cow milk for toddlers--Do they really need it? - Page 2

[patrickq]

Originally Posted by cristeen

There's a reason that the women on this board support and suggest eating only grass-fed/pastured animals/animal products. Animals that are not fed an unnatural diet of soy/corn and pumped full of antibiotics and growth hormone.

And as for the fruit... that is a gross generalization. Other than possibly the generalization that most Americans eat too much processed food, generalizations don't really work. If I were to base my diet on fruit, I would be constantly eating, having sever mood swings from mania to lethargy and I would be gaining weight left and right. Not every diet works for every person. If a fruit based diet works for you, great. That doesn't mean that it'd work for everyone.

Cristeen, I was going to qualify my post, as I had my previous one on here, by stating 'these are just my thoughts and feelings, not based on empirical evidence anywhere', I'll see if I can add a signature to that effect, as I don't want you to think I think I know it all, not my intention

I find it bizarre that parents give their children milk designed for another creature, especially that meant for a calf that grows rapidly, totally at odds with human development, but I guess this is done largely because it is the generally accepted thing to do, again because our whole concept of nutrition and what is actually healthy has been distorted by vested interests. Sure, giving milk from grassfed/... cows is better than giving milk from hormone fed ones, but it is still a very unhealthy, unsuitable and detrimental thing to do.

It is not a generalisation to say that fruit is the most excellent source of nutrition suited to the human race, it is a physiological fact. Sure, you need to eat far more quantity on a fruit based diet than you do on any kind of SAD, vegetarian or vegan style diets, but you won't get fat, you'll lose it and more to the point it will stay off.

It is extraordinarily difficult to overeat on fruit, I guess if one sat all day munching fruit, taking zero exercise and not paying any attention to your body's signals, then it could happen - but eating fruit tends to bring a greater clarity of mind and desire to be healthy, so the desire to move would probably motivate one.

Diet based mania, lethargy, mood swings etc are symptoms of an unbalanced diet, not of eating fruit (unless of course it is poor quality, sprayed/toxic). If you ate large quantities of fruit, but also high fat or other unhealthy food, those would be the source of the problems - eat a truly healthy diet, predominantly fruit based, as well as being balanced in all areas of your life and you will experience amazing vibrancy, if you don't you would be the exception to the 'generalisation'.

I guess we have quite different views on what is healthy, my posts are of more value and support to those drawn to moving away from the more mainstream ideas, because so few do and it makes one feel isolated. Times change and what is accepted progresses, when I started on a vegetarian diet 40 years ago, people thought it was weird and it was very difficult to eat that way, nowadays even a vegan diet is fairly acceptable. I realised that eating a vegetarian and even vegan diet is not necessarily healthier than eating a traditional SAD one.

The question is whether one wishes to improve or to achieve excellence, there is a massive difference. I'm saying this to myself, because too often the choice is the former! Going beyond what is comfortable and familiar requires the will to do so, but usually makes one glad to have done so.

[mambera]

Fruit has some nice micronutrients but not enough macronutrients (protein, fats and calories) to be the sole constituent of a healthy diet. A diet composed only of fruit sounds like a fast road to kwashiorkor, especially for a young child.

[Astrea]

I actually lean towards patrickq's views, too--a fruit-based diet with lots of leafy greens and a bit of protein (from nuts, maybe a small amount of organic meat) is what gorillas and other primates thrive on, and since we're so very similar to them, it makes sense that we'd thrive on a similar diet. Just my thoughts. Greens actually have tons of protein.

[mambera]

Originally Posted by BLB

I actually lean towards patrickq's views, too--a fruit-based diet with lots of leafy greens and a bit of protein (from nuts, maybe a small amount of organic meat) is what gorillas and other primates thrive on, and since we're so very similar to them, it makes sense that we'd thrive on a similar diet.

But the various primates have different species-specific diets. For example, chimpanzees hunt and eat meat, and we are biologically significantly more similar to them than we are to gorillas.

*Human* primates in most societies (traditional and otherwise) eat omnivorous diets.

That's not to say that we need *lots* of meat, and obviously it's possible to be a reasonably healthy person without eating any at all (although the research I've seen indicates that people who eat small amounts of meat tend to be somewhat healthier than strict vegetarians).

The diet you describe (fruits, greens, nuts, and meat) sounds pretty healthy to me actually. That's pretty different from saying we should just eat fruit.

[nukuspot]

Not getting into the fruit/ less fruit discussion on here I just wanted to post that she is nursing more this week. I haven't stopped nursing and have been kind of force nursing her through this patch. She just started walking so I think maybe it was a developmental pause as someone mentioned? She's still big into fruit, so I've started making her smoothies with almond butter, carrot, parsley, banana, strawberry, and whole unhomogenized (but pasteurized) goat kefir. It was the best dairy option I could find in my area. She'll drink them for the time being so I feel like it's somewhat of a "liquid meal". Sometimes I add hemp seeds or flax oil.

And for those of you asking about pumping--I don't know why but I can barely get any milk out with pumping. I have a good quality pump, I've just always had a hard time with my let down to the pump. I get like 1oz in 30 minutes and it's just not worth it for the stress....I'd rather feed her "from the source."

Anyway, thanks for your help, and I think I feel really happy with my decision to not give her milk at this point. I am happy that I found the goat kefir, and maybe when she is older I will try some raw milk...What ages do people normally give their LO raw milk? Just curious. I think I am overcautious in this aspect but would like a general idea.

[Brigio]

Originally Posted by patrickq

Cristeen, I was going to qualify my post, as I had my previous one on here, by stating 'these are just my thoughts and feelings, not based on empirical evidence anywhere', I'll see if I can add a signature to that effect, as I don't want you to think I think I know it all, not my intention

I find it bizarre that parents give their children milk designed for another creature, especially that meant for a calf that grows rapidly, totally at odds with human development, but I guess this is done largely because it is the generally accepted thing to do, again because our whole concept of nutrition and what is actually healthy has been distorted by vested interests. Sure, giving milk from grassfed/... cows is better than giving milk from hormone fed ones, but it is still a very unhealthy, unsuitable and detrimental thing to do.

It is not a generalisation to say that fruit is the most excellent source of nutrition suited to the human race, it is a physiological fact. Sure, you need to eat far more quantity on a fruit based diet than you do on any kind of SAD, vegetarian or vegan style diets, but you won't get fat, you'll lose it and more to the point it will stay off.

It is extraordinarily difficult to overeat on fruit, I guess if one sat all day munching fruit, taking zero exercise and not paying any attention to your body's signals, then it could happen - but eating fruit tends to bring a greater clarity of mind and desire to be healthy, so the desire to move would probably motivate one.

Diet based mania, lethargy, mood swings etc are symptoms of an unbalanced diet, not of eating fruit (unless of course it is poor quality, sprayed/toxic). If you ate large quantities of fruit, but also high fat or other unhealthy food, those would be the source of the problems - eat a truly healthy diet, predominantly fruit based, as well as being balanced in all areas of your life and you will experience amazing vibrancy, if you don't you would be the exception to the 'generalisation'.

I guess we have quite different views on what is healthy, my posts are of more value and support to those drawn to moving away from the more mainstream ideas, because so few do and it makes one feel isolated. Times change and what is accepted progresses, when I started on a vegetarian diet 40 years ago, people thought it was weird and it was very difficult to eat that way, nowadays even a vegan diet is fairly acceptable. I realised that eating a vegetarian and even vegan diet is not necessarily healthier than eating a traditional SAD one.

The question is whether one wishes to improve or to achieve excellence, there is a massive difference. I'm saying this to myself, because too often the choice is the former! Going beyond what is comfortable and familiar requires the will to do so, but usually makes one glad to have done so.

Humans seem to thrive on many different types of diets. If I ate fruit all day I would have some serious Candida overgrowth- I personally would not give my daughter a diet based on fruit. For the record she rarely gets sick too but she has dairy and meat- pastured and organic.

[Brigio]

Removed quote as per request. Also edited "millions" haha!

I agree cows milk is in fact for baby cows. Obviously. I have been back and forth on dairy and have decided that for our family it is a good fit. Humans have been consuming milk (raw) for thousands of years and it has some wonderful benefits if a) said person digests it well B) it is from healthy grass fed cows and ideally raw. I do not think low fat pasteurized conventional milk is healthy which is what most people drink. I also would never take nutritional advice from a mainstream doctor. In the case of this mama, if my DC wasn't really nursing at 13 months old I probably would give them raw milk or make a homemade raw milk formula. At 13 months old FRUIT is just not going to cut it. Fat (saturated) and cholesterol are very important for brain development.

[mambera]

Originally Posted by Brigio

Humans have been consuming milk (raw) for millions of years

The pedant in me has to say that agriculture is only 10,000 years old. Otherwise, I agree with this post.

[mamadelbosque]

Agriculture may only be 10,000 yrs old, but there is some evidance that we have been caring for animals for longer than that, and thus likely consuming their milk, eggs, meat, etc as well

[mambera]

Originally Posted by mamadelbosque

Agriculture may only be 10,000 yrs old, but there is some evidance that we have been caring for animals for longer than that, and thus likely consuming their milk, eggs, meat, etc as well

OK but 1 million years ago is the Paleolithic era. Old stone age. We're talking Homo erectus and flint chips, not dairy herds. Seriously, we have not been herding cattle for "millions of years." Anyway I see the PP has edited her post to read "thousands of years" which is much more accurate. The pedant in me thanks you, Brigio.

[Ironica]

Kids need milk or a nutritional substitute through the second year of life. But "milk" means mommy milk, and "substitute" would include cow's milk.

There's *tons* of evidence that humans don't need animal dairy. The primary evidence is the 70% of the global population that never eats the stuff, and the millions more that *only* eat it cultured and/or occasionally.

I'm glad your DD is nursing more! Nursing strikes do happen, and just powering through by offering as much as possible seems to be one good way to get through. Kellymom.com has some good resources on them if it crops up again.