Anti-circ, pro-piercing? - Page 2

[KaylaBeanie]

If you are anti-circ, are you also anti-pierce? If not, why not?
I am not anti-piercing. If I ever have a daughter, I'd get her ears pierced sometime around 4-6 months, by a needle with proper jewelry, none of this gun business. To me, the difference between the two is astounding. With circ, a sizable part of the body is removed that forever alters the way the genitals work. With piercing, the pain isn't comparable and no function is lost. I think it's cute (not a valid reason to most MDC moms, but I think it is, and if she hates it when she gets older (unlikely) she can take them out. A lot also comes from my own experience...a bad reason? To a lot of people, probably, but part of parenting is pulling from your own experience and that's one area in which I intend to do so.

Would you break off a friendship if the other parent pierced their child's ears (or other body part)? What about spanking? What about not letting their kids eat meat? Or smoking in front of their kids?
Well, since I will be one of those ear piercing parents, obviously not. What other body part would possibly be pierced on an infant or child (realistically)? No idea how I feel about spanking. Not something I'd do, after the psychology classes I'd take, and I hope my friends are smart enough to realize the downsides to corporal punishment. I'm a strict vegetarian and will raise my kids as such, so once again, it would actually be awesome if I had friends who also raised their kids strict veg. Smoking in front of their kids would be a huge issue with my, but none of my close friends smoke, and I can't picture myself ever being friends with someone who would do something so damaging and stupid.

How much of a village does it take: where do we draw the line on what parents must be permitted to decide for themselves?
To be honest, there are many things that shouldn't be parental decisions, but are. Where do you draw the line? We can't exactly say when it interferes with the child's autonomy, because that's not a precise line. Not breastfeeding alters the child's body from the way it's supposed to. Not allowing a child to wean themselves alters their body. Vaccinating alters them. Not co-sleeping is unnatural, and could have consequences. Pushing them in a stroller is unnatural, what if it causes psychological problems?

I'm sure that 99% of MDCers agree that natural birth, long-term (1 year or more) breastfeeding, intactness, etc. are the ideal for a child. I happen to be one of them. However, it is entirely my decision to go that route. My opposition to circ has little to do with the issue of my future son's choice (because yes, it is a legal parental decision and has been a societal parental decision ever since circ originated), and everything to do with me choosing intactness for him, which is what I believe to be the best choice. If he has an issue with that as an adult, I'll believe I made the best choice in his interest. Therefore, it's not hard for me to justify being an anti-circer who will pierce DD's ears...as it stands in society, it is my decision. Just like in society, it is my decision to choose my DS's circ status. Ethically, should it be? That's a different debate. There are all sorts of intactivists.

[MommytoB]

Anti-circ and if I had a daughter . I would leave it up to her to say I want my ears pierced but for "her wants" not just because her friends have them & she wants to be like them.

I used to wear earring but oh they were such a pain for me it turned out I was actually allergic to a metal that had my earring hole continue to get infected that I hated wearing earrings.

Plus my sil whose the mother of my niece I think my sil may have her ears pierced but I'm unsure . So far everytime I take a peek at makayla ears to see if they are pierced and they are not.

When I was at Brendan's dr appt two weeks ago I saw a wee little baby proably about 8 wks old she had pierced ears said that the mall place did that so I was like oh wow speechless feeling.

[Cinder]

If you are anti-circ, are you also anti-pierce? If not, why not?

No, all of my kids can have their ear pierced when ever they ask for it (thus far, only Janelle, she asked every day for a year before we said yes though...actually we said "as soon as your potty trained you can have them pierced" without even thinking about it since we hadn't even TRIED to potty train her or even offer it as an option yet at that point...and she right then took off her diaper and said "ok I'm potty trained" and she was, not a single accident, even overnight, in over 6 months, and even then, it was wetting the bed post-op while on codeine)...if they want something other than their ears pierced they have to wait till 16 (at least, that's what we told Janelle when she asked for her eyebrow to be pierced when she was 3...), and if they want something more dangerous, like clit, tongue, labia, penile piercings, they are going to have to wait till they are old enough that I legally have no say in it. But if my sons want to be circ'd and ask us to have them circ'd and they are old enough to have researched and understand it we will allow that as well, it is their body and their choice, which is one of the biggest reasons we didn't do it at birth.

For what it's worth though, I hate ear rings for myself...haven't worn them since my wedding in 2001, and before that it was prom 1996.

Would you break off a friendship if the other parent pierced their child's ears (or other body part)? What about spanking? What about not letting their kids eat meat? Or smoking in front of their kids?

no, maybe...I don't see spanking as harmful the way most parents do it, I just see it as a very ineffective form of discipline that I completely disagree with., no, maybe, it's never come up, none of our friends with kids smoke... but I do not break off friendships over circumcision either.

[mama2soren]

I agree with some of the PP's. I would not end a friendship over ear piercing, even though I would not do it to my own child until s/he was old enough to consent to it. But, I would seriously question a friendship if said friend had her child's earlobes surgically removed at birth (and likely without sufficient anesthesia) because she thought normal earlobes looked gross.

[shishkeberry]

I don't know what I'd do if one of my friend's circ'd after knowing my feelings on it. I'm very lucky that all of my close friends with children have had girls so I haven't had to cross that bridge yet. I hope that I wouldn't cut them off over it, but I really don't know. I might distance myself, though. Because I know that if a friend of mine was having a boy, I'd be talking to them about leaving their sons intact. If a friend could still do it after having info....I just don't know.

Piercing is a whole other ball of wax. I agree with a PP who said that comparing the two trivializes circumcision. I wouldn't do either, but I think that circing is a million times worse. I think I'm pregnant with a girl right now and she would have to wait to have her ears pierced until she could ask for it and I could trust her to take care of them on her own.

[newmum35]

piercing ones ears may be a permanent alteration but it does not affect the normal functioning of the ear the way that circumcision affects the sexual function of the penis. No tissue is removed or cut away, no anesthetic needs to be used, the child does not need to be forcefully restrained since it literally takes just a few seconds; it is not a major surgery in the way that circumcision is and in my opinion there is NO comparison whatsoever between the two.

Having said that, I have a son, but IF I had a girl I would NOT pierce her ears until if/when she was a teenager and expressed a strong desire to do so. I think I would wait until at least age 12 or 13 when she would be old enough to make that decision herself, and we could discuss the pros and cons. Since its not a major surgery I feel that would be an appropriate age. Maybe even as early as 10 if I felt she was really mature for her age. If it were a boy who wanted circumcised I would probably say not until you are an adult and can make this decision for yourself (and do not need parental consent)

I would not break off relationships for any of the reasons you mention. Although it would be nice if everyone had the same values as me, I don't want to live in a world of robots where we all dress the same way, eat the same way, and all do the same exact things at the same time. We're all different and we need to respect that. I do not believe in being prejudiced and what you are describing (breaking off friendships if you don't agree with the parents choices) is a form of prejudice. However if it affected me personally in such a way so that my own health was affected (worrying about the child for example) I would feel the need to limit contact as much as possible without actually ending the relationship because the other parent was "different" than me. I would hope before that point however that I gave my best try to educate the other parent if I truly felt the child was in harms way (breathing in 2nd hand smoke on a daily basis for example)

[yara1]

After I came to extremely painful realization what I've done to my son by allowing to circumsize him, I will let my daughter to make her own choice whether to pierce her ears (belly-button...e.t.c.) or not, when she will be like 13, or so and be able to make such decisions...
The reason for that is - I want her to realize and internalize the whole idea "my body - my choice".

[tommynomad]

Originally Posted by newmum35

piercing ones ears may be a permanent alteration but it does not affect the normal functioning of the ear the way that circumcision affects the sexual function of the penis.

This is one of the anti-circ arguments that--as an intactivist myself--drives me batty, for several reasons.
1. There is no real way to measure this.
2. It makes the penis way more important than it really is in terms of sexual satisfaction: brains are way more vital to good sex than penises, but no one's suggesting that not giving kids Omega 3s is interfereing with their sexual happiness.
3. My personal experience as a proud slut (and that of like-minded libertines) does not support this. Indeed, among my friends who are the...recipients of penises, there is a strong preference for cut.

None of the above is an argument for circumcision, but I cannot see how sexual function can be an argument against it, since there's no way to know either way. I think we do our cause a disservice when we use such arguments, which I think are easily refuted.

I would not break off relationships for any of the reasons you mention. Although it would be nice if everyone had the same values as me, I don't want to live in a world of robots where we all dress the same way, eat the same way, and all do the same exact things at the same time. We're all different and we need to respect that. I do not believe in being prejudiced and what you are describing (breaking off friendships if you don't agree with the parents choices) is a form of prejudice. However if it affected me personally in such a way so that my own health was affected (worrying about the child for example) I would feel the need to limit contact as much as possible without actually ending the relationship because the other parent was "different" than me. I would hope before that point however that I gave my best try to educate the other parent if I truly felt the child was in harms way (breathing in 2nd hand smoke on a daily basis for example)

QFT.

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by tommynomad

This is one of the anti-circ arguments that--as an intactivist myself--drives me batty, for several reasons.
1. There is no real way to measure this.
2. It makes the penis way more important than it really is in terms of sexual satisfaction: brains are way more vital to good sex than penises, but no one's suggesting that not giving kids Omega 3s is interfereing with their sexual happiness.
3. My personal experience as a proud slut (and that of like-minded libertines) does not support this. Indeed, among my friends who are the...recipients of penises, there is a strong preference for cut.

None of the above is an argument for circumcision, but I cannot see how sexual function can be an argument against it, since there's no way to know either way. I think we do our cause a disservice when we use such arguments, which I think are easily refuted.

okay, at the risk of being snarky, how could it function normally when it is no longer normal? to me, it's just a given that it doesn't function normally. and if it was normal, why do so many need extra lubrication so many men need erectile dysfunction meds? and, yes, there is a way to test it, although i don't think intact men will necessarily sign up for this kind of testing.

Originally Posted by tommynomad

QFT.

what is this?

sus

[ursaminor]

Circumcision does in fact change the way a penis functions, and circumcision does in fact have a sexual affect. The intact penis has moving parts. Circumcision removes thousands of nerve endings, the ridged band, in many cases the frenulum and much of the mucous membrane, and what mucosa is left becomes keratinized and dry. basically what is left is a rod with a ball end - No gliding action. When this gliding action of the penis in and out of its own skin shaft is taken away, it loses it's own self-lubricating effect.

In my experiences, sex with circumcised partners became very uncomfortable and abrasive after awhile. There was more of a need for lubricant.

[Fyrestorm]

You've turned a piston into a stick - of course it's not going to function as designed.

[ramama]

As far as friendships are concerned, it would depend on how much else we have in common, and whether we can both keep our views to ourselves. I will not berate a mother for circing or piercing, and I expect the reverse to be true as well (as in, no comments about how intact penises are "gross" or whatever). Now, if a parent circs, smokes, spanks, AND is, say, anti-breastfeeding (not simply FFing, but ANTI-BFing) then I really don't see how we would even have the opportunity for friendship in the first place. I know for a fact that some moms in the neighborhood thought of me as the local weirdo for BFing toddlers, cloth diapering, bed-sharing, baby-wearing, and for my staunch refusal to BEAT my children (literally, one mother suggested I use a belt on my DD and lock her in her room, when DD was FOUR years old!). I suppose I tend to repel some people, so I never have to cut off friendships for the above reasons.

[Monkeygrrl]

Originally Posted by tommynomad

If you are anti-circ, are you also anti-pierce? If not, why not?
Would you break off a friendship if the other parent pierced their child's ears (or other body part)? What about spanking? What about not letting their kids eat meat? Or smoking in front of their kids?

I am anti-circ. For my kids.
I am anti-piercing until the child has asked for it. For my kids.
I am anti-spanking. For my kids
I am ok with meat eating. For my kids and family.
I am anti-smoking. For my kids and family.

What other people choose for their families is their business, as long as it doesn't infringe upon my rights to choose what I think is right for my own family. I will not break friendships with families that do these things (or don't do them) - that's not what I base my friendships on. My friends and I might have discussions about these things, and why we do or don't do some things - but they are not deal breakers for me.

peace...
Margaret

[mamadelbosque]

I'm anti-circ, and anti-piercing, but I don't have girls so its easy Of course, I didn't get my ears pierced till I was in college (and it was halfway a joke on DH - would he notice when we came back that my ears were pierced? Nope. ), and I still only rarely wear earings (of course, *THAT* is largely cause' my boys are still in the 'oh look, sparkly!' stage and its way freaking obnoxious to keep telling them 'no' or have my earings pulled out and lost!!).

But, neither one is anything close to a 'make or break' issue with friends. I honestly don't have a 'make or break' issue. We're around people who spank, people who circ, who pierce ears, etc all the time. If we weren't, we wouldn't have any friends around here. Maybe its possible to be that selective of friends if you live in a city, but around here its just not. Not if you want friends, anyhow!!

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by tommynomad

This is one of the anti-circ arguments that--as an intactivist myself--drives me batty, for several reasons.
1. There is no real way to measure this.
2. It makes the penis way more important than it really is in terms of sexual satisfaction: brains are way more vital to good sex than penises, but no one's suggesting that not giving kids Omega 3s is interfereing with their sexual happiness.
3. My personal experience as a proud slut (and that of like-minded libertines) does not support this. Indeed, among my friends who are the...recipients of penises, there is a strong preference for cut.

1. There may be no real way to "measure" it, but there are a growing number of men doing foreskin restoration, and I've never heard of one who was unhappy with it. Yes - I've heard of men who have chosen to circ as adults who preferred that - but I've also heard the reverse (had a circ, and hated it), and I've never heard a guy talk about how he feels about his adult circ several years after the fact. So...aside from the simple fact that a nerve-ending rich, functioning, piece of the penis is removed, the anecodtal evidence tends to suggest that circ does, in fact, affect sexual satisfaction for the man.

2. Giving the penis too much importance? I don't have one, so I can't say, but the vast majority of men I meet find their penis pretty freaking important in terms of sexual satisfaction. And, I don't buy this argument, anyway. I don't know what the nerve damage from circ is like, but I've experienced the effect of nerve damage on my sex life, and it has nothing to do with putting "too much importance" on my vagina or clitoris. It has to do with the fact that those body parts simply weren't capable of functioning properly, and that affected my sexual satisfaction.

3. That's interesting. I've heard that online before. However, every woman I know irl who has been with both vastly prefers intact. They all say the sex is better. Those women I've talked to - all online - who say they prefer cut are almost always basing that purely on appearances (and they find cut more attractive, because that's what they're used to) or on one experience with an intact guy who had poor hygiene. If I were going to use that as my barometer, I wouldn't go near a cut guy, yk? I have no opinion on the matter, as the rampant cutting of newborn genitals in the late 60s/early 70s didn't leave a very large pool of intact men to choose from.

None of the above is an argument for circumcision, but I cannot see how sexual function can be an argument against it, since there's no way to know either way. I think we do our cause a disservice when we use such arguments, which I think are easily refuted.

I've never seen/head those arguments refuted, except by "we can't know". In an objective sense, there is evidence that circ makes a difference, as the function of the intact penis is pretty well documented. I already mentioned the subjective/anecdotal side of it above.


[quoted]QFT.[/QUOTE]
Since someone asked, I believe this is "quoted for truth".

[treeoflife3]

I am anti circ and anti piercing.

I am also anti smoking and anti spanking. I hope to eventually move my family to a mostly vegan diet but I can't really say I am anti meat... I just strongly prefer no meat most of the time.

I wouldn't end a friendship for any of these things but I might change how much time I spend with friends who do these, specifically spanking and smoking. I don't want my daughter to see spanking nor do I want her near someone who might still have smoke clinging to them even if they don't smoke in their house or are at my house. It also depends on how much, how often, etc.

If I am just getting to know someone and deciding if I want to be friends with them, any one of these (except the meat... I'd have more issues with mostly processed packaged food diets actually) could be the straw that makes my decision for me or if most or all of these are present among other things I as a parent don't support that might change my mind from 'she seems nice!' to 'well maybe we have little in common, so is it worth it?' but if an old friend or someone I already enjoy spending time with and talking to does any one of these things, then so be it. I won't keep my opinions secret but I won't make my opinions a source of stress either.

I'd rather not let something like circ or pierced ears make a good friendship go to nonexistant. If they ask, I'll tell them I don't like it and won't be doing it with my kids and why, but unless it is someone I'm deciding on friendship or not, that'll be the end of it. Both are legal currently and both have sources of culture and religion on their side so my opinion ultimately doesn't matter. I don't like either of them and circ brings me to near tears but I don't get a say and ending a good friendship over something legal isn't worth it to me.

[Arduinna]

I'm totally unconcerned about boomerang effect. It's a free country, and I don't care if people agree with my parenting decisions, nor do I seek their approval.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm

You've turned a piston into a stick - of course it's not going to function as designed.

best analogy I've read here in all my time posting.

[KGB]

I am ANTI-infant circ and ANTI-infant piercing.

For me, it all boils down to consent. Parents should NOT have the right to alter the bodies of their sons or daughters without their consent (barring any type of life or death emergency procedure).

People can argue that ear piercings aren't nearly as bad or traumatic as a circumcision, but that still doesn't make it right. Body-altering procedures are mostly done for the parent's benefit, not the child's. (I want him to look like his daddy or my daughter will look cute in those earrings). It's all COSMETIC.

Why stop at ear piercings? What if parents want to do lobe stretching with their infant's ears? What about tattoos? Those would be frowned upon or illegal here, but for some reason ear piercing is still OK even though it causes pain, inflicts an open wound, and has risks of scarring and infection.

If I have a daughter, I will wait until she wants her ears pierced and she is at an age where she's brave enough to sit through the procedure. I see it as a right of passage. Something that she and her mother can share when she's old enough. I don't want to take that away from her because I wanted her to look like a doll when she was a baby.

[Carlyle]

Originally Posted by tommynomad

If you are anti-circ, are you also anti-pierce? If not, why not?
Would you break off a friendship if the other parent pierced their child's ears (or other body part)? What about spanking? What about not letting their kids eat meat? Or smoking in front of their kids?
How much of a village does it take: where do we draw the line on what parents must be permitted to decide for themselves?

Fascinating question, and interesting comparisons.

I think both circ and spanking should be illegal, but wouldn't (and haven't) shunned friends who do either (although I do tend to feel closer to friends who don't circ or spank...largely because thinking about it makes me really really sad). Sometimes it's just lack of resources or knowledge that make a parent do the things that they do.

Ear piercing I couldn't really care less about, strangely enough (even though I will wait for dd to ask me for it before doing it to her). It's so not-comparable to circ in my mind that I don't find it hypocritical at all. Circ is cutting off an irreplaceable and functioning body part in your child's GENITALS. For me, that increases my horror. This is kids' "privates" and people are not only touching it without permission, they're cutting a piece of it off. Yikes! Even if someone cut off their child's earlobe because it was the cultural norm somewhere, I'd probably think "gross," but I'd get over it faster than the sadness I find with circ. Their ear would still work the same, and it's not a piece of their genitals for goodness sake.

Circ is somehow the worst though...it's just so ... so wrong in my mind! It's not a slip up of "ack, I have this bad habit and it's hurting my kids (smoking)" or "oops, I got really pissed off and spanked my kid because nobody ever taught me other ways of dealing," etc.... It's choosing to deliberately and permanently cut off a functioning piece of a child's genitals because ... well, WHY? I'll never understand that. We certainly need better information out there for many families in making this decision, but frankly, it's just bizarre to me that it is even an option....it wasn't started to increase men's "beauty," it was started as a way to discourage masturbation!