Kids had standardized tests today; I just need to talk some stuff through

[annettemarie]

My third and fifth graders had their state-mandated achievement tests today. One of the moms in our homeschool group has her doctorate in education, so we worked hard this year to raise the money to buy her the materials and training needed to distribute the Peabody test, which is mainly oral with one 20 minute writing portion.

Now, I have an elementary and secondary teaching certificate, and I've always thought standardized tests were crap. I wouldn't give them to my kids if I didn't have to. However, I really trust the administrator and we talked a little about the results, and I wanted to talk them through here as well. To be honest, I'm really less concerned with the actual scores (I only included them here in case they were important) and more concerned with gaps/comments made by the administrator.

My son (just finished 5th) did really well. His reading stuff was in the 99.9% and scored at 12+ grade level. Math was somewhere in 9th grade territory and general knowledge in the 7th somewhere. He didn't score very well in the writing.

My daughter (3rd) was pretty solidly average on reading, and in the middle of 4th grade on math. Her spelling was low-- she scored at the beginning of 3rd grade even though she's completing third-- and her writing was just bad. I saw it, and she didn't even manage to write straight on the lines, the spelling was poor, and she doesn't seem to have a grasp of basic conventions like capitalization, punctuation, etc. She scored better on general knowledge than her brother.

So, a couple questions.

1. She said my son probably could have gone further, but he just kind of zones out when it's not interesting to him. When his IQ was tested in first grade, the psychologist actually said the same thing-- he just came to a point where you could see his mindset changed to "Meh. You bore me." and he just stopped engaging. On the one hand, I get it. On the other hand, this is something I see everyday in his schooling as well and I'm wondering if this is something I need to deal with, or if it's enough to just let him follow his joy. Does he need to learn to suck it up and learn stuff/do stuff even when he's not interested? My Type A side says "heck, yes" but I don't know. Maybe 11 is too young?

2. She also didn't seem too stressed out about the spelling. She said some kids are good spellers, some aren't, and that in an age of spellcheck it didn't matter that much. She said there's a school of thought that you can teach bad spellers to be good spellers, but that she didn't think that was necessarily true. I'll admit, I want her to be a better speller. What do you all think? What spelling program do you recommend? I feel like this is a "dropped stitch," educationally speaking.

3. She also said that there have been studies (???) showing that homeschoolers typically are weak in writing. We don't tend to go through a specific "process" so kids aren't doing drafts, etc. Again, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well as any ideas for writing programs or methods that you like.

[Dar]

In no particular order...

I like the Avko spelling program. I used it with a third grader I was tutoring, and I've also known a number of homeschoolers who liked it. That said, most homeschooled kids I've known have become much better spellers when they hit their teens and begin to to a lot more writing online - messaging, posting, blogging, creating websites, etc.

I do think young homeschooled kids tend to do less writing than schooled kids, because written assignments are really the primary way teachers assess knowledge - it's just not reasonable to expect them to speak individually with 20 kids about something many times a day. There are exceptions, of course... and, as above, I have found that a lot of homeschooled kids shoot ahead in writing as preteens or teens, as they start to spread their wings and do more "real" writing, something they have more opportunity to do than most schooled kids *because* they don't have to do written assignments aimed only at assessing basic knowledge. In other words, the same factors that lead them to write less as younger kids allow them to write more as older kids.

As far as #1... I know we have totally different ways of schooling, but my kid did tend to give up on doing stuff when she lost interest at 11, but after adolescence she became much more focused on long-term goals, and would then "suck it up" and do stuff she wasn't interested in if she could see the long-term benefit.

Although, with something like testing... maybe there is no long-term benefit to him to doing as well as he could? The testing was to fulfill state requirements, so as long as he's average or above, that part is taken care of and you're good to keep homeschooling, right?

[caefi]

My aunt is an Eng major, who taught high school. She now tutors homeschoolers and teaches English for a high school co-op. She sees it everyday - the lack of writing skills for these homeschoolers. Some have been in school, some have not. She uses a combination of Shurley English and IEW for her instruction. My children take her classes and are wonderful writers - better than I could have ever taught them!

It does seem that somehow that gets neglected along the way. I think it's an important skill for college-bound students to have.

[kittywitty]

I am just like your ds. I score really high IQ wise and (pre baby brain) was a reading genius. However, I had the same problems. If it's not interesting, I just don't care and won't learn it. The good news is though I was never even able to divide in my head in school, I found physics classes I loved in college and learned a lot of math because then...it was interesting. I would approach it not in a "you have to" way, but find a way that's interesting to him. Because really, he's already statistically advanced, so there's no need to push too hard.

It sounds like they're doing really good. Have you had your daughter tested for visual or reading issues? It could be a problem, or she could just be someone who isn't great at spelling. I know many people like that who are perfectly literate.

[lach]

I spent a few years working as a tutor specializing in writing, history, and art, and ended up basically specializing in homeschooled kids. I had 3 kids who were in 8th or 9th grade and suddenly their parents (all different families) realized that their writing skills were not up to snuff to transition to a traditional high school, which is what all three kids were doing.

I think Dar hit the nail on the head with the reason why these 3 kids had issues. They were all very confident and could hold a conversation like nobody's business, but when it came to applying thoughts to paper in a logical and competent way, they were lost. Their analytical work had pretty much always been oral, and, unfortunately, writing a readable essay isn't actually as easy as "just write down what you were going to say!"

Their research skills weren't particularly impressive either, but not any worse than most traditionally schooled kids: please don't cite Google as a source, kids! So that's another issue that research nerds such as myself shake my head at and mutter "kids today." I just thought it was kind of related so I mentioned it

I'll make it clear that 3 kids definitely don't constitute some sort of proof that this is a huge problem with homeschoolers. I also worked with kids who were perfectly at grade level or above. I just thought I'd agree that Dar had a good point.

Another thing to keep in mind that the sort of writing that standardized tests ask for is not necessarily the type of writing that you're really interested in promoting. They really want the good old basic five paragraph essay: beginning, three points, conclusion (AP exams want a lot more than 5 paragraphs, but still basically the same simple is better idea). They don't want to see purple prose or creative metaphors or anything fancy. They just want to see that you have a point, that you can prove it, and that you can tie it altogether.

While this (and all standardize testing) is pretty boring, it is how the system works and I think that pretending otherwise does a disservice to the kids who have to work through that system. The schools I went to always pushed standardized tests, and I took one or two a year every year but junior high. It drove my hippy, educational-reformist parents crazy, but I have to say that it really taught me how to work the system, so that by the time I took my PSATs, my SATs, and then my LSATs a few years later, I could ace a standardized test blindfolded with one hand behind my back. I don't attribute this to being particularly smart, just having LOTS of practice taking these sorts of tests. I can recognize the little tricks a mile away, and am really good at guessing correct answers. And though in a perfect world these scores don't matter, in the real world they got me some nice grants and scholarships! Now, I'm sure someone will pipe in about their child who aced the SATs even though they'd never seen a scantron sheet before, and I'll just say that that child is probably a lot smarter than most of us can ever hope to be!

As for your son, he sounds pretty normal in terms of not doing what he doesn't want to. I do think kids need to learn that sometimes you have to do crummy drudge work that you don't want to do. Otherwise, when they start their first office job as a glorified coffee-getter and data-enterer they're going to have a tough time. I don't think that there's any rush to tech this in elementary school, but I think high school age kids should understand that life isn't always an amazing journey of interesting self-discovery. Sometimes, you just have to suck it up and do what your boss tells you and fill out the right colored TPS reports and do it all competently and with a smile on your face (here's where I'll duck, because I KNOW that people here will disagree).

I think that starting in about middle school (6th or 7th grade), it wouldn't be a bad idea to start nudging him to think about the future. I'm not saying he needs to turn into a little gunner (I specifically wrote pushing, and then changed it to nudging), but if he plans on going to college it is a long term goal that he should be thinking about. Many colleges want to see a fairly set high school curriculum, and 7th and 8th grade is when he'll need to get up to speed to make sure that he can take algebra, chemistry, read adult literature, and so forth. Your son sounds pretty amazing so none of this actually sounds like it will be an issue! Just something to think about.

[Just1More]

As far as relaxed writing practice, we write lots of letters to Grandma around here. (And cousins, etc.) I fully expect that to transition to letters to the editor, etc.

[One_Girl]

Have you looked at your state's standards for writing. Students tend to learn how to write different types of papers in different grades and knowing the types they learn and the steps that they take to do so may help you plan for more writing. As students go up to different grade levels, and especially in college, writing becomes an essential subject to have mastered. Since they each have subjects where they are so high, maybe you could lighten up on the requirements for those subjects for a while and increase the requirements for writing to help pull them up.

My teachers described me the same way you are describing your son when it came to learning, except writing was my strong point and math was a little weak. I loved my teachers, was nudged to do better, and had the ability to do the work I didn't enjoy, but I didn't have the desire and there really wasn't anything that motivated me to do it other than my mom making me do it. Even as an adult I had a hard time really caring if I get a few C's in a subject that I don't enjoy or excel at because I have a great GPA overall and I have many other things I would rather do. A possible D or a grade that was so low that it would make it difficult for me to pursue the degree I wanted did motivate me, but if I was doing okay I still couldn't work up more motivation. I think that there are some things that are just not internally motivating and as parents we have to decide whether the skill is important enough in the long run to warrant the use of external motivation.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Dar

I do think young homeschooled kids tend to do less writing than schooled kids, because written assignments are really the primary way teachers assess knowledge - it's just not reasonable to expect them to speak individually with 20 kids about something many times a day.

I think Dar is bang-on with this. In school kids are trained to be relatively precocious writers in the early grades, because using student written work as an evaluation tool simplifies the teacher's job. Homeschooled kids typically don't get that training. Instead they might be precocious in reading, or rhetoric, or music, or dance, or mathematics, or animal husbandry, or physics, or whatever it is that their world revolves around.

I wouldn't put too much stock in it. Kids tend to do well at what they do lots of. In school kids write a lot. Homeschooled kids don't need to write a lot, and they might therefore excel in other areas. No biggie: different priorities.

IMO/IME writing can be taught far more efficiently to a motivated teen than to an 8-year-old.

Miranda

[Viola]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

2. She also didn't seem too stressed out about the spelling. She said some kids are good spellers, some aren't, and that in an age of spellcheck it didn't matter that much.

Not as homeschooler, as you know, but this idea would bug me. Spell check really doesn't help in so many cases. And I think the thing with spelling is it's largely a matter of memory and recognition and actually asking or knowing how to look something up, so the idea that you don't need to know how to spell seems often to indicate you are giving up the things that happen to lead to good spelling, which would be my main concern, more than the spelling itself.

But I think it's normal not to be a great speller at this age, my 11 year old has been a rather poor speller, which was fine with me to a point, because I want her to get her ideas across first. She seems to have improved a lot in the past year, however, as she has expanded her reading materials.

[mangopassion]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

My third and fifth graders had their state-mandated achievement tests today. One of the moms in our homeschool group has her doctorate in education, so we worked hard this year to raise the money to buy her the materials and training needed to distribute the Peabody test, which is mainly oral with one 20 minute writing portion.

Now, I have an elementary and secondary teaching certificate, and I've always thought standardized tests were crap. I wouldn't give them to my kids if I didn't have to. However, I really trust the administrator and we talked a little about the results, and I wanted to talk them through here as well. To be honest, I'm really less concerned with the actual scores (I only included them here in case they were important) and more concerned with gaps/comments made by the administrator.

My son (just finished 5th) did really well. His reading stuff was in the 99.9% and scored at 12+ grade level. Math was somewhere in 9th grade territory and general knowledge in the 7th somewhere. He didn't score very well in the writing.

My daughter (3rd) was pretty solidly average on reading, and in the middle of 4th grade on math. Her spelling was low-- she scored at the beginning of 3rd grade even though she's completing third-- and her writing was just bad. I saw it, and she didn't even manage to write straight on the lines, the spelling was poor, and she doesn't seem to have a grasp of basic conventions like capitalization, punctuation, etc. She scored better on general knowledge than her brother.

So, a couple questions.

1. She said my son probably could have gone further, but he just kind of zones out when it's not interesting to him. When his IQ was tested in first grade, the psychologist actually said the same thing-- he just came to a point where you could see his mindset changed to "Meh. You bore me." and he just stopped engaging. On the one hand, I get it. On the other hand, this is something I see everyday in his schooling as well and I'm wondering if this is something I need to deal with, or if it's enough to just let him follow his joy. Does he need to learn to suck it up and learn stuff/do stuff even when he's not interested? My Type A side says "heck, yes" but I don't know. Maybe 11 is too young?

2. She also didn't seem too stressed out about the spelling. She said some kids are good spellers, some aren't, and that in an age of spellcheck it didn't matter that much. She said there's a school of thought that you can teach bad spellers to be good spellers, but that she didn't think that was necessarily true. I'll admit, I want her to be a better speller. What do you all think? What spelling program do you recommend? I feel like this is a "dropped stitch," educationally speaking.

3. She also said that there have been studies (???) showing that homeschoolers typically are weak in writing. We don't tend to go through a specific "process" so kids aren't doing drafts, etc. Again, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well as any ideas for writing programs or methods that you like.

I didn't get to read all the responses so far, but I'll reply anyway...

1. Both of my children are like this. I'm like this, too. If something doesn't interest me, I have to try really hard to focus on it. For instance, my dad is a coin collector; and while I love my dad, and would love to hear about his passions, sometimes it takes A LOT for me to pay attention to what he is saying. I would say that it would be enough to let your son follow his joy... to a certain point. Still do a broad overview of things you think he should know, but maybe don't drill him. Allow him to follow his own interests, but require the work. Have you heard of project based learning?

2. My daughter was like this when I first pulled her out of school. She is not a natural speller like I am. It's hard for me to "get" her because it's so easy for me to spell a word, even if I've never seen it before. When I first started homeschooling her, we used AVKO's Sequential Spelling. I thought it was cool at first because she was spelling longer words (ie: installment, contraction, batteries); but then I started to realize that she couldn't spell simpler words (ie: pillow, family, home). I concluded that she didn't have the basics down and that's when I decided to switch her to something with more of the foundation that she needed. I was SO HAPPY when I found All-About-Spelling. We started with Level One and she zoomed through it. Now she'll soon be doing Level Three. I'm sure if we were more "regular" with it, she'd be on Level Four by now. She can remember the spelling rules and can often figure out how something is spelled because of what she has learned even though she is not a natural speller. I'm extremely happy with it.

3. I have been told countless times that homeschooled kids are notorious for being bad writers (both penmanship and composition). I have been lucky that CherryPie (11 years old) writes very well. I've often wondered if it's because she's really artistic and therefore that extends to her handwriting (??), I'm not sure. Even though her writing is beautiful, I did want her to have a formal writing program. At first we used Getty Dubay because she likes my handwriting and it is very similar to how I write -- not really a cursive, but more of an italic. She ended up not really liking the curriculum, so I bought her Handwriting Without Tears instead. She seems to like this one. For composition, we are using Michael Clay Thompson's language arts program. I am also a very strong believer in doing copy work, narration, and dictation a la Charlotte Mason.

I hope you're able to find something that works for you without causing you too much stress. I'm sure you're very tired these days. Let me know if you want more info. on any of the things that I mentioned.

[mangopassion]

sorry... double post.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

3. She also said that there have been studies (???) showing that homeschoolers typically are weak in writing. We don't tend to go through a specific "process" so kids aren't doing drafts, etc. Again, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well as any ideas for writing programs or methods that you like.

former homeschooler here --

my kids started school at 10 and 12 after having always been relaxed homeschoolers. Writing was the only subject they were behind in. One of my DDs has mild sn, so I'll leave her out of this, but my gifted DD really struggled with writing as quickly as the other kids and it was a big issue the first year she was in school. Her slow writing speed meant that for the first few months she was in school, she brought most of her school work home every single day because she could only complete a fraction of what the other kids could.

Kids at school just write SOOOOO much. There' s really no way I could have gotten my kids to do that much writing as homeschoolers without completely nixing our entire homeschooling style. It really is a skill based on *just doing it.*

I think that how much it will just all come together for a child as they get older really depends on the child. For some it will, and for some it won't. And for some it will take a lot of work. It's kind of a gamble.

I don't know that I would do anything different, though. The way we homeschooled felt right to me at the time, and the push to catch up their writing was appropriate for their ages when they started school.

[MissRubyandKen]

I agree with previous poster's that a lot of homeschool teachers don't require the amount of writing of their students that they would do in a brick and mortar school. I know I haven't. My children are 8 and 10. They are advanced beyond grade level in Reading, Math, and Spelling. However their Handwriting and Writing is not good. My 10 year old dd's writing isn't terrible, just not good. This really hasn't bothered me, but I have recognized it as something to work on next school year, especially with the 10 year old. I am starting them both on the Writing With Ease Level 1 workbook next year. I am also starting them both on AVKO's Sequential Spelling Level 1 and Simply Grammar next year. They haven't done any formal spelling or grammar before. I think it will be good for them.

I wouldn't stress about the test results, it actually sounds like they did great. I would probably start the older child to writing a bit more one way or another and possibly look into Sequential Spelling or All About Spelling for both children for next year. This is one of the really good things about homeschooling. We can tweak requirements and curriculum as we become aware of our child's strengths and weaknesses.

[kittywitty]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

Kids at school just write SOOOOO much. There' s really no way I could have gotten my kids to do that much writing as homeschoolers without completely nixing our entire homeschooling style. It really is a skill based on *just doing it.*

Is this new? Until high school, I only ever wrote maybe once a year for school book reports except "writing workshop" like things we had rarely to reteach us how to write a paragraph after 4th grade, otherwise it was fill in the blank or multiple choice.

And until my brain seems to have quit, I was an exceptional writer through high school and college.

Annettemarie-there are good writing programs out there for kids. Writing Strands, If You're Trying to Teach Kids to Write, etc. My kids write stories and books all the time so I'm not really worried, but I've looked through these and they're fun and teach a lot.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by kittywitty

Is this new? Until high school, I only ever wrote maybe once a year for school book reports except "writing workshop" like things we had rarely to reteach us how to write a paragraph after 4th grade, otherwise it was fill in the blank or multiple choice.

yes and no.

No - Kids do a a lot of handwriting as part of their regular school work (as I did in school) that as homeschoolers we just talked about. The homeschooled child has the advantage of more complex thoughts and interaction, but the schooled child get more practice with handwriting, basic conventions, spelling common words, etc. Complete sentences are the norm.

Yes - Writing is part of the required standardized testing in most states, so kids are writing 5 paragraph essays, extended responses to math problems, etc. in middle elementary school. They start working on extended response to math questions weekly in 2nd grade at our school. I'm not sure when they start working on paragraphs, but 4th graders are expected to write 5 paragraph essays. Fifth graders at our school crank them out all the time.

My kids attend an excellant school with good test scores, so a school that is considered to be struggling or in a state that doesn't test writing would most likely do less.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by kittywitty

Is this new? Until high school, I only ever wrote maybe once a year for school book reports except "writing workshop" like things we had rarely to reteach us how to write a paragraph after 4th grade, otherwise it was fill in the blank or multiple choice.

Even fill in the blanks counts as writing. A typical day in 3rd grade here involves a bit of spelling dictation, a couple of sentences written in the daily journal, short answer and fill in the blank answers in a social studies quiz, collaboratively writing out or copying down objectives, experimental design, observations, sources of error and conclusion for a science experiment -- in a very rudimentary way, but writing them nonetheless -- and a few math word problems answered in brief sentence form. All told maybe an hour and a half of actual writing. Little of it is assigned in order to "teach writing," but it's all practice. Day in and day out it's a heck of a lot more than what my kids do at home.

Miranda

[Skim]

Your kids sound like they (and you!) are doing fine.

However... the thing about your dd not being able to write straight on the line really jumped out at me. That can be a red flag for eye teaming/tracking issues. My own dd1 has/had severe eye teaming and tracking problems we corrected with vision therapy. And once her eyes worked together, her writing not only improved, but also she was able to write in a straight line. She is now 8, and jumped from reading at a first grade level to reading 7th grade vocabulary by the end of her therapy.

You may want to consider having a developmental optometrist knowledgeable about vision therapy screen her for visual processing and eye teaming issues.

[eclipse]

I think that, for my kids, writing is the only area that their skills don't match up to their other abilities. However, I think the content of my ds' writing is probably above grade level, when he does it on the computer. His handwriting is awful and when his writing can't keep up with his brain, the content really suffers. I always think my dd has issues with writing too, but when she went to one of the classes offered by my charter, the teacher for the class suggested moving her in with the 3rd-5th group, thinking she was a 2nd grader (she's 6), so i wonder if my standards might be too high.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by eclipse

I always think my dd has issues with writing too, but when she went to one of the classes offered by my charter, the teacher for the class suggested moving her in with the 3rd-5th group, thinking she was a 2nd grader (she's 6), so i wonder if my standards might be too high.

I think writing is the most difficult subject for a homeschooling parent to figure out how their child compares to their peers. With something like math or reading, you can tell pretty easily if they are more or less at grade level, but what does a 3th grade level story look like? What does a solid 5 paragraph essay look like for a 5th grader?

I find it interesting to talk to my kids' teachers about how their writing compares to their classmates.

[2xy]

WRT spelling, I really believe that it's a talent of sorts. For some reason, if people aren't geniuses at math, people are understanding, but they can't understand people who can't spell. I know lots of people who are above average in intelligence and can't spell to save their lives....and it's not for lack of practice or trying, or depending on spellcheck.