losing faith in "unschooling", 8yo son resists EVERYTHING - Page 2

[SundayCrepes]

Prior posters have given you some good things to think about. I want to sort of tell you how we're doing things to see if anything we do would be applicable in your situation.

First, you may find this article on unschoolers and reading VERY enlightening:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...hemselves-read

We are unschoolers, though we're not on the radical end of the spectrum. Our 4 year old has to help me throughout the day and he has to choose an after dinner clean up chore. Recently he wanted a special new toy. He had to clean up dog poop and garbage in the yard to earn it. We limit his TV viewing (documentaries while his sister is napping.) He doesn't play computer/video games, etc. I will also use these guides to monitor his progress: http://www.fun-books.com/books/livin...ing_guides.htm If there are skills that I think he needs, I will introduce them. But I will try and do it in a way that he would find fun.

I do believe in delayed academics, in general, so won't have many worries about anything until age 7 or so.

Peter Gray has written a number of articles about unschooling for psychologytoday.com. Here is the link to all those articles:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/searc...ling&x=13&y=10

Here's a Peter Gray article about math:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...r-own-learning

To develop a love of science in my son, I have been doing random science experiments with him. Since he's so little, they can be simple--mixing baking soda and vinegar, making 2 identical "icebergs" and melting one in water and one on the counter. I don't talk about theory (much,) we just do the experiments and say, "how cool is that." He loved the experiment in making an ice cream float (though we used frozen yogurt and carbonated juice) http://thehappyscientist.com/science...ice-cream-foam When we're doing something IRL, for example when we put worms in the garden I said, "I wonder how worms dig holes?" I looked that up on the internet and shared it with him. I role modeled being interested in more info and researching it. If you now ask him, "How do worms dig holes?" he exuberantly exclaims, "They don't dig holes, they EAT holes."

I've also been buying lots of books. LOTS of Magic School Bus books. I've got a thread going about history and social sciences books for recommendations for a 4 year old. We just read. READ, READ, READ. OMG then we read some more. Sometimes I think we read an hour or two a day. And when you're reading the same magic school bus (to 4 year old) and Sandra Boynton (to 21 month old) over and over, it seems to go on forever.

So I suggest just read to your son. Read to all your kids. Find books that they will all enjoy and do family reading time. You read to them, let them read to you, whatever. And do research on the internet on what you read. "We just read that frogs hibernate in mud under the pond. I wonder how they breathe?" Then look it up. When your son shows interest in something suggest he watch a youtube video on the subject or pose a question he could ask on the internet.

Maybe he just doesn't know how to act on his passions. Show him how to do it. Maybe he doesn't know there are interesting things out there. Show him how to find them.

[zoebird]

you have a lot of *shoulds* in your post. a lot of *shoulds* for you, a lot of *shoulds* for him. time to step out of that and figure out what *needs* to happen for everyone to be happy.

i'm going to put out some suggestions, feel free to disregard *all* of them. or, accept all of them. or some or whatever. ok?

1. for people who definitely need to be on board, it would be a good idea to approach them about what unschooling is. i would count your DS's therapists in this, because they need to understand how *you* are evaluating his academic success vis a vis his peers. because, he does have academic success.

i would also count his bio-dad, assuming he is going to stay involved. since you are the one with primary custody and so on and so forth, you assert that this is what you are doing, that this is what DS will be doing, and that the evidences of it's benefit is in his daily behavior over the long term. a non-academic track creates success for him.

2. take a page from waldorf/steiner--create structure without strictures by utilizing a rhythm.

a rhythm asserts that everything will be done in due time, in the right time, and consistently. creating a rhythm creates a sense of security because everything will happen--time for play and time for rest, time for work and time for celebration, time for alone time and time as a family and time with friends. everything has it's own timing.

A. it starts by looking at the family rhythms for sleep and food. then, you create a rhythm in between these times. the rhythm will alternate between active and restful, between indoors and out.

there is a daily rhythm, a weekly rhythm, and a seasonal rhythm as well. each of these takes into consideration the needs of everyone in the family, and creates a sense of expectation and a fulfillment of those expectations.

you say that your life feels changable and that you can't keep it strict. don't. it's just a rhythm and the time itself doesn't matter. it doesn't mean that every day at 11 Lunch happens. it just means that every day, this happens because it is a need for everyone. there is fudge-factor for things like "because of this seasonal celebration, there was no lunch today and everyone feasted via grazing all day!" or "today we visited a friend, and we got back late, so lunch happened a bit later than normal." but there is still lunch.

for examples of rhythms, check out the waldorf forum. we talk about it a fair bit.

3. get outside.

the great outdoors are the best education without academics. seriously, a kid can learn a lot outside. and it's fun. and it is healing. and they burn off a lot of energy out there. if you have a yard, set it up as a place where they can explore and play and plant. waldorf has information on this as well--as most waldorf schools focus on outdoor time in gardens and wild spaces.

with our son, he gets 2-4 hrs outside every day. without it, he is frustrated and acts out that frustration through his body. so, the more outside time he gets, the better it is for everyone. i build 2-4 hrs of outdoor time into our daily rhythm, and one weekends, i try to get even more time than that. this past weekend, we spent 6 hrs outside ach day.

and we do this in all weather, so rain gear and woolies are essential. last year (DS was just 14-15 months), we all played in a blizzard and had a blast. we were warm, we played and played and then came in and had hot soup, a warm bath, and warm jammies. DS fell asleep before we got to the story he was so exhausted. LOL! we went to bed early too.

since your son only wants to ride his bike and play--let him do it, and let him do it outside. he'll learn a great deal and enjoy the process. when he is ready, he will take up things that are less active.

4. scrapbooks and progress reports--

to help you better see what your son does accomplish and is learning, keep a journal of his progress.

again from waldorf, the process is really not one of grades, but of the teacher observing how the child is doing and then informing the parents.

i think it works well for unschoolers (and many homeschoolers) because they, then, have a record of the progress and achievements. when grandma comes over, she can look at a weekly/monthly/whatever report of what has happened over that time AND she can look at photos of the projects, or drawings from the kids, or whatever else is in the scrap book as well. you can clearly see for yourself what your son is learning.

and, a good way to do this is to use the good old "how was your day today? what did you really love doing today?" and then record that in your journal/scrap book.

(5. cut back on all media, including the Wii.

just because it was a gift doesn't mean you have to keep it. seriously, if someone gave me a Wii, i would be getting rid of it right away. i dislike video games for no good reason. LOL

in getting rid of it, i would say to the grandparents "when DSs played this game, they displayed disturbing addictive behaviors to it. therefore, we decided to get rid of it. with the money from the sale of the Wii, we bought X which all of the kids can enjoy.")

6. to begin to ascertain DS's interests, have all of the children plan outtings. not just things that you think will be valuable, but what do the different children LIKE and what do they want to do?

then, you put this into the rhythm. if your 5 yr olds are seriously into trains, then perhaps you can find a train museum or a train outfit of some kind that will allow them to do a tour. then, you put that into your rhythm (eg, thursdays are our playground days, so instead of the playground, this month we will go to the museum). if your 8 yr old is really into bikes, perhaps a bike shop that has a fitting and repair section would be good for him (a friend of mine constantly teaches 8-10 yr old homeschooling boys how to fix their own bikes, breaks, pedals, what not--basic bike techie stuff--he repairs bikes for a living). so, you make arrangements for everyone to go to that (or most everyone if the 2 yr old can't handle it, perhaps they go to a sitter or something that day).

the idea is to just see what the interests are, and perhaps do things like look at the weekender together, or community events listings, and see what he might want to do. not to make suggestions, but to really ask.

and, what if something interests you? then yeah, you should ALL go. even if he doesn't like it--it's part of the whole rhythm. we do these things FOR our siblings and FOR mom and dad and all of that too. there are things that i go to with DH that i don't really care about, but i go because he enjoys it. and vice versa.

and, after the event, if it was fun and exciting, then a library trip to check out books on the subject and such. would be cool.

also, pictures of the events look good in the scrap book.

[meetoo]

Originally Posted by Roar

It sounds like you've reached the point where you are observing this approach is not working for him and he isn't happy. I wouldn't try talk yourself out of that. My general suggestion would be tackle some of the life stuff before the school stuff. If you aren't pleased with the therapists helping him maybe it is time to look for new ones who have advice that you respect and are comfortable implementing. I personally would look for more family and household structure before looking to more school structure.

It sounds to my like unschooling is not working for you. That is OK! You have gotten some great reply's about that so I will just throw out a few ideas to you regarding schooling.

First off if you want to drop unschooling, sit with your son and explain to him, that you no longer feel unschooling is the best option....etc...etc.. After that I would start very slow and easy with school. Try to throw out all ideas of where he "should be". If he is not the type to like a challenge make ure you start below where you think he should be.

Time4learning.com might be a good option for him. If he is an extremely resistant child you might want to pick out 3 curriculum (t4l.com and oak meadow might be two good ones) you want for him and let him choose.

I think workboxes could also work very well for you. I would start with 4 boxes, doing only 1 of the three r's a day. So For example you could give him, reading instruction, an art project, a book for you to read to him, and a lego kit to build. That is a light day, but i would resist the urge to jump in full force with a very resistant kid. Get him used to doing 4 boxes without resisting.

Pick a "school" time that works for you. We do mornings. We try to be home every morning to do our school. First school then play. Get him into these routines, using light work, then you can slowly build what he is doing.

I would throw Alfie Kohn out the window and use lot's of praise/positive reinforcement. My personal opinion is Alfie Kohn had 'easy" kids and is clueless about the more difficult variety. Some kids need firm boundaries. I have one of those and it took me a while to figure it out. Listening to advice like Alfie Kohn's makes him 10x worse! Some times a little incentive goes a long way. If you read for 30 minutes you have earned 30 minutes of wii time..... Nothing wrong with a little motivation.

Good luck! Make sure you take care of mommy too!

[DirtyHippyMama]

Oh my goodness, mamas...I step away from the computer for a few hours and now I've got so much to digest!! I have to go somewhere in a few minutes and if I start a thorough reply I'll surely be late! So I'm going to take all this with me (in my mind), mull it over a bit, and hopefully get a chance to address all the things that jumped out at me later this afternoon (I may need to get out a pen and paper so I don't miss anything!)...

This is why I love MDC...so many wise mamas here to give me advice! My local mama forum has been pretty dead and no one on there has been where I am...and I'm usually the one giving advice on there because they consider me "sage" due to having so many children! But this child... well, he just stumps me...I guess that's normal for one's oldest.

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by zjande

Anyway. In my experience, my problems were: Unschooling does not work for me.

This really sums me up in a nutshell.

For me though, unschooling is not superior, or something I seek to evolve too. Where I am with my kids is exactly where I feel we should be. I think you can homeschool and still maintain flexibility, fun, and a love for learning while having academic goals throughout the year. I read a lot of posts here that can insinuate homeschooling has to be on one side of the spectrum or the other (unschooling or school-at-home), and IME, there is wide open space with many options in-between the two.

find what makes you & your son comfortable. hugs.

[4evermom]

Saw your cross post on the unschooling subforum...

It took my ds 14 months to deschool after 10 half days of pre-k.

I don't want to think about what a year and a half of school would have taken!

My ds can read. He's 8 1/2. But he only read words and phrases a year ago. He still doesn't read books (but loves for me to read at bedtime). He reads more and more dialogue and instructions in his computer games on his own so I see he is making progress. Sometimes he follows along while I read, usually he doesn't. I think he likes to follow along sometimes to see if he is right without having to risk public failure. It builds up his confidence, especially when I read something easier to follow along like Calvin and Hobbes comics.

Science kits are a huge hit with him as well. Maybe you can set your ds up outside with the messier ones so clean up is less of an issue. I usually have ds work at the bathroom sink because clean up is pretty easy but I don't worry to much about that kind of mess anyway.

He doesn't write much but I'm not worried about that. I know enough kids that didn't really take off with reading and writing until after age 8 to be overly concerned. He prefers chalkboards and dry erase boards for writing or drawing because he can rub out any marks he isn't happy with.

Your ds might enjoy www.brainpop.com. It's a site full of educational videos. You can do a free trial and see how he likes it and decide it it is worth a subscription ($100 for a year or something).

I figure if ds is happy, everything else will fall into place.

[Needle in the Hay]

My advice to you is:

1) Read to your son, as much as you can, whatever he wants you to read. Get audiobooks for him, try the audio magazine Boomerang! (it's great), find DVDs he would enjoy (they can be educational ones only if you insist, though I see value in all the ones my DS enjoys).

2) Realize he's not been deschooling for 14 months but only since you took him out of school in the fall (and less than that if he's felt pressure since then to do anything schooly). From what you've described it doesn't sound like what you've been doing is unschooling (and no, I'm not the unschooling police just giving my impression of it).

3) Stop trying to get him to do stuff and wishing that he would hurry up and read (even if it's just because you think he'd love it). Get the kid some science kits! Support his interests in legos, pokemon, bike riding, etc. Oh and read to him!

4) Work on trusting him and his innate desire to learn. If you think you'd like to continue trying to unschool then seek out more unschooling voices. You need something to counteract all the mainstream voices in your life.

5) Work on rebuilding his trust in you. Sending him to school last fall and removing the wii for a month are the kinds of things that damage trust. I completely disagree with the pp who suggested getting rid of the wii. Why do people put so little value on things their kids enjoy?

[Needle in the Hay]

P.S. Although I used the imperative tense in my post above, it is really meant as friendly advice, to take bits from if you agree with what I'm trying to say. It seems you really do want to unschool, if I hadn't seen that coming through in your posts i would have replied differently. Anyway good luck with all this and most of all have fun!

ETA: also, the reason I mentioned that it didn't sound quite like unschooling that you've been doing is to make the point that you can't really say unschooling hasn't been working! Just wanted to be clear that I wrote that for a reason and not as a criticism.

[DirtyHippyMama]

There have been so many awesome responses to this (thanks all!), but it has gotten to the point where I can't possibly address everything (like I wanted to) without sacrificing some serious time away from my responsibilities. So instead, I figured I'd just tell everyone how reading all of this has affected my thoughts as I process them and figure out what to do. And if I say "you", I'm addressing whoever brought up the thought (sorry, being lazy about not going back to get names...but I figure you know who you are ).

First off, I never considered us "radical" unschoolers, like in regards to not setting limits about junk food, electronics, bedtimes, personal hygeine, etc. I like to think that those aspects are not too common among MDC mamas(?). I went in with the unschooling with academics and hobbies/activities in mind, not necessarily other life aspects. I have 4.33 (<--haha) children and I picture the biggest chinese fire drill in history would be my life (and it's close enough to that already!) if they all had THAT much "freedom". Not to mention that with Robby's emotional special needs and then my younger (5yo) son's mild autism, we HAVE to have some structure and consistency in place. I have mentioned before that I don't feel like there is enough of it, and that it's my fault. It's not in MY nature to be such a slave to schedules and routine...I like to flitter through my day like a butterfly, taking whatever comes and leaving what's unnecessary for another day.

This characteristic was formed, I think, by my chronic back problems (scoliosis, both s-curve and rotational = muscular atrophy and the tendency for ribs to pop out of their sockets in my spine -- ick, I know!) that make me a slave to PAIN, instead of to routines and schedules. If I overwork myself one day, I'm going to have to take it easy for several days to heal as to avoid a more serious injury that would put me down for weeks (because I've BTDT way too many times). Let's not forget that chronic pain can lead to chronic depression. And now, I have spilled all of my "excuses" (according to my mother) as to why I can't be the perfect wife, mother, teacher, housekeeper, human being, OHHH, that's a whole nuther story (<--daaamaaaged).

So. Back on topic. I have seen a lot of what we already do/have done as "unschoolers" in reading some of these responses.

- He learns through PBS shows, yes. We have very limited channels, so he really has no other choice (although he does love watching NCIS with Mama and Daddy...that took me a little while to consent to, but I think his "federal agent" creative play is adorable, esp since Daddy is a Marine-turned-cop).

- He is allowed only to go to educational websites (and we are always looking to add to that list, so thanks to you who suggested any!).

- We have explored world geography and culture because of Daddy's excursions with the USMC and the fact that I lived in Switzerland as a child. He has chosen the childrens atlas as his "bedtime story" on more than one occasion, although not recently.

- He finds discussions of math stimulating and engaging (although unfortunately most of the things we discuss are while we are driving around town, so little ever gets acted on IRL...but talking about it is better than nothing -- still gets him thinking! ). I taught him multiplication in about 2 minutes when he was 7, which, AFAIK, is well before the state-mandated grade level for his age at the time (1st grade). We did this using piles of river rocks (I got the idea from The Clan of the Cave Bear movie that I loooved as a teen) and I showed him that 3x4 is the same thing as 3 groups of 4 rocks...and he immediately got it. That made me feel like a successful unschool "facilitator", because for him, it was nothing but a fun trick.

***

omg I'm going to have to finish this tomorrow...it's been up on my screen here all day long and I don't want to lose all this so I'm gonna go ahead and post it...more later.

[Needle in the Hay]

OP, regarding your chronic pain I just want to say, Wow that's hard. Obviously you can only do what you can do. I understand a little more about your aversion to messes now since cleaning them up could put you out of commission for a couple of days.

As for not being radical unschoolers, I didn't think you were or that you were striving to be, but I was suggesting opening your mind a little bit about dvds and wii games because they can be great resources, especially for a child who is more of a visual learner. I can't believe the things my DS retains from things he's watched or computer games he plays. These things also fill a need for some of the stimulation he craves. He is not a passive watcher or player, his mind is working all the time. He learns a lot from all the books I read to him as well; in fact, visual learners often get more out of a book by listening to it rather than reading it.

Finding value in something your child enjoys even if you were previously disdainful of it is not about radical unschooling, it's about connecting with your kid. I don't see how unschooling can work very well if the child isn't given more freedom to pursue learning in his way. That's why I mentioned those things, but I am not suggesting you immediately lift all limits you have in place.

Just one more things since our sons are very close in age (mine is 8 & 3/4). My son isn't reading books or writing stories either (and like you, I was doing both at his age). He's doing other cool things that I didn't have much time (or inclination) for at his age. When I look at all he does and who he is, I see so much going on. I don't see any reason to focus on what he isn't doing right now.

[annakiss]

It sounds like you live under the weight of a lot of "shoulds" as well. It sounds like you don't feel quite good enough despite the limits your circumstances impose. It also seems as though you're really tied to this idea of unschooling "working" meaning that a child will choose to learn the things our larger culture values as academic necessities.

I find that it takes a lot of relaxing our grip to see progress in the things the larger culture values. It can also take a lot of looking. It may also take trust. I think the pp's comment on helping your son to regain trust in you is key: you can't force him to be how you were at his age. It's not really worth it, either, unless you're up for the fight.

If you want unschooling to be a relaxed journey through your days, where wonderful, spontaneous learning occurs, you're going to have to relax about it and wait to see it. It will not look like a blog. It will not look like photographs and stories about unschooling families. Those are all but tiny snippets into people's lives. They are not the whole picture.

I'm all drugged up at the moment, awaiting an emergency root canal and my children are watching some show on the internet. It's almost 11. We have no plans for the day. They'll probably play outside with the neighbor girls after awhile. There won't be anything amazing like writing novels or playing chess happening. They probably won't help with dinner. We may argue a bit about something stupid like not eating at the computer. Aleks will build Lego for a short while, harrass his dad endlessly about all the pets in World of Warcraft, draw a bunch of pictures, act like a total goofball with the other kids... I may get the energy to plant the seedlings in our garden later. Bastian will help me, but Aleks will just talk to me a bunch, wandering around the garden, complaining about spending time with his friends or talking about the Tube Fairy leaving a dollar under his pillow for his ear tube that came out yesterday. I have to finish their summer camp applications which requires that they both submit letters. Bastian still needs to finish his drawing for that.

It looks like almost nothing at all on the surface. It looks like people just living their life. It does not mean prodigies. It does not mean that we talk about math concepts or spend all day looking up every bug we find. That does happen sometimes, yes, but it's not the whole picture. Our days look far more like schooling folks' summer breaks where there's not a heap of expectation.

It may not be something you're interested in doing. That's okay. It does sound like your son could benefit from some time to just be. It may take him awhile to figure out what to do with boredom. Boredom is an awesome driving force. It is so necessary for living creatively. You need to get bored, to think with no goal in mind in order to make awesome things happen. That's when I get motivated to make art, sew things, write, go on hikes, spring clean, etc, personally. Anne Lammot said it takes a whole lotta loafing to write a novel. Or to raise a child. Or to do anything fundamentally creative and awesome.

[MyFeminineMind]

Unschooling considerations

A lot of people were saying that your son needs more structure, but I'm not so sure. I'm pretty new to unschooling and what has attracted me the most to the philosophy is the PRESENCE that it requires of us. I know that in my relationship with my own mother, I always feel quizzed. I never really feel like my mother converses with me just to genuinely enjoy my company or to try to understand me. Rather, every conversation is a test to find out if I'm her definition of successful. (Which includes but is not limited to being sufficiently devout, disciplined, educated, balanced, productive, and so on). As a result, each conversation feels kind of violating. Why can't I make a mistake and learn my own lessons from it, without a 15 minute lecture about what I need to do differently from now on? Why can't I just enjoy fiction without her comment about how SHE doesn't like fiction and prefers history, economics, and philosophy? I'm 31 years old for crying out loud! Anyway, I recognize this tendency in myself too. To turn every conversation with my daughter into some kind of learning opportunity. And I don't want to do that. I feel the most important gift we can give our children is the knowledge that they are loved, accepted, and enjoyed for who they are, as they are. And that their value as human persons doesn't lie in any worldly notions of success. They are valuable because they ARE. They can never earn it or lose it, by any ability or lack thereof. THIS is what we must show our children (and all our loved ones, really)

So I don't know if you do this too. (How could I know your mind?) Of course only you can know this about yourself, but maybe question if you might be coming to your son with an agenda, rather than just enjoying his company. If so, it might have something to do with his resistance. It seems to me that for unschooling to work, the child must have the knowledge of being unconditionally loved and accepted first. Then they will have the confidence to tackle the world. I really hope I can give this to my children. I know I'm not there yet, but it's this goal that I strive for, rather than any specific "educational" milestones.

Also, I would question if limiting things sends the message that you trust him, and that his desires are valid. Here's an article you might be interested in on the subject. http://sandradodd.com/economics

[DirtyHippyMama]

Originally Posted by Needle in the Hay

OP, regarding your chronic pain I just want to say, Wow that's hard. Obviously you can only do what you can do. I understand a little more about your aversion to messes now since cleaning them up could put you out of commission for a couple of days.

As for not being radical unschoolers, I didn't think you were or that you were striving to be, but I was suggesting opening your mind a little bit about dvds and wii games because they can be great resources, especially for a child who is more of a visual learner. I can't believe the things my DS retains from things he's watched or computer games he plays. These things also fill a need for some of the stimulation he craves. He is not a passive watcher or player, his mind is working all the time. He learns a lot from all the books I read to him as well; in fact, visual learners often get more out of a book by listening to it rather than reading it.

Finding value in something your child enjoys even if you were previously disdainful of it is not about radical unschooling, it's about connecting with your kid. I don't see how unschooling can work very well if the child isn't given more freedom to pursue learning in his way. That's why I mentioned those things, but I am not suggesting you immediately lift all limits you have in place.

Just one more things since our sons are very close in age (mine is 8 & 3/4). My son isn't reading books or writing stories either (and like you, I was doing both at his age). He's doing other cool things that I didn't have much time (or inclination) for at his age. When I look at all he does and who he is, I see so much going on. I don't see any reason to focus on what he isn't doing right now.

Yes, I avert mess because it's literally painful to clean it up. That's why my house is chronically cluttered, disorganized, and sometimes downright dirty. My mother doesn't like coming over. That hurts. She considers my back pain to be a cop-out. She had a freakin' maid service when I was growing up. And only 2 children. And endless strict rules about keeping the house clean. She spent more time ordering us around than enjoying our company. I don't want to do that to my children, and I've told her that. So, here I am, an OCD-ish mama stuck in a body that is incapable of maintaining the atmosphere I would like to live in. And I feel terrible about it. Mothers' words mean everything to a child, even an adult one. I recently had to make the difficult decision to step away from my mother (i.e. we're not speaking) in order to protect myself from the damage that her harsh judgments cause.

This all connects to my job as "teacher" because of the aversion to mess and the state of physical chaos that the house is always in. I resist adding to it, yes, and Robby suffers because of it. I need help with the house, but I am ashamed to bring in any professionals (strangers, and not that I can afford it anyway) or most friends acquaintances to help. My husband isn't much help because he's gone a lot, exhausted when he's home (or spending time with the children...or doing outside/manly chores), and he has ADHD (so he doesn't even really see the mess!). It's so frustrating!!

I am trying to relax about the video games. I try to limit it to about an hour a day on the Wii, and he seems to be okay with that. I am fearful of video game addiction because my husband has fallen into it multiple times, and it has caused serious problems in our marriage -- he'd be lost in a game instead of doing his chores, spending time with the children (or me), or even SUPERVISING the children if I wasn't home. I'd come home to evidence of unsupervised mischief that he hadn't even noticed (because surely he would have cleaned it up so as to avoid getting caught ignoring them). I'm all for benign neglect; I think it's healthy and normal to be pretty "hands-off" with children, and I really have no other choice as a mother of 4. But this wasn't benign.

As for the learning styles, I do find it hard to understand learning styles other than my own. I am hands-on, visual. I hate being read to -- I need to see the words. I have a photographic memory, so it's almost like I CAN'T process and retain something unless I SEE it (whether by reading words, watching something be done, seeing pictures or video, etc). I do see Robby as being hands-on (definitely), and visual too, but I know that he has more auditory learning capabilities than I do, and it drives me nuts because I don't get it.

[DirtyHippyMama]

Originally Posted by annakiss

It sounds like you live under the weight of a lot of "shoulds" as well. It sounds like you don't feel quite good enough despite the limits your circumstances impose. It also seems as though you're really tied to this idea of unschooling "working" meaning that a child will choose to learn the things our larger culture values as academic necessities.

I find that it takes a lot of relaxing our grip to see progress in the things the larger culture values. It can also take a lot of looking. It may also take trust. I think the pp's comment on helping your son to regain trust in you is key: you can't force him to be how you were at his age. It's not really worth it, either, unless you're up for the fight.

If you want unschooling to be a relaxed journey through your days, where wonderful, spontaneous learning occurs, you're going to have to relax about it and wait to see it. It will not look like a blog. It will not look like photographs and stories about unschooling families. Those are all but tiny snippets into people's lives. They are not the whole picture.

I'm all drugged up at the moment, awaiting an emergency root canal and my children are watching some show on the internet. It's almost 11. We have no plans for the day. They'll probably play outside with the neighbor girls after awhile. There won't be anything amazing like writing novels or playing chess happening. They probably won't help with dinner. We may argue a bit about something stupid like not eating at the computer. Aleks will build Lego for a short while, harrass his dad endlessly about all the pets in World of Warcraft, draw a bunch of pictures, act like a total goofball with the other kids... I may get the energy to plant the seedlings in our garden later. Bastian will help me, but Aleks will just talk to me a bunch, wandering around the garden, complaining about spending time with his friends or talking about the Tube Fairy leaving a dollar under his pillow for his ear tube that came out yesterday. I have to finish their summer camp applications which requires that they both submit letters. Bastian still needs to finish his drawing for that.

It looks like almost nothing at all on the surface. It looks like people just living their life. It does not mean prodigies. It does not mean that we talk about math concepts or spend all day looking up every bug we find. That does happen sometimes, yes, but it's not the whole picture. Our days look far more like schooling folks' summer breaks where there's not a heap of expectation.

It may not be something you're interested in doing. That's okay. It does sound like your son could benefit from some time to just be. It may take him awhile to figure out what to do with boredom. Boredom is an awesome driving force. It is so necessary for living creatively. You need to get bored, to think with no goal in mind in order to make awesome things happen. That's when I get motivated to make art, sew things, write, go on hikes, spring clean, etc, personally. Anne Lammot said it takes a whole lotta loafing to write a novel. Or to raise a child. Or to do anything fundamentally creative and awesome.

I loved reading about your day (sorry about the tooth pain, though -- BTDT ). It really does sound a lot like our days, and I know that from an unschooling POV, that's a good thing. But it's that exact thing that others disapprove of, and make me feel guilty about him being "behind" and feel discouraged about being a successful homeschooling mama. It makes me feel lazy, and I already deal with enough guilt about that because of my back problems. Their misunderstanding and disapproval and negative judgments really make it hard for me to keep my goal in mind, and that is to allow for a love of learning and exploration, without the pressures of school; tests, being forced to sit still and be quiet, forced to socialize with children whose influences may be detrimental, bullies, not nearly enough supervision and direct guidance, etc. (I know I don't really need to explain all that to HS mamas!). I think a very relaxed approach to homeschooling works for us (or maybe best for me, since I'm the "lazy" one, heheh).

I have hoped for a long time that Robby's boredom would resolve itself. I have followed advice such as "you can do/help me with [insert household chore here], or you can find something else to do", not really expecting him to choose the chore. And he doesn't. He refuses the chore, and then immediately complains of boredom again. every single morning he asks me "are we going anywhere today?" If my answer is "No" or "I'm not sure yet", he immediately starts whining and complaining. It's exhausting. I try to make sure we do something every day, but sometimes *I* just need a chill-at-home day! Then I have to either be prepared to entertain him (which defeats the purpose of a "rest" day), or listen to him whine all day and refuse everything I suggest to him.

I think one of my problems is that I want/expect him to be able to entertain himself, like I did as a child. I know he's not me, and I need to stop expecting him to behave like an 8yo reading/writing GIRL. He asks to do things that require my participation, and my chronic answer is "not now, maybe later". Well, later never comes. He wants to play a board game. Well, most of our board games are missing vital pieces because some child has taken it out without permission and lost pieces. They even lost all the pieces to one of those wooden 10-games-in-1 things, and then someone broke the wooden box part! My daughter got a Lite-Brite for xmas that has never been used because all of the pegs got spilled on day 1 and were scattered/kicked under furniture and then vacuumed up (or are still there), etc. ARGH! This has happened to brand new games that have never even been played. It's depressing. I can't even set up Candyland for the children to play with each other because 3/4 of the cards are missing. It's like I have to lock up the games! I've already had to lock up the puzzles because they will get them out and un-do ALL of them, then putting one of them back together half-way and leaving the rest of the pieces mixed up all over the floor. And good luck having them clean THAT up -- it's completely overwhelming to them, and I agree! UUUGH. Can you see why I am not enthusiastic about providing game time?

Even so, I have ONCE AGAIN resolved to re-organize the game closet, try to gather missing pieces or at least figure out what we can still play, and make it a point to facilitate good old fashioned game time for him/them/us. I think I just need to lay down the law about the game closet, and be FOR REAL about it this time. Maybe I'll make a pile of all the games that are "ruined" now to show them what they have done. Harsh?

[annakiss]

I think that it takes some time to get into a routine with it that your son will be used to. I also know that for me, I go through phases where I spend a lot of time worrying about different things - be that the expectations of the big outside world for children academically or be that the beautiful, idealized learning I see happening on unschooling and pseudo-unschooling blogs. Then miraculously, it's nice outside and the kids spend more and more time playing outdoors and less time playing video games. They become helpful and interested in a million different things. They get creative or I do and we do lots of projects that feel like something. Or I get a toothache and drugged up and just don't care anymore.

I would ask him what he wants to do. Express your concerns and your limits, then ask what he thinks would be a solution.

Since you're pregnant, I think it's probably going to be hard to be super proactive in general about all this. Maybe it's just me, but pregnancy makes it insanely difficult for me to parent my other children well, as does having a small baby. In another year-and-a-half, you'll be golden (maybe). For now, though, it's going to be a struggle to feel that anyone gets enough of what they need.

In the end, I think it's the patterns that matter most. We follow a seasonal rhythm even if we don't have a lot of structure or much in the way of "product" to show for any of it. If I look at the whole year, we do lots of awesome stuff collectively. If I look at just the day, we can look either really productive or really lazy, depending on time of year, circumstance, etc. It changes. I think that helps the kids learn how to cope though. I think it's a healthier, slower way of being. It can be hard, however, to find folks to reinforce that as positive though. That sounds like maybe your biggest challenge.

[Dar]

I was wondering if you might like this blog, OP.

I knew the author when our kids were younger - she ran a writing group that my daughter attended, even - and she also has this essay published last year in Mothering. I'm not sure where or not she calls herself an unschooler, but what she has done seems to work well for her family. I remember that when our kids were young, she would block off a certain period of time every morning during which, if I recall correctly, she would be totally available to help her kids with any academic-type projects and they needed to work on something academic. It was a very loose structure that worked for them...

[Adasmommy]

Michelle, I hope to be where you're at someday...several homeschooled children and pregnant, but I know that my experience last year when I was a pregnant mother of ONE was exhausting, hot, sore, impatient, etc. So I think that setting things up to be as easy as possible for you is going to mean more rewarding mom time for your kids: win-win!

Can you get your son (and other kids) to help out of excitement? As in, "We're going too get a science kit! We just need to clear off this table to make room for it!"

And I think it's fair to say, "I need it all put away neatly if we're going to use it again." And the same with games.

Or even look online for science experiments using household materials and send him outside to do them where he can be messy as he wants.

And you can sit with him and have a meeting (as a pp said). Tell him that you want to have these fun things but you don't have any way to supervise/clean up everything and ask him what he thinks about it: what fun things he wants to do/have and how it could work for the whole family. Be open to some unusual solutions that might really work instead of trying to steer the conversation to your secret solution.

As for deschooling....it doesn't sound like he has. It's not a period of time, it's a specific result--and he isn't there yet. Whether you unschool or not, I don't think making him do academics against his will can do anything but harm the situation. I would drop any academic suggestion until he is enjoying learning on his own again.

But as you said it's not just an academic problem, maybe the good mamas in the gentle discipline forum would have some good ideas about how to improve your relationship and trust in each other, so that you can help him to be joyful. I think then your academic problems will be solved. I'd really concentrate on connecting and enjoying each other every chance you get!

Love, peace, and luck!

[LauraN]

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[DirtyHippyMama]

i STILL haven't had time to reply like i have wanted to, but know that i am constantly thinking about all of your replies and slowly coming to a decision about how to proceed!

keep 'em coming!