Picking a school is like rolling dice

[AllisonR]

My DC will start school this August. Every.single.person I have talked with says that the teacher and the chemistry between the students in the class is by far the most important factor.

They say the actual school, where it is located, the average test scores in later grades, the number of students, whether it is public or private.... is not very important. Even the parents of kids in private schools say this. The parents say the absolute biggest determinant is if the 18-26 kids in the class work well together and if the teacher is passionate and can work well with all the kids. If there are 2 or 3 disruptive kids but the teacher can work with them and still find a good amount of quality time with the rest of the class, then this will be a successful class. If the kids are not too cliquish and there is no teasing, this will make a great class.

I say "well, that's like a crapshoot. You never know what you are going to get. I know 4 or 5 of the kids my DS will start school with, but I don't know the other 20 kids. And since he hasn't started, I don't really know the teachers at all. I've met them, but can't tell from an hour conversation how they will be with 25 kids I don't know. I can't see into the future, so how am I supposed to make a qualified decision?"

The replies I have gotten are "You don't know. It will probably be fine. You just have to wait and see."

Not sure what I am asking here. Maybe, is this true in your experience? Does this even make sense? I suppose I feel somewhat powerless over a really huge decision.

[One_Girl]

I have found that we always just had to wait and see even after doing interviews and observations. Some teachers interview really well, or not well at all, but turn out to be the oppossite of your impression of them once they are actually teaching. You can also have a wonderful teacher the first year and horrible the next. Moving from preschool to kindergarten is also very stressful because you lose a lot of control over what teachers do with your kid whether they are in public or private school, especially if your private schools have waiting lists and don't need to work with you to retain your child. Try to let some of the stress go and trust that things will work out. Having a backup plan may put your mind at ease about the lack of control over what is going to happen.

[LynnS6]

I disagree -- I think that the 'culture' of the school, the quality of the teachers and their traning makes a huge difference. School policies and the principal can make a huge difference there.

For example, our school has a dynamite principal. She's introduced amazing educational reforms and training so that the teachers are really trained to reach a lot of different kinds of kids. They've closed the achievement gap for the poor and minority kids at our school.

The discipline system they use (Positive Behavior Intervention System) focuses on setting clear expectations for everyone, catching kids being 'good' and having effective interventions when things go wrong. We have a population (85% free and reduced lunch) who could be prone to a lot of behavioral problems. There aren't many. Fewer than at other schools. The kids are genuinely kind and helpful. They're respectful.

Our school has invested resources heavily into teaching and behavioral support. They've set the stage so that kids can learn. There is minimal bullying. Behavioral issues are dealt with effectively and swiftly. When I've had a concern, our son's teachers have gotten back to us soon, and been willing to work with us.

Good teaching can be taught. Effective discipline can be taught. But there has to be someone at the top who is insisting on that. If the teachers are well trained, you don't have to rely on 'chemistry' to make the class work.

I think you can get a good sense of what a school is like from visiting. What message are you getting from the principal and staff? How do the staff treat the kids? How are the kids behaved during transitions from one activity to another? What's going on in the classroom? Are the kids on task? Is there controlled activity or is it out of control? What are the kids doing when the teacher's not looking?

[ollyoxenfree]

I agree that ultimately, the classroom teacher has the most direct influence on whether school is successful for a child. It's the teacher who sets the tone in the classroom, who inspires and motivates (or should), who figures out how to engage and challenge the student in the learning process.

I think you are more likely to find good teachers in schools with strong but flexible administrations. A good principal supports the teachers and sets the tone for the entire school community with attention to best educational practices. A good principal has a good working relationship with the parents. A good principal nurtures a respectful, caring school community with positive discipline and a joy for learning. A good principal is also helpful to parents and the student when things aren't working out with a particular teacher.

I've encountered bad teachers in good schools. I'm sure there are good teachers in bad schools. Generally, though, I've found that if the school is a happy place the teaching staff are pretty good too.

I would also point the finger at parents too though. There are some toxic parent communities that make a school an unhappy place. We had one bad experience at one school, and it was the out-of-control parents who were responsible, not the teachers or the administration.

A little OT, but I'll also say that I've taken advantage of the life lessons when my kids have landed in a class with a teacher who isn't a good fit for them. It's been an opportunity for them to learn how to negotiate their way in sub-optimal circumstances. Thankfully, it's happened rarely, but when it has, my dc have developed some independent learning skills and personal relationship skills in that situation.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree

Generally, though, I've found that if the school is a happy place the teaching staff are pretty good too.

I agree!

Our school also has a positive behavioral system in place, as Lynn describes, and I think that helps a lot, too. But the general climate of the school is a good indication, imo. Not every child and teacher will be a perfect match, but if the general climate is one of problem solving and working together, it will almost certainly be ok in the end.

Originally Posted by AllisonR

I say "well, that's like a crapshoot. You never know what you are going to get. I know 4 or 5 of the kids my DS will start school with, but I don't know the other 20 kids. And since he hasn't started, I don't really know the teachers at all. I've met them, but can't tell from an hour conversation how they will be with 25 kids I don't know. I can't see into the future, so how am I supposed to make a qualified decision?"

Think you are putting way too much pressure on yourself. Much of this situation is out of your control. It is an exercise in trust: trusting the school community to care for your dc, trusting your dc to be grow with resilience, trusting yourself to know if/when change is in order.

[PluggingAway]

OP, you are not alone. I've been struggling with the same thoughts when considering schooling options for my oldest son. What helpful feedback from the replies!

[mumm]

Once you have several kids go through the same system, you'll see just how each kid takes something different away. My son has had a rough schooling experience thus far (3rd grade- two brand new teachers in 1 & 3 and an earthy-crunchy holistic teacher for 2nd who doesn't have strong academics) While my daughter (1st G) has totally bought in to the system and has had two very even keeled, skills minded teachers in no-nonsense classrooms. Same curricula, etc, but very different experiences.

[ahpo5]

You've already gotten some great advice. I completely agree the teacher and even more importantly the principal has significant impact on the school you choose. I wanted to point out, its quite a transition for us parents (esp when we practice attachment parenting or something along those lines) to realize we really do give up some control in terms of what our kids experience and with whom. *Some* control, but not all, and IMO home is still the most important place period (remember, there are always other schools, if the current one you have in mind really does end up not working out). So as someone else said above, don't put so much pressure on yourself. We mothers have natural instincts and as long as you're paying attention to that, I'm sure you will pick up on something potentially awful, even IF you don't know the x other kids your child will be in class with. Following that, realize too you did spend 5+ years with your child (if they are going into K), giving them a healthy, solid foundation that they will bring to whatever experience they have in school. AND every day that they are in school, you will help them navigate that school experience.

I was a bit neurotic asking every person I knew at my sons school, before he started K, all about their opinions and experiences with the school, the different teachers, and so on. We have 5 Kindergarten teachers, its a big public school. I immediately resonated with one--I spent only 10 minutes in her class observing!--and politely requested my son be in her class. I'm very lucky that it worked out, and if my experience can help you any, I honestly feel I work with her every day my son is her student, and those previous feelings of utter lack of control (i.e. the crapshoot as you put it) are gone, or at least put at ease. I volunteer every week if I can, I go on field trips, I'm a class parent, I make friendly conversation with her when I pick him up, I ask her or email her when I have questions and concerns. And my son is very, very, very happy.

[philomom]

No. Choosing a good school environment is nowhere nearly as chancy as rolling the dice.

[Girlprof]

I also suggest going to meet the principal. We got a new principal the year my son started KG and the parents were worried because the departing principal was much beloved. Well, the new one is at least as good. By Hallowe'en, she not only knew all of our names, she knew the person we brought with us to the Hallowe'en party was not a school regular. There are better and less good teachers at the school, but the principal is steering the whole ship, and ours is steering it well.

We had a fabulous KG teacher. I have a close friend who taught with her and told me how good she was, but even so, even having my child in her class, I would say, I didn't understand how good she was until maybe March. I was just ready to criticize everything, you know? Stuff that really didn't matter, and it took me awhile and a fair amount of time in the classroom to see what she was up to. DS's teacher this year is more so-so, but the whole environment of the school is so positive. I would say that nearly all of the adults in the building are showing the kids every day that learning and being kind to each other are both very important and the kids almost all understand this message. This message comes from classroom teachers, "specials" teachers, aides, parent volunteers, even the janitorial staff. The principal is the one making sure that this happens.

[Linda on the move]

I think the principal makes a HUGE difference. Ours has been at the school for something like 20 years and hired most of the rest of the staff. The environment is one of treating kids like individuals worthy of respect. He joked with me once that he was a really bad kid back in the days before they labeled ADHD. He doesn't put up with nonsense from the students, but he never stops believing that they are capable of turning out great, even when they aren't showing it.

So I totally trust his staff picks and the way things are handled at the school. Of course my kids have had classmates with issues, but I like the way that the staff deals with stuff when it comes up.

You do let go of some control when you let your child attend school, and I did find it scary at first. But for us it ended up meaning that my kids have more people in their lives who see them as special and wonderful and teach them interesting things.