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Are there any gentle discipliners who use "spanking" as one of their tools? - Page 2

post #21 of 36
At 15 months, I definitely think that flicking her isn't going to teach her anything other than "Mommy/Daddy hurts me." Toddlers are big walking babies. They may seem big, but they think like infants.
post #22 of 36
I wanted to comment about your friend's son hurting your daughter. This is the thing - I don't think it's reasonable to expect a 15 month old to play with a 2 1/2 year old without one or both of them getting hurt. You either have to keep them apart until they're older, or you need to both be on the kids with constant, present supervision, ready to intervene at any moment.
post #23 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlippyHippy View Post
Our dd is 15 months old, and we've really started dealing with direct defiance in the past month or so.
This is the root, right here. You think-- she is defying me! I'll teach her a lesson! The problem here is that you are not familiar with child development. I think this is common with a first child! I think, generally, expectations of a first child are sky high. It is only with time and experience that we realize how teeny tiny our children are-- so young, for so long.

What if you think about it in a different way? Change your perspective instead of her? When it comes down to it, we cannot change anyone except ourselves-- no matter how old or how young. We may try to control them, but fundamental change comes from within. At the age of 15 months, she is acting her age. She cannot change now. This is who she is.

I am not saying it is easy. I am not guaranteeing behavior. But, in my experience, at the end of the day, everything comes down to my reaction. When I am able to react peacefully (or better yet, prevent the situation to begin with!) then that is all that matters.

Love, love these two sites:
http://www.connectionparenting.com/ (there's a book out there that is excellent by this author, but articles you can read now online)

http://www.handinhandparenting.org/ (superb resources, inc. tons of articles)
post #24 of 36
Quick reply and then I'm going to read all the replies bc my ds is the same age and totally into defiance right now. Redirection is now utterly useless to us so we are working on what limits we want to have ie what we will allow. Things that have worked - our house is 99% proofed and he has free reign. I never tell him "don't" because he purposively does it again and harder. If he hits me not too hard but looking for a reaction I totally ignore him. He loses interest instantly. He still "obeys" hot, not in the mouth, and wait, so we are going to work on some other key words like "not yours" eg when he wants to get into someone's golf cart to play!!
post #25 of 36
You've gotten a lot of good advice, I just wanted to underscore a few things. I also think you need a few more tools in your toolbox.

First, I agree wholeheartedly that you can't view this as 'defiance' (or at least as defiance directed personally at you). Your toddler is exploring her world. Her JOB is to find the boundaries. Her JOB is to repeat things over and over again to learn, as maddening as it is to us adults.

Second, I cannot stress how important it is to understand child development. A 15 month old can understand 'no', but they very often cannot stop when they've once started an activity. It's called 'impulse control'. Most adults have decent, but not perfect impulse control (which is why I just took a big handful of chocolate chips when I walked past the open bag even though I know I shouldn't have). Toddlers have very little impulse control. It's a skill that's learned over a long period of time. Punishment isn't going to make her develop any faster.

Third, there is a middle ground between hitting your child (flicking = hitting) and doing nothing. We're fairly strict parents, I think, and yet we do not use spanking as a tool. (I will confess to having spanked my kids in anger, and I'm thoroughly ashamed of that.) What you need are more tools in your toolbox. You said yourself that your parents spanked. That's what you know. Now's an excellent time to work on other things.

To that end, I've given you a long, long post I wrote up a couple of years ago for parents of toddlers. Toddlers are very frustrating to discipline, and I found these tools helpful when my kids were in this age range. These are my general toddler strategies. Not everyone on MDC will agree with me, but they're at least a place to start thinking.

***********************************************

General tips for disciplining a toddler:

Below I've given a list of my general tips for disciplining a toddler that I've collected over the years. None of these are original with me – all are things that I’ve gotten from books. My favorite books are:
Kids, Parents & Power Struggles
Playful Parenting
Parenting with Purpose by Lynda Madison (I like this one because it speaks directly to under 4s)

First, remember that discipline = teaching. For me, good discipline means teaching the child what to do and what to expect. Also remember that learning new things takes time. Your 20 month old can’t tie their own shoes, so don’t expect them to learn to not throw their spaghetti on the floor in one day.

Before you discipline remember that children need to be well fed and well rested before they can learn anything. Feed your toddler every 2 hours. Make sure they get enough sleep. If you're both tired and cranky (dinner time), you're going to have more battles. Try to plan a quiet activity or a way to cool off then. If your child has been sick, expect their behavior to be "off" for the 10 days to 2 weeks it takes them to fully recover (even if they "look" OK).

Note too that these are my ideals. I often fall far short of my ideals. My goal is not to be perfect, but to keep moving in the right direction.

Here's the short version of the list:
1. Create a positive environment
2. Fill your child's need for attention in positive ways
3. Tell them what to do, not what not to do.
4. Remember where they are in development.
5. Decide if the behavior needs correction/stopping
6. Find a safe way for them to do what they're trying to do ('honor the impulse')
7. Gently help them comply/physically show them what you mean
8. Explain/warn of the consequences (keep them logically related)
9. Calmly enforce the consequences


1. Create a positive environment.
For me, this means child-proofing so my child is free to explore. The easiest way for a child to have a good experience is to simply be able to explore without limits because there’s nothing dangerous around. So, toys should be age-appropriate (that means no toys that they can take apart), books should be board books only, knick knacks should be put away, stereo equipment etc. should be behind doors/guards.

For others, this means helping their child explore the dangerous things until the urge is out. (That's easy to do with one, harder to do with more than one because your attention is divided.) Sometimes if you hold a fragile object or help them hold fragile object, that's all it takes. I also taught my kids a 'one finger' touch. It's easier to keep it controlled and gentle.

IMO, every child should have at least one room where they are free to explore. Our kitchen was one of these rooms. All drawers except 2 had strong latches on them. The 2 free drawers had pans in them. One cupboard was all theirs, full of tupperware and plastic baby bowls and cups (and a few pans). The other room was the living room.

2. Make sure you fill up your child's cup of attention daily. If they get positive attention from you, they're less likely to act out just to get attention. I'm a firm believer in 30 minutes or so of focused attention where the child takes the lead in the play. When things are getting rough, this helps restore our connection.

3. Tell them what they CAN do. Don't phrase things in the negative . Phrasing things positively teaches your child what is acceptable and gets their mind off what they shouldn't be doing. So, instead of saying "don’t jump on the couch" say "come jump on the pillows". Instead of 'don't stand up on the chair' say 'sit down'.

Think of it this way, if someone says "Don't look over your shoulder, but..." what do you want to do? Look over your shoulder. If someone says "Hey, look up there!" (pointing ahead of you) do you think about looking over your shoulder? Negative instructions don't work well for anyone.

4. Remember where you child is in development. A young toddler has a short attention span. A toddler has little impulse control. Toddlers have a hard time stopping a behavior once they've started it. A toddler isn't great a using words when they're upset. Thus, actions speak louder than words for many reasons with a toddler. Toddlers are physical and tactile learners. They need to explore things physically and with their hands. Toddlers learn by repetition. They aren't doing this 85 times in a row just to frustrate you.

5. Decide whether a behavior is really worth stopping. Do I really care if my child takes ALL the puzzles off the shelf? Is it OK for my kids to slide down the stairs on an old air mattress? Why shouldn't my kids ride their scooters in the house? (OK, they can't do it while I'm cooking dinner, but other times, why not?)

6. Find something that the child CAN do that’s not the forbidden activity. Find a way to honor the impulse if what they're doing isn't safe/acceptable to you. So, if she wants to jump on the couch, put pillows on the floor and have her jump on those. If he wants to play in the toilet, set him up at the sink with a step stool, some bubbles and a few utensils.

7. Gently help them comply.
Under 3s are physical learners and sometimes need to be physically shown what you expect. Handing them the toy you want them to pick up. Gently helping them put their feet on the floor might be more effective than telling them 5 times "feet on the floor".

8. Warn of consequences Tell your child what to expect. "Please drive that truck on the floor. Throwing is not safe. If you don't drive it, I’ll have to put it up to keep us safe."

When you're thinking of a consequences, keep them related to what the child is doing. Timeout for throwing spaghetti on the floor doesn't make much sense to me. Better would be to have the child help pick up the spaghetti. (And yes, sometimes that meant me putting a single strand of spaghetti in my child's hand, and walking with them over to the trash. That single strand is 'helping'. At 5, my dd can now clean up after her own spills.)

8. Enforce consequences

This must be done consistently and calmly. Enforcing it after telling them three times "if you throw that (again), I’ll take it." only teaches them that you don’t mean what you say, or that they've got 5-10 chances before they have to listen.

You also need to remain calm. This is the absolute hardest part for me. If I'm reacting from a place of anger, I'm not disciplining (i.e. teaching). I'm more likely to punish than teach.

What are appropriate consequences for a child this age? First, try to 'help them' gently comply. If that doesn't work, then I apply:

1. Removing the toy if they’re not using it correctly.
2. Removing the child from the situation.
3. Remove yourself from the reach of the child. For example, if they're hurting you. So, if they hit, gently take their hand and say calmly "don’t hit. that hurts. You must be gentle (and demonstrate gentle)." If they do it again, then get up and say "Don’t hit, that hurts. I won’t play with you if you hit." and walk away.
4. If you’re losing it, then it’s probably best to separate yourself from your child until you’re calm enough to deal with them reasonably. I had to do this on some long days with our both our kids. I'd plop them in their cribs/rooms, and after 3-5 minutes, I could deal with him again.

For kids under 3, time-outs don’t do any good. (for older kids, it's also highly debatable.) Young children don't understand why they're in 'timeout', and they don't link the punishment (which happens after they've done something) to whatever it was they did.

Just removing them to another location is generally enough. So, sit them on the couch or a chair and say calmly, "keep your hands out of the toilet. it’s dirty." Then walk away (and close the bathroom door!). They’ll get up right away, but that’s OK. If you're really on your game you can add "Let's go play in the sink."

After our kids hit 3, we do timeouts in our house on occasion. Almost always it's when things have gotten out of hand we need to separate to keep ourselves sane/safe. If my kids hit, they were levitated to their rooms until they calmed down. Sometimes we send a child to their room for interminable whining. If you've been offered a hug, a cuddle and an alternative to whatever is making you whine, and you're STILL whining, it's time for you to go be by yourself. My kids often feed off of my negative energy, so a separation (either me putting myself in my room or putting them in their room) was effective in breaking the cycle.
post #26 of 36
Wow. LYNNS6 our baby isn't born yet but I have saved your post to refer too when she is older. It all just made so much sense. Thank you for taking the time to write it all out.

Regards
Kate
post #27 of 36
Lynn I really liked the reminder that a toddler doesn't repeatedly engage in a behavior you discouraged them from an hour earlier because they are 'defying' anyone. Toddlers repeat behaviors because their brain is learning through repetition. They actually need to hear corrections many times--it is a need, not a battle of the wills. Redirection and prevention are ways to avoid parental meltdowns as much as toddler meltdowns. It is frustrating to keep repeating yourself. But that doesn't mean the toddler wants to frustrate you.
post #28 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post
You've gotten a lot of good advice, I just wanted to underscore a few things. I also think you need a few more tools in your toolbox.

First, I agree wholeheartedly that you can't view this as 'defiance' (or at least as defiance directed personally at you). Your toddler is exploring her world. Her JOB is to find the boundaries. Her JOB is to repeat things over and over again to learn, as maddening as it is to us adults.

Second, I cannot stress how important it is to understand child development. A 15 month old can understand 'no', but they very often cannot stop when they've once started an activity. It's called 'impulse control'. Most adults have decent, but not perfect impulse control (which is why I just took a big handful of chocolate chips when I walked past the open bag even though I know I shouldn't have). Toddlers have very little impulse control. It's a skill that's learned over a long period of time. Punishment isn't going to make her develop any faster.

Third, there is a middle ground between hitting your child (flicking = hitting) and doing nothing. We're fairly strict parents, I think, and yet we do not use spanking as a tool. (I will confess to having spanked my kids in anger, and I'm thoroughly ashamed of that.) What you need are more tools in your toolbox. You said yourself that your parents spanked. That's what you know. Now's an excellent time to work on other things.

To that end, I've given you a long, long post I wrote up a couple of years ago for parents of toddlers. Toddlers are very frustrating to discipline, and I found these tools helpful when my kids were in this age range. These are my general toddler strategies. Not everyone on MDC will agree with me, but they're at least a place to start thinking.

***********************************************

General tips for disciplining a toddler:

Below I've given a list of my general tips for disciplining a toddler that I've collected over the years. None of these are original with me – all are things that I’ve gotten from books. My favorite books are:
Kids, Parents & Power Struggles
Playful Parenting
Parenting with Purpose by Lynda Madison (I like this one because it speaks directly to under 4s)

First, remember that discipline = teaching. For me, good discipline means teaching the child what to do and what to expect. Also remember that learning new things takes time. Your 20 month old can’t tie their own shoes, so don’t expect them to learn to not throw their spaghetti on the floor in one day.

Before you discipline remember that children need to be well fed and well rested before they can learn anything. Feed your toddler every 2 hours. Make sure they get enough sleep. If you're both tired and cranky (dinner time), you're going to have more battles. Try to plan a quiet activity or a way to cool off then. If your child has been sick, expect their behavior to be "off" for the 10 days to 2 weeks it takes them to fully recover (even if they "look" OK).

Note too that these are my ideals. I often fall far short of my ideals. My goal is not to be perfect, but to keep moving in the right direction.

Here's the short version of the list:
1. Create a positive environment
2. Fill your child's need for attention in positive ways
3. Tell them what to do, not what not to do.
4. Remember where they are in development.
5. Decide if the behavior needs correction/stopping
6. Find a safe way for them to do what they're trying to do ('honor the impulse')
7. Gently help them comply/physically show them what you mean
8. Explain/warn of the consequences (keep them logically related)
9. Calmly enforce the consequences


1. Create a positive environment.
For me, this means child-proofing so my child is free to explore. The easiest way for a child to have a good experience is to simply be able to explore without limits because there’s nothing dangerous around. So, toys should be age-appropriate (that means no toys that they can take apart), books should be board books only, knick knacks should be put away, stereo equipment etc. should be behind doors/guards.

For others, this means helping their child explore the dangerous things until the urge is out. (That's easy to do with one, harder to do with more than one because your attention is divided.) Sometimes if you hold a fragile object or help them hold fragile object, that's all it takes. I also taught my kids a 'one finger' touch. It's easier to keep it controlled and gentle.

IMO, every child should have at least one room where they are free to explore. Our kitchen was one of these rooms. All drawers except 2 had strong latches on them. The 2 free drawers had pans in them. One cupboard was all theirs, full of tupperware and plastic baby bowls and cups (and a few pans). The other room was the living room.

2. Make sure you fill up your child's cup of attention daily. If they get positive attention from you, they're less likely to act out just to get attention. I'm a firm believer in 30 minutes or so of focused attention where the child takes the lead in the play. When things are getting rough, this helps restore our connection.

3. Tell them what they CAN do. Don't phrase things in the negative . Phrasing things positively teaches your child what is acceptable and gets their mind off what they shouldn't be doing. So, instead of saying "don’t jump on the couch" say "come jump on the pillows". Instead of 'don't stand up on the chair' say 'sit down'.

Think of it this way, if someone says "Don't look over your shoulder, but..." what do you want to do? Look over your shoulder. If someone says "Hey, look up there!" (pointing ahead of you) do you think about looking over your shoulder? Negative instructions don't work well for anyone.

4. Remember where you child is in development. A young toddler has a short attention span. A toddler has little impulse control. Toddlers have a hard time stopping a behavior once they've started it. A toddler isn't great a using words when they're upset. Thus, actions speak louder than words for many reasons with a toddler. Toddlers are physical and tactile learners. They need to explore things physically and with their hands. Toddlers learn by repetition. They aren't doing this 85 times in a row just to frustrate you.

5. Decide whether a behavior is really worth stopping. Do I really care if my child takes ALL the puzzles off the shelf? Is it OK for my kids to slide down the stairs on an old air mattress? Why shouldn't my kids ride their scooters in the house? (OK, they can't do it while I'm cooking dinner, but other times, why not?)

6. Find something that the child CAN do that’s not the forbidden activity. Find a way to honor the impulse if what they're doing isn't safe/acceptable to you. So, if she wants to jump on the couch, put pillows on the floor and have her jump on those. If he wants to play in the toilet, set him up at the sink with a step stool, some bubbles and a few utensils.

7. Gently help them comply.
Under 3s are physical learners and sometimes need to be physically shown what you expect. Handing them the toy you want them to pick up. Gently helping them put their feet on the floor might be more effective than telling them 5 times "feet on the floor".

8. Warn of consequences Tell your child what to expect. "Please drive that truck on the floor. Throwing is not safe. If you don't drive it, I’ll have to put it up to keep us safe."

When you're thinking of a consequences, keep them related to what the child is doing. Timeout for throwing spaghetti on the floor doesn't make much sense to me. Better would be to have the child help pick up the spaghetti. (And yes, sometimes that meant me putting a single strand of spaghetti in my child's hand, and walking with them over to the trash. That single strand is 'helping'. At 5, my dd can now clean up after her own spills.)

8. Enforce consequences

This must be done consistently and calmly. Enforcing it after telling them three times "if you throw that (again), I’ll take it." only teaches them that you don’t mean what you say, or that they've got 5-10 chances before they have to listen.

You also need to remain calm. This is the absolute hardest part for me. If I'm reacting from a place of anger, I'm not disciplining (i.e. teaching). I'm more likely to punish than teach.

What are appropriate consequences for a child this age? First, try to 'help them' gently comply. If that doesn't work, then I apply:

1. Removing the toy if they’re not using it correctly.
2. Removing the child from the situation.
3. Remove yourself from the reach of the child. For example, if they're hurting you. So, if they hit, gently take their hand and say calmly "don’t hit. that hurts. You must be gentle (and demonstrate gentle)." If they do it again, then get up and say "Don’t hit, that hurts. I won’t play with you if you hit." and walk away.
4. If you’re losing it, then it’s probably best to separate yourself from your child until you’re calm enough to deal with them reasonably. I had to do this on some long days with our both our kids. I'd plop them in their cribs/rooms, and after 3-5 minutes, I could deal with him again.

For kids under 3, time-outs don’t do any good. (for older kids, it's also highly debatable.) Young children don't understand why they're in 'timeout', and they don't link the punishment (which happens after they've done something) to whatever it was they did.

Just removing them to another location is generally enough. So, sit them on the couch or a chair and say calmly, "keep your hands out of the toilet. it’s dirty." Then walk away (and close the bathroom door!). They’ll get up right away, but that’s OK. If you're really on your game you can add "Let's go play in the sink."

After our kids hit 3, we do timeouts in our house on occasion. Almost always it's when things have gotten out of hand we need to separate to keep ourselves sane/safe. If my kids hit, they were levitated to their rooms until they calmed down. Sometimes we send a child to their room for interminable whining. If you've been offered a hug, a cuddle and an alternative to whatever is making you whine, and you're STILL whining, it's time for you to go be by yourself. My kids often feed off of my negative energy, so a separation (either me putting myself in my room or putting them in their room) was effective in breaking the cycle.
Seriously, can I print this and put it on my fridge?
post #29 of 36
my DD (our second) is exactly your DD's age and I have noticed that she is much more "difficult" (that isn't the exact word) than I'd expected at this age when compared to my older daughter at this stage.... so I do understand your frustration. first, I have to say that we DO NOT hit (or flick or swat or anything like that). It MIGHT work to stop a behavior in the very short term (through surprise, fear, pain, etc.) but it does nothing to help a child internalize limits/rules/consequences etc. there is plenty of research (others have mentioned) about why physical punnishment doesn't work and the negative outcomes it can cause in a child's life. what really bugs me also is the idea of using hitting as a response to hitting or other physical aggression. it gives the message that one has to be kind/gentle/patient/use their words etc.... but ONLY until they are bigger and grown at which time they are free to use violence.

with our 15 month DD, we use a lot of redirection and ignoring. if she hits us (which she does to me and our older DD more often) we move her firmly away from us (she is usuallly aiming at our face) and tell her "no hitting, hitting hurts. use gentle hands and do 'nice-nice'" (and then we hold her hand and demonstrate nice-nice on our own face and with our own hand on hers). if she does it again (it usually is immediate) we move her away from our face, say in a firm voice, "no hitting. all done mommy (or Becca if she hits her big sister)" and sit her down facing away from us. I then turn my face away from her for about 30 seconds - a minute. this works VERY WELL for her. i don't like to see her cry, but she does get upset when our attention is removed, and the incidents are WAY DOWN.

with throwing (of food/cup etc) i give a reminder or two and then stop playing. if she throws her cup, i just leave it down there. if she keeps throwing food, i eventually tell her that she's all done and assume she is finished eating. I do understand that she may be not wanting the specific thing in front of her... so we've been working with her on saying "all done" before she throws, which gives me a moment to sweep it out of her hand/off her tray and give her lots of praise for "not throwing"-- this has also helped a LOT.
good luck!
post #30 of 36
Haven't read the responses.

If you want your child to hit (or flick) other kids, dogs, etc., go ahead and hit her. That's what you'll be teaching her (just as your parents taught you it's okay to hit/flick kids.)

If you want her to learn to respect you, treat her with respect. Understand she is being age appropriate and physically remove her from where she is at. She will outgrow this. You just need to be patient and use gentle means to get her to be safe.

If you don't like how your friend's child treats your daughter tell the mother, "We can't get together until your son doesn't hurt my daughter anymore." You may lose a friend, but you've got to protect your little one.
post #31 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronsmom View Post
Seriously, can I print this and put it on my fridge?
Yep, me too.

*subbing* until I get home to print....
post #32 of 36
Lots and lots of great advice here!

Just wanted to say something as a Mom of one of "those" toddlers who can be agressive to other babies/children--

1) it is a phase, and developmentally normal
2) he is disciplined for it. we tell him "no hitting, that hurts, please be nice" (he understands what 'nice' is vs 'mean' and what 'hurt' means) and remove him from the child he is hitting. we have also done "time ins" as discipline for this, where I sit and hold him for a few minutes away from friends/toys. sometimes he stops, sometimes he goes right back to hitting.
3) he thinks it is a game. he thinks it is funny. he does not realize he is hurting other children. he is not trying to hurt other children

like a PP said, if it bothers you that much you need to keep your child away from the boy who is hurting her. whether that means you avoid playgroups together, or you physically keep them apart if you do get together. your daughter will either go through the same phase when she gets older, or she won't. it is all up to her personality. and flicking her now is definitely NOT going to teach her not to hit others.
post #33 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronsmom View Post
Seriously, can I print this and put it on my fridge?
Only if you remember that this is my ideal, and that I often fell short of this ideal.

Actually, I still fall short of my ideals, it's just how you need to discipline changes a lot as they age. I haven't had to stop anyone from mouthing something or playing in the toilet in years! I've got that mastered. Now I'm trying to figure out how to deal with the problems of older kids.
post #34 of 36
To the OP -- I hope we haven't scared you off.

Parenting is definitely a journey, and I've learned a lot about my parenting values by having people react to things that I've said. Sometimes I've changed how I've done things, sometimes I've just rethought my motivation. For example, many people on this board don't do time outs. I understand why, but choose to do limited time outs because it is consistent with my values, and to be honest, my needs as a parent. I'm somewhat explosive, and separation is a good thing at times.

We may sound like we know it all, but we don't. It's just much easier to parent someone else's child via the internet than to do it in person .
post #35 of 36
Children do as we do, not as we say. So... I don't think you can teach a child not to be violent, by being violent.
post #36 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post
We may sound like we know it all, but we don't. It's just much easier to parent someone else's child via the internet than to do it in person .
Ain't that the truth!
I tell dp all the time that I have really good advice on discipline. Now if I could just follow my own advice all the time, I'd be good to go! lol.

I just wanted to share this article, that talks about when kids do things that they "know" they shouldn't do. http://www.becomingtheparent.com/all/subsection13.html

Also, I 100% agree with the "honor the impulse" suggestion of a previous poster. Find out the impulse behind the action, and find an acceptable way for her to meet that impulse.

I also wanted to touch on the idea that little kids can "defy" anyone. They are so self-centered, that I don't think they even know that other people have different thoughts than they have, kwim? (there is a study about this in the book titled something like- Einstein never used flashcards- basically, that the age at which children learn that other people have different thoughts is 4-5ish).
At younger ages it's all about meeting needs, impulses, learning independence, etc.
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