Soy isflavones help - Page 6

[Logan]

I just found this thread and am thinking of trying this for my next cycle. Im a little confused, why do you take it for just a few days and not the first 2 weeks??

[karmab]

bumped for b.

[karmab]

2nd cycle on soy, 8th cycle trying. i took 40 mg on days 4-8, and got a bfp this am at 9 dpo. i hope it sticks.

i just saw logan's question too. someone may be able to explain it better than me, but the idea is that soy is a natural clomid in a way. it is a natural selective estrogen receptor modulator, so it blocks your estrogen receptors and makes your body think you are low on estrogen, so that it tries to make more. you don't want to keep blocking the estrogen receptors though, you want things to progress as they normally would in your cycle, just with a short boost. you take it for 5 days, starting anytime from cd 1 to cd5, like clomid. realize though that a lot of what we say about soy is guesswork, extrapolated from clomid, because in theory, they should work the same way. it hasnt really been studied (because there is no money to be made by pharmaceutical companies.) the other thing to keep in mind is, since most of us are doing soy on our own- and our doctors probably dont know anything about it in most cases- there is a decent chance that soy won't help because this is not your obstacle, ykwim? and if you've got thyroid issues that are undiagnosed, you may not o at all if you take soy. if you are heavy, i'm not sure about soy, because adipose makes it's own estrogen, so a lot of heavier women have estrogen dominance (and some skinny women too!) and i just dont know if soy is helpful in those cases. someone else may know more about that. it is supposed to be helpful for some with pcos. but, a lot of women have good luck with it, some late o'ers can o much sooner on it, and many ladies credit their bfps with it. it's one of those things you should try to learn as much as possible about, and then you have to make that decision as to whether or not it makes sense for you. i took it because i have a luteal phase defect, and clomid is an option for treatment for that, so i thought it was worth a chance. good luck!

[Logan]

Originally Posted by karmab

2nd cycle on soy, 8th cycle trying. i took 40 mg on days 4-8, and got a bfp this am at 9 dpo. i hope it sticks.

i just saw logan's question too. someone may be able to explain it better than me, but the idea is that soy is a natural clomid in a way. it is a natural selective estrogen receptor modulator, so it blocks your estrogen receptors and makes your body think you are low on estrogen, so that it tries to make more. you don't want to keep blocking the estrogen receptors though, you want things to progress as they normally would in your cycle, just with a short boost. you take it for 5 days, starting anytime from cd 1 to cd5, like clomid. realize though that a lot of what we say about soy is guesswork, extrapolated from clomid, because in theory, they should work the same way. it hasnt really been studied (because there is no money to be made by pharmaceutical companies.) the other thing to keep in mind is, since most of us are doing soy on our own- and our doctors probably dont know anything about it in most cases- there is a decent chance that soy won't help because this is not your obstacle, ykwim? and if you've got thyroid issues that are undiagnosed, you may not o at all if you take soy. if you are heavy, i'm not sure about soy, because adipose makes it's own estrogen, so a lot of heavier women have estrogen dominance (and some skinny women too!) and i just dont know if soy is helpful in those cases. someone else may know more about that. it is supposed to be helpful for some with pcos. but, a lot of women have good luck with it, some late o'ers can o much sooner on it, and many ladies credit their bfps with it. it's one of those things you should try to learn as much as possible about, and then you have to make that decision as to whether or not it makes sense for you. i took it because i have a luteal phase defect, and clomid is an option for treatment for that, so i thought it was worth a chance. good luck!

Congrats

Thanks so much for your answers. So your body would normally have a surge in estrogen followed by a drop 5 days or so before the LH surge? Is that right?

I will be trying it next month, Im hoping it will do the trick for me too- I also have a short luteal phase issue. Dont know how my cycle can be so perfect on 28 days but the ovulation just cant get its act together . Did you take only 40mg a day? Did you do all the same days/dosage last cycle? Was your luteal phase longer because of it last cycle?

[karmab]

Originally Posted by Logan

Congrats

Thanks so much for your answers. So your body would normally have a surge in estrogen followed by a drop 5 days or so before the LH surge? Is that right?

I will be trying it next month, Im hoping it will do the trick for me too- I also have a short luteal phase issue. Dont know how my cycle can be so perfect on 28 days but the ovulation just cant get its act together . Did you take only 40mg a day? Did you do all the same days/dosage last cycle? Was your luteal phase longer because of it last cycle?

im not an expert on this at all. i know there are charts that show the normal hormone happenings through a cycle, i'll see if i can find you one online, or someone else may have one to share. but not exactly. you aren't really getting a surge in estrogen when you take the soy the way i understand it, your level will just sort of slowly rise as your body tries to reach the right level, and you are tricking it into thinking it's not there yet. but yes, the increased estrogen is part of that chain of events that signals the lh to kick in and everything to gear up.

[GolfAddict]

Karmab ~ CONGRATS!!!

Originally Posted by karmab

im not an expert on this at all. i know there are charts that show the normal hormone happenings through a cycle, i'll see if i can find you one online, or someone else may have one to share. but not exactly. you aren't really getting a surge in estrogen when you take the soy the way i understand it, your level will just sort of slowly rise as your body tries to reach the right level, and you are tricking it into thinking it's not there yet. but yes, the increased estrogen is part of that chain of events that signals the lh to kick in and everything to gear up.

Originally Posted by Logan

So your body would normally have a surge in estrogen followed by a drop 5 days or so before the LH surge? Is that right?

Yes, I believe you guys are on the right path. I use an ovacue and it measures your electrolytes in your saliva looking for the surge that happens about 5-7 days prior to O.

[karmab]

yeah, and i used ov-watch for a few months, that one measures chloride ions on your skin, which is one of the first chemicals to surge, then it drops before lh surges, so the idea is you get more notice. and it did work, but i stopped using it because you wear it to bed, and dh would look sideways at it, and was always saying he felt like i was timing him! he'd say- you've got the stopwatch on again? so now, it's just sitting in the cabinet.

the ov-watch does have one of those hormone graphs on the box. it's probably on their website too- ovwatch.com i believe.

logan- i forgot to say, yes, i took 40 mg/day, each of the five days. and actually, no, my lp was not great last cycle, even being on progesterone, and the soy.

[contactmaya]

Holy cow Karma, that’s fantastic news! Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sending you lots of sticky vibes!

As for the general disussion, I took the soy because I thought it might boost my O and make it stronger. All it did was suppress all signs of O, and delay it by about 5 days. I O’d, but i only know because I paid 100bucks to test my 7th day progesterone levels.

(soy dosage-took 75-100mg days 3-7)

Usually, pre O signs are pretty normal, and not a problem for me.
Just from reading these boards, it seems that soy is best for those with weak O symptoms, late ovulation, or pcos. But for those who O normally, then it appears soy causes problems.

As for the short luteal phase, I have one which is either brought on by nursing, egg issues, or both, or something else entirely. I take a low dose of progesterone for that.

Im not taking soy again this month, but just wanted to update my experience from last cycle.
My progesterone on day 7 was 18.62. I asked the doctor if my progesterone supplements were giving me an artificially high result. She inquired with the lab and the manufacturers, and they said that in fact no, this product would not be picked up in the blood draw, so that this result was my natural progesterone. (i took progonB-fermented plant derived progesterone including barbasco extract, diocorea quat and some others, *not*…including yam.)
She said that a pharmateutical grade progesterone like promotrium, would be picked up however.

I wish I could understand why soy would suppress/delay O in cycles that O normally. (excluding any other factors) Maybe the estrogen receptors were blocked, and the body doesn’t bother increasing its estrogen output, so you just get lower estrogen output.

Good luck to those taking soy!!
Maya

[GolfAddict]

Originally Posted by contactmaya

(soy dosage-took 75-100mg days 3-7)

Do you think your dosage may have been too high?
I have been researching SI for over a week now and have read hundreds of posts and such. One post I saw was that someone had taken a high dose and it screwed up her cycle. And for whatever reason she decided to give it another try and took 40 or 80 mg (can't remember exactly) and it worked and she got her BFP.
I don't know why it might work at a smaller dose but it is probably the same reason clomid doesn't work for everybody. And after I read her post I pictured a bell curve in that a YOUR perfect dosage you will see max benefits but too much and the benefits start to decline and you slide down the bell curve - kinda like the utilization curve in economics. Or maybe I'm just bored at work and overthinking this TTC crap!!


I also read one post in which a lady said that her doc told her that Clomid is more effective if taken in the AM. I know most people take it in PM since it reduces the side effects. I haven't gotten around to googling clomid effectiveness vs time taken though. But if so, I wonder if the same is true for SI. Looks like I just found something else to do to avoid working!!

[GolfAddict]

Also, does anybody have a VIP membership to FF? I don't and keep thinking I will get my BFP so I didn't want to spend the $45...HA...jokes on me.

One of the blogs I found from several years ago sited a survey/study on FF in which 75% of women got their BFP on first cycle of SI. But there were only 8 people who answered the survey. I was wondering if anybody has seen updated data on FF.

[contactmaya]

Hey Golfaddict,
i hear you on the over thinking ttc. Fortunately for me, i like the thinking/discovering part of it, and am trying to enjoy it, and the fact that im not having a first trimester in the summer,(cos last time that was not pleasant). Other than that, im starting to think, get me the hell pregnant already, this is ridiculous! Or maybe this its it for me, and that really breaks my heart. I dont know, conception is meant to be the fun part!!!

I actually thought that my dose was lower than average. Most accounts seem to be 150ish to 250ish mg a day. I only took 75, and upped it to 100 the last 2 days. You could be right, but i just dont want to try another soy cycle and risk another month.
Dont know about the FF thing. Others could help you there.

[EllyMayMomma]

Today is cd1 for me. I will be taking 80 mg days 2-6, though I did read somewhere about taking it 7 days rather than 5. Guess I will wait to see how side effects go.

GolfAdict, I saw that blog. I am relatively new to my FF subscription but will see if I can find anything new.

[CLH_X3]

Well Im on a new cycle so SI didnt get my BFP for me the first time...

Onto the second cycle using it ...

im taking it 5-9 instead this cycle, CD5 today for me ... And i will keep the doasge at 100MG ..

last cycle i didnt have any side effects at all! ...

[LivingSky]

Well, AF arrived for me today, so I'm going to try SI this time. It will be the first month I'm charting temps as well, so it should be an exciting month! I'll let you know how it goes

[MountainMamaGC]

I think I will try soy next cycle. I do ovulate typically but not until CD 19 or 20. Maybe it will bump it up. I am nervous about getting twins though since my mom is a fraternal twin. In October I will have been trying for a year and I dont want to get to that point if I dont have to.

[GolfAddict]

Originally Posted by CLH_X3

Well Im on a new cycle so SI didnt get my BFP for me the first time...

Onto the second cycle using it ...

im taking it 5-9 instead this cycle, CD5 today for me ... And i will keep the doasge at 100MG ..

last cycle i didnt have any side effects at all! ...

Why are you doing CD5-9? It seems the most popular is CD3-7. So I was just wondering why you decided on the days you did?

Originally Posted by LivingSky

Well, AF arrived for me today, so I'm going to try SI this time. It will be the first month I'm charting temps as well, so it should be an exciting month! I'll let you know how it goes

for AF showing up. But sounds like you have a busy month to keep your mind occupied.

Originally Posted by Lydiah

I think I will try soy next cycle. I do ovulate typically but not until CD 19 or 20. Maybe it will bump it up. I am nervous about getting twins though since my mom is a fraternal twin. In October I will have been trying for a year and I dont want to get to that point if I dont have to.

I'm in the same boat. My avg O was cd14 before the mc. Now my avg is CD19. But I feel like my CM and Ovacue indicates I am getting ready to O around CD14 but something stalls it. So I thought maybe the SI would trigger it to come at CD14 again.
This month makes 2 years for us - 1st year doing whatever and 2nd year charting and really trying. I'm starting to try whatever I can before I move on to a fertility clinic.
I would actually be happy with twins. We talked about twins (even though they don't run in either of our families) and sd we would be done if we had twins. But if it was girl-girl or boy-boy, I can't say with 100% certainty that I could be done.

And I finally broke down and paid for a VIP membership on FF. I just did a keyword search under the chart gallery of "soy isoflavones" and nothing else. Not sure how many charts it is pulling but the breakdown is as follows:
6% - anovulatory
54% - ovulatory
5% - miscarriage
34% - pregnancy
So I guess it should really be 39% pg if you add the MC and PG percentages.

[karmab]

im really not sure whether or not you can count on soy to bump up o date. for women who normally ovulate on an avg timeframe, around cd 14, it is normal to have o delayed by 1-2 days on soy, similarly to clomid. the ladies who use it with pcos or have very long cycles, very delayed o, sometimes have good luck with soy moving up o, similarly to clomid also. im just not sure how to expect it to work with someone who o's just a tad later than average- would it move it up or back. just not sure.

[pixie1115]

I don't post here a lot but wanted to join this thread. We have been ttc #3 for about 6 months although we never prevented after dd #2 who is now 22 months. Both of our children were concieved with clomid. We have unexplained infertility. I got pregnant fairly eaisly on clomid so I thought soy would do the trick right away.

I took 100 mg of soy last month on days 3-7 and wasn't pregnant. This month I tried 150 mg on days 5-9 and am supposed to get AF like now...anytime tonight..if it doesn't come by monday morning there would be a good chance I am pregnant. I don't want to test yet though because I do that every single month and get let down so I am just going to wait it out and keep hope alive

[GolfAddict]

Well, looks like I will be on the soy bandwagon this month. Temp dropped this morning and just waiting for AF to find me.

Not quite sure if I will try 40mg or 80mg to start with though.

[momsmyjob]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here...I have a ?

Anybody have experience with anything other than the soy. I'm still researching and trying to decide which is best for me. I'm going back and forth between the soy, Vitex and FertilAid.

A little Info: I've always had normal cycles and regular O as far as I know. I have been using O strips, this is my second cycle now, and have yet to get a surge. So while my cycles have ALWAYS been regular 28-30 days, my last two for whatever reason went wonky. I was almost 3 weeks late and 110% sure I wasn't preg., then my next was 5 days early. So I'm on CD16 and wondering...any advice? Should I try one over the other(soy,vit,fertA)? I have no clue why all of the sudden my cycle went wonky. Could be that I gained 10lbs? So far nothing on the strips, equal lines or a smiley face? I want my regular cycle back and was thinking of trying the soy.