Doctors and Vaccines

[rabrog]

I've heard of a DVD that has doctors explaining the reasons NOT to vaccinate. Has anyone else heard of this or have more info?

Jenn

[fruitfulmomma]

Dr Tenpenny has some dvds...

http://www.drtenpennystore.com/vaccine-products.html

[yara1]

(I liked doctor Lawrence Palevsky also, don't know if he has any DVDs or just on youtube.
You can Google him, if interested...)

[MyBoysBlue]

Dr Gordon's video was enough for me to convince DH that I might be on to something with this whole no vax thing.

[heathergirl67]

Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma

Dr Tenpenny has some dvds...

http://www.drtenpennystore.com/vaccine-products.html

I'd trust her a lot more if she weren't making money off of all of her anti-vax merch. Same as I'd trust a doctor who had no financial links to vaccines more than one who, say, made money off of them.

Same goes for Dr. Gordon, actually. But it looks like Dr. Palevsky has nothing (readily apparent) to gain financially, so I'd definitely look at him more cloesly!

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by heathergirl67

I'd trust her a lot more if she weren't making money off of all of her anti-vax merch. Same as I'd trust a doctor who had no financial links to vaccines more than one who, say, made money off of them.

Same goes for Dr. Gordon, actually. But it looks like Dr. Palevsky has nothing (readily apparent) to gain financially, so I'd definitely look at him more cloesly!

So you think that doctors that write books on the subject should give their books away for free?? I can assure you if Dr. Palevsky made a DVD or published a book on the subject, he would sell it and not give it away. I hightly doubt Dr. Tenpenny is making a financial windfall on her merchandise. Comparing the little money she may actually see from her efforts to the millions that a certain doctor made from his patent of rotateq is like comparing apples and shoes. JMHO

[Romana]

Just because they're profiting on different sides of the equation doesn't exempt one or the other from being suspect. I agree with the pp . . . I find it incredibly disheartening how many "holistic"/"natural"/"anti-vax" etc. professionals are hawking products like mad. Just because they aren't making the magnitude of money Dr. Offit is doesn't make them unbiased or reliable. I mean, she's selling T-shirts. T-shirts! That's just profiteering/commericalism, which is ok and legal, but suspect.

[Emmeline II]

I would not dismiss a person just because they do not give everything away for free. On the topic of books, it takes a lot of time to research and write a book and it is expensive to self-publish.

I believe that there was some question as to whether Hiliary Butler was going to write a second book because the first drained the foundation that funded it, there were not quite enough donations from people who were given free books (shipping to the US was about $26 alone), and the labor involved in writing the book took a lot out of her and her family.

[heathergirl67]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

I would not dismiss a person just because they do not give everything away for free. On the topic of books, it takes a lot of time to research and write a book and it is expensive to self-publish.

I believe that there was some question as to whether Hiliary Butler was going to write a second book because the first drained the foundation that funded it, there were not quite enough donations from people who were given free books (shipping to the US was about $26 alone), and the labor involved in writing the book took a lot out of her and her family.

So you don't dismiss the opinions of doctors who benefit financially from the vaccines they created? They spent a lot of time and hard work on those, too. Do you expect them to give it away? Either way they're making money. Just because one of them says stuff that you agree with doesn't mean that their financial gain wouldn't be a motivating factor like it would for other doctors. Making money is making money.

As for Hilary Butler, I like it that she doesn't even charge for her books, just accepts donations. To me, that makes her motives less shady and gives me the feeling that she just really wants the message out there, for the benefit of anyone who will read it.

[heathergirl67]

Originally Posted by Marnica

So you think that doctors that write books on the subject should give their books away for free?? I can assure you if Dr. Palevsky made a DVD or published a book on the subject, he would sell it and not give it away. I hightly doubt Dr. Tenpenny is making a financial windfall on her merchandise. Comparing the little money she may actually see from her efforts to the millions that a certain doctor made from his patent of rotateq is like comparing apples and shoes. JMHO

How do you know how much or little these doctors are making from their merchandise? Do you have the published reports, or is it just your conjecture?

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Romana

Just because they're profiting on different sides of the equation doesn't exempt one or the other from being suspect. I agree with the pp . . . I find it incredibly disheartening how many "holistic"/"natural"/"anti-vax" etc. professionals are hawking products like mad. Just because they aren't making the magnitude of money Dr. Offit is doesn't make them unbiased or reliable. I mean, she's selling T-shirts. T-shirts! That's just profiteering/commericalism, which is ok and legal, but suspect.

I think t-shirts are a wonderful way to get a message across actually. It gets people questioning and perhaps thinking about something they may not have before.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by heathergirl67

How do you know how much or little these doctors are making from their merchandise? Do you have the published reports, or is it just your conjecture?

I commented specifically on Dr. Tenpenny, not anyone else. I have heard her lecture and she has addressed this question in person. I choose to believe her.

[heathergirl67]

Originally Posted by Marnica

I commented specifically on Dr. Tenpenny, not anyone else. I have heard her lecture and she has addressed this question in person. I choose to believe her and not assume she is a liar.

Of the half dozen or so doctors I've asked, the all say that they make no money from administering vaxes. In fact, about 50% say that they lose money because of the costs involved in storing and refrigerating. Should I believe them and not assume that they are liars?

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by heathergirl67

Of the half dozen or so doctors I've asked, the all say that they make no money from administering vaxes. In fact, about 50% say that they lose money because of the costs involved in storing and refrigerating. Should I believe them and not assume that they are liars?

Seems you wish to debate and I am sick and really do not have the energy to debate this, I will leave you with this, Believe whatever you want to - most people do. As for privately practicing MD's, I have never said they profit from administering vaccines. That wasn't even part of this exchange was it? I was under the impression the exchange was about anti-vaccine doctor's profiting from anti-vax merchandise.

[serenbat]

Should I believe them and not assume that they are liars?

- I would say NO.

you can also add- in some states (mine!) insurance companies are NOT required to pay for vaxes

My Ped has in every room, if your insurance doesn't pay you will pay or go to the Health Dept.

They DO loose when a person doesn't pay what their insurance won't cover.

[Grace and Granola]

Originally Posted by Romana

Just because they're profiting on different sides of the equation doesn't exempt one or the other from being suspect. I agree with the pp . . . I find it incredibly disheartening how many "holistic"/"natural"/"anti-vax" etc. professionals are hawking products like mad. Just because they aren't making the magnitude of money Dr. Offit is doesn't make them unbiased or reliable. I mean, she's selling T-shirts. T-shirts! That's just profiteering/commericalism, which is ok and legal, but suspect.

That's like saying lactivists are as suspect as the formula companies because they sell t-shirts. Seriously?!

If you are so passionate about a subject that you are willing to make it your life's work, then you should not be judged for trying to earn a living to support your efforts. Even volunteer organizations have to do something to raise the money to pay for the "overhead" of their cause.

[ammiga]

Originally Posted by heathergirl67

Of the half dozen or so doctors I've asked, the all say that they make no money from administering vaxes. In fact, about 50% say that they lose money because of the costs involved in storing and refrigerating. Should I believe them and not assume that they are liars?

Maybe they don't make money directly on the cost of the vaccines. But, how do they fair overall from the WBV? They are certainly not losing money with the total cost of that visit. And it is the vax schedule that lands them those profitable visits.

I think instead of throwing around sentiments like whether or not to believe people based on any profit they stand to make, it stands to reason that we should all be looking at what the profit is, where it comes from, and where the motive behind what they are selling is.

I do not think that most pediatricians are liars. I think they truly believe what they are telling you about vaccines, and may not make much money (or any at all) directly on the cost of the vaccine. My trouble with trusting doctors as a reputable source is that I do not trust their sources. I find most pediatricians to be grossly uneducated about vaccines (and most drugs in general) and they simply recite a few studies that were funded by drug companies or put out by the media. I don't think that makes them liars, I think that makes them uneducated. The major problem with this is that they tout themselves as heavily researched and all-knowing, when in my opinion, they are not. Deciding to trust them as educated sources of knowledge and trusting how much money they make on vaccines are two totally different areas of trust.

In the example with Dr. Tenpenny, she told the poster what she makes on this merchandise. Choosing to not believe her would be calling her a liar on this subject. I don't think she is a liar, just like I don't think most pediatricians are. My analysis of whether or not to trust her as a source of knowledge has nothing to do with the fact that she helps to spread a message using t-shirts, dvds, and books. I don't expect any person (regardless of their profession or stance) to take an idyllic stance on any issue, live on the streets, and not make any money. How would they ever get their message heard?

[heathergirl67]

Originally Posted by ammiga

In the example with Dr. Tenpenny, she told the poster what she makes on this merchandise. Choosing to not believe her would be calling her a liar on this subject. I don't think she is a liar, just like I don't think most pediatricians are. My analysis of whether or not to trust her as a source of knowledge has nothing to do with the fact that she helps to spread a message using t-shirts, dvds, and books. I don't expect any person (regardless of their profession or stance) to take an idyllic stance on any issue, live on the streets, and not make any money. How would they ever get their message heard?

ITA. Personally, I don't believe that someone is automatically untrustworthy just because they make money off of their subject. It does make them less trustworthy, IMO, than someone who doesn't have a vested interest. But I wouldn't throw all of their opinions and expertise out the window because of it. One of my pet peeves is double standards. It rankles me when someone discounts mainstream docs opinions because "they're in the pocket of big pharma", indicating they make money off of it. But those same people look at homeopaths, naturopaths, or anti-vax docs like they're some sort of charity. To me, it seems much more reasonable to acknowledge that most docs on both sides have something to gain from it. But like you, I believe that most of them are using it as a means to support themselves so that they can tell others about what they believe because they want to help people.

BTW, I'm equally annoyed at pro-vaxxers who think that doctors are all Mother Theresa's and any non-vax-friendly practitioner is "just trying to make money off of selling voodoo crap." I wish people (on both sides) had a little more balanced view overall.

[heathergirl67]

Marnica- I'm sorry that you're not feeling well. Especially since you're already worried about your son's health, getting sick is really the last thing that you need! When it rains it pours. I hope you feel better soon.

[ammiga]

Originally Posted by heathergirl67

ITA. One of my pet peeves is double standards. It rankles me when someone discounts mainstream docs opinions because "they're in the pocket of big pharma", indicating they make money off of it. But those same people look at homeopaths, naturopaths, or anti-vax docs like they're some sort of charity. To me, it seems much more reasonable to acknowledge that most docs on both sides have something to gain from it. But like you, I believe that most of them are using it as a means to support themselves so that they can tell others about what they believe because they want to help people.

Well... if that doctor is claiming the safety of vaccines while making millions off of patents...

I think you need to look at the source of that statement. I think a lot of doctors are extremely heavily influenced by "big pharma". Look at who publishes they books they read in school, the studies they read in journals, etc. Look at the perks they receive for vaxing their clients. All of this does cause their opinions to be formed and swayed.

I don't think the same can be said for natural doctors. There simply aren't massive industries out there pushing their agendas on these doctors through any means available. Doesn't make all of them more reliable sources, but it does eliminate one major source of bias to need to sift through.