the sidewalk in front of someone's driveway. (Not on the person's property.)
Riding their bikes in other people's driveway.
Riding their bikes on people's lawns. (No damage, not muddy, no tracks, just actually doing it.)
Stepping on people's lawns. (OMG!)
Leaving a skateboard out overnight in the common area. (I know for a fact this was not ours.)
Tossing that bike tire down the street.
"Fighting." (According to my ds, 2 of the kids did get into some kind of altercation at the end of the day, but it was short-lived.)
Sitting on an electrical box, a big green metal thing. (No one was doing any damage to it, although in one of the pictures it appears a child is jumping off of it. It's like 3 feet high.)
Putting cans on the bike tires so that it would make more noise (kind of like how we used to put cards in our tire spokes.)
Loitering.

The ones in red would be something I would complain about. However, I am pretty much a stickler about my personal property and I would definitely complain about these.
The ones in dark orange are ones that would annoy me but I wouldn't complain to the HOA about them.
In fact, even the ones in red I wouldn't complain to the HOA about, I would at least attempt to talk to the people first, unless I thought they would be less than receptive to the situation.

[TiredX2]

OP, I don't think you should confront the complainer.

A few questions:
Are the children sitting on the sidewalk in front of the complainers house?
Is it the complainers yard they allegedly touched?

If the answer is no to either/both I don't see where he has a leg to stand on. Seriously, because if a neighborhood child walks on my lawn I don't care. I mean, I don't want kids I don't know camping out on our lawn or anything, but if they're running down the sidewalk and run through the lawn, big deal.

I would do the following:
1) Contact the HOA in writing asking for a clarification of rules regarding the common areas. Additionally, since in the previous mail they indicated the kids could not ride bikes on sidewalks OR streets does that mean they would prefer they ride bikes only on the common area grass?
2) Contact your local police dept and ask about:
a) sitting on sidewalks
b) riding bikes in streets
c) extended videoing of children w/out parental permission

I would need to know the responses before I would know what to do from there.

I would tell my children to not go near the complainer and if the individual tried to talk to them or otherwise contact them to come immediately home and get me.

[Sharon, RN]

You know, this thing just keeps getting weirder!

The HOA rep called back and left a message on my voicemail. She's rushing and rambling, but from what I can make out this is what she said:

"Maybe it's the company your child is keeping." (I think she means the AA kids, but I could be wrong.)

"The homeowner took pictures and complained and wanted the (HOA) board to send a letter."

"He had to take pictures because everyone always says it's not my kid." [this is not true for me, as, well, no one bothered to tell me anything. Maybe she's referring to the other children, the ones who seem to be actually doing what this guy was complaining about.]

"There's been vandalizing going on in the neighborhood, and somebody's kid is doing it, and if your child isn't doing anything wrong, further evidence will show this. So, do talk to your child."

"You can write a letter back to the Board if you want."

WTH? We've gone from "They were playing with a bike tire" to "Your kid is probably vandalizing the neighborhood? And, even if he's not, he's guilty until proven innocent?"

Is it just me, or is this getting even more off the wall?

Thanks for the input so far. For now, the pool just opened, so I take my ds there almost everyday. That way, I can stay with him. I have let him go out a couple of times, and stressed over and over and OVER again that he cannot go anywhere near this guy's house. But I keep going outside to monitor everything, just in case.

Poor guy.

This really sucks.

[MusicianDad]

Um, wow. It sounds like they already have your son pegged as a trouble maker and are just waiting for him to "screw up".

I would contact them again and tell them if that is the strongest evidence they have that your son is causing trouble then maybe they need to re-think their suspicions.