Anti-circ, pro-piercing?

[tommynomad]

I suspect there's a certain amount of selection bias posting this here, but I'm interested in hearing opinions. Another thread revealed to me the passion with which many parents (and parents-to-be) oppose circumcision--some to the point of disowning friends.

I am anti-circ, both female and male. I think it's rooted in superstitious nonsense and questionable from a perspective of human rights. Lots of parents around me agree with me. But...these same people have pierced their children's ears, an equally permanent alteration. I think this reeks of hypocrisy (but most of us--myself included--are hypocrites about something). Some of these parents still spank their kids, which may or may not have just as severe, long-lasting, and societal effects as either of the body-altering procedures in the thread title. And yet many people--even some anti-spankers--believe it's still up to each individual parent to make that kind of decision.

Public condemnation and shunning of people based on their parenting decisions seems to me a boomerang that will likely come back on us (I've already felt it, being anti-vax & anti-spank).

So my question is threefold:

If you are anti-circ, are you also anti-pierce? If not, why not?
Would you break off a friendship if the other parent pierced their child's ears (or other body part)? What about spanking? What about not letting their kids eat meat? Or smoking in front of their kids?
How much of a village does it take: where do we draw the line on what parents must be permitted to decide for themselves?

[zinemama]

I wouldn't break up a friendship over circing and I don't know anyone outside of MDC who would. I could care less if someone pierces their kid's ear or eats meat. As for smoking, I don't know anyone who does it anymore. And spanking - how would I even know?

[Raine822]

I would not pierce my children either, for me it is the same idea-they cannot give consent. I would not break off a friendship for circ or piercing though. I want others to respect my right to make decisions for my children so I will respect theirs even if i disagree. I will though try my hardest to educate them. As for spanking I do keep myself and my children away from parents who do. 1) parents who spank their children may consider it OK to spank mine(I once saw someone hit another's child IN FRONT OF THE MOTHER.) 2) I don't want my children to be around it.

[just_lily]

I am anti-circ and anti-infant-piercing. But I feel that circ is a human rights violation. Ear piercing, on the other hand, I think is rather ridiculous - why would I put an infant through a painful experience so that they look "cute"?

I can't see breaking off an existing strong friendship over either though. I would have a really hard time with circ and would do my best to talk them out of it.

I did stop pursuing a friendship after a lady I knew pierced her six month old's ears. We had met at a local baby playgroup and she had invited me out a few times, but I was already getting the feeling that we weren't very well matched as friends, and the ear piercing was more the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. But I still saw her around from time to time as we are in a smaller community and was friendly to her.

[hippiemommaof4]

***I am anti-circ and anti-infant-piercing. But I feel that circ is a human rights violation. Ear piercing, on the other hand, I think is rather ridiculous - why would I put an infant through a painful experience so that they look "cute"? ***


I'm against it as well however
piercing could be considered a human rights violation too it can leave a permanent scar or hole in the body part...some people circ because of looks some people pierce for looks...all just depends on your perspective. I've seen things other cultures do that would be considered human rights violations by me as well but other people accept it.I think that was the whole point for this post is how far are we willing to take this whole situation about disagreeing as parents and shunning eachother. I could get really upset over all of these matters all of which I pretty much disagree with but I know people who do them and even when I give them the info and they dont take it to heart I just have to learn to accept I cant change everyones minds and go on with my life comfortable and happy with my own family and our choices

[Katielady]

I wouldn't break off a friendship over circ or piercing. Circ does change how I feel about a parent though, and I definitely feel I have more in common value-wise with parents who leave their sons intact. I feel the same kind of disconnect with ear-piercing parents, but to a much lesser extent.

I haven't ended any friendship over one parenting issue, but have backed away from moms who have made lots of choices that are not only different from mine but, in my view, harmful to children. At some point I just end up feeling like our values are so different that there's not enough to sustain the friendship; plus, I don't want my kids exposed to certain things.

I don't feel that circ should be a parental choice, so I guess that makes it different in my mind than other issues. But around here it is so incredibly common, even amongst the crunchier crowds, that I'd have few friends left if I cut out everyone who circed. I try to look at the mom as a whole, look at where her heart is, and go from there.

[beru]

I would never set out to end a relationship because of circumcision. But, I think it has happened anyway. I couldn't help it. I can't be around my friend or her sons without thinking about what she did to them. I really do try to let it go but it nags at me. It has changed how I see her and I have lost respect for her. It stings a little when people here condemn some of us who have lost friendships over this...

I am not being recalcitrant or punitive. I am not trying to punish her for what she did. I have just learned, through the decision that she made, that we are not as compatible as I thought. I don't enjoy her company as much anymore or trust her advice.

[2xy]

I am anti-circ and anti-infant piercing. However, piercing doesn't alter function or destroy body parts, and circ does. I see piercing more as a presumptuous imposition than a human rights violation.

I have not and would not end a friendship over circumcision, though. It's a legal and promoted procedure in this country, and most parents do what they think is in the best interest of their babies. And really....there are lots of little boys in my extended family and at least half of them are circed. I can't imagine shunning my kids' aunts, uncles, and cousins over it.

I don't think I've lost any friendships because of differing parenting choices.

[kittywitty]

I am very anti-both. I don't consider them equal, but both are wrong. I wouldn't say I would break off a friendship for circ'ing (that implies I have friends, lol). But I was raised Jewish and circ'ed my son and deeply regret it. I am now anti-circ. I think if I had a friend who was very outspokenly PRO-circ, then we probably had enough other differences that I can't see us being friends to begin with. I have lost one friendship (a childhood friend I remained close to for years) for parenting/lifestyle differences, but it was extreme-abusive relationships, beating the children, drug use, CIO to an extreme, etc.

[texmati]

I do look down (very much so) on people who circ-- esp this day in age where information is so readily accessible.

I would not pierce my baby girls ears (in my culture, much more against the grain than leaving my son intact) but...

Removing the foreskin is more like removing your babies little toe, than piercing ears. Ear piercing many times is reversible, and does not compromise function of the ears. It also is a much less risk procedure.

[hippiemommaof4]

I just want to point out that piercing can def cause malformations too in accidents etc earrings getting caught on things and ripped out its more common than you think too .

[Drummer's Wife]

I wouldn't lose a friend b/c they circ'd, and I wouldn't lose a friend if they pierced their kid's ears, spanked, smoked in front of them, or didn't allow them to eat meat.

I think an infant with pierced ears looks funny, and spanking is detrimental - and I might even voice those opinions if it was a close enough friend but I wouldn't cut them out of my life for any of the examples listed.

ETA: I also don't know anyone IRL who would lose a friend over circumcision. As I said in the other thread, it's not a common thing to even know what a friend's DS's genitals look like - or even their stance on it. It's just not something that comes up in everyday conversion, for most of the population.

[Smokering]

I am anti-circ and anti-infant piercing. However, piercing doesn't alter function or destroy body parts, and circ does.

Agreed. It's a much lesser evil, so my feelings about it are much less strong. That isn't hypocritical.... it's rational. If you wouldn't end a friendship over circ, does that mean you'd be hypocritical to end a friendship with someone who cut her baby's arms off? No, it means you decide what level of wrongness outweighs the friendship. Same thing here.

Personally I wouldn't consider ear piercing a definite dealbreaker, but it'd be a red flag and I'd certainly encourage a friend not to do it (like circ, it's not common here). I don't putit on the same level as genital cutting, but that doesn't mean I'm a fan.

As the thread you're referring to shows, ending a friendship over circ isn't necessarily a dispassionate decision but one based on moral revulsion and sadness in a circumstance in which the intactivist friend knew for a fact that the parent was aware of what she/he was doing to the baby. Nobody was talking about a circumstance where two people had been friends for twenty years, when one party suddenly broke off the friendship upon finding the other let her son be circed 15 years ago without knowing anything about intactivism.

[Katielady]

Originally Posted by beru

I would never set out to end a relationship because of circumcision. But, I think it has happened anyway. I couldn't help it. I can't be around my friend or her sons without thinking about what she did to them. I really do try to let it go but it nags at me. It has changed how I see her and I have lost respect for her. It stings a little when people here condemn some of us who have lost friendships over this...

I am not being recalcitrant or punitive. I am not trying to punish her for what she did. I have just learned, through the decision that she made, that we are not as compatible as I thought. I don't enjoy her company as much anymore or trust her advice.

I know exactly what you mean. I feel the same way when someone circs. I hope my post didn't make you feel condemned. It's such a personal thing and so complicated. More laterl baby fussy.

[tommynomad]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Agreed. It's a much lesser evil, so my feelings about it are much less strong. That isn't hypocritical.... it's rational.

But I think a lot of people would say their opposition to:
- piercing
- veil-wearing
- meat-eating
- vaccination
- smoking
are all based just as solidly in rational thought. Certainly the last 3 are significant health issues, and in three others to some degree, community/government already transgress on parents' ability to make decisions. I know lots of people who are just as zealous about their support/opposition for the above issues as some of us are about circumcision. I don't think we can write off their concerns, lest they write off ours the same way.

[serendipity22]

Circ and piercing are similar in that they both cause injury and both are human rights abuses.

Its a question of degree though, circ is 1000 times worse than having ears pierced. Mentioning together tends to trivialize circ.

[Smokering]

But I think a lot of people would say their opposition to:
- piercing
- veil-wearing
- meat-eating
- vaccination
- smoking
are all based just as solidly in rational thought. Certainly the last 3 are significant health issues, and in three others to some degree, community/government already transgress on parents' ability to make decisions. I know lots of people who are just as zealous about their support/opposition for the above issues as some of us are about circumcision. I don't think we can write off their concerns, lest they write off ours the same way.

OK, but... so? Obviously every parent has issues she feels so strongly about that she would break off a friendship over them. That's fine. I eat meat, but if someone found that so morally repellent she couldn't be around me... well, fair enough.

[arihillfarm]

I would not break off a friendship either over circumcision or ear piercing, no matter how I feel about each one. My personal feeling is that any non-medically necessary body alterations should only be done with the consent of the person involved at an age and maturity level befitting the procedure being considered. With that said, I will likely allow my DD9 to get her ears pierced within the next year or two if she keeps asking to have them done. I would not allow my son to be circumsized if he asked at the same age simply because one IS worse than the other as far as long term effects on the body. Ear piercing is a small hole and does not affect bodily or sexual function. Something more analogous would be if my DD wanted to cut off her earlobes in which case she'd have to wait until she's 18, as would my son if he wanted to be circumsized. Piercings and tattoos don't bother me so much because they are literally only skin deep and don't change function of the body, but I would never force them on my children either.

-Astrid

[momasana]

This thread has got me thinking...

Ear-piercing and circ make me very, very sad, but I would not end a friendship over it.

However, I would, and have, end a friendship with someone who spanks their children.

Now I need to do some thinking to figure out why I feel this way and what the difference is...

[mlec]

I am anti-circ, and anti-ear-piercing of a young child.

However, to compare these two is ridiculous. Leaving a small scar on the earlobe? A more apt comparison would be if the piercing was instead the removal of the outer ear, which woud affect hearing, and be irreparable mutilation.

I mean, c'mon! Circ-ing kills, as often as SIDS . Can you really put that on the same level as a small hole or scar on the earlobe?

And of course hitting another human being in your care is wrong, but can you really compare it to genital mutilation and possible death?

As far as friendships go, I am friends with many people whose decisions I do not agree with, and whose beliefs I do not share (even those who might compare meat consumption to maiming newborns). But I do believe there is potential for a deeper friendship with those whose values I share.