Maybe it's my unschooling metallity that I just don't get this UPDATE in 67 He called - Page 2

[Roar]

Originally Posted by heatherdeg

2) precedent had been set that it was okay. If that were my kid, he would think that the coach didn't like him or was being mean to him specifically to have done something like that for no reason. I think spending time crying about that wouldn't be overreacting, either. It would hurt ME to think that someone "had it in for me" by arbitrarily taking away something I liked for no reason all of a sudden. They're still figuring all of this out.

And, that's why instead of parents getting angry it is good once the child has calmed down to help them learn to consider the perspective of other people in the situation instead of simply assuming the worst. Instead of encouraging the child to believe someone had it in for them, how about exploring reasons why the coach would want them to practice. It may well be that with greater understanding of the situation the kids would happily give up the first half an hour of their two hour playtime to work on their practice a bit more. Or, maybe not, but if what they believe if the coach is out to get them, that indicates they don't understand the situation well enough to make an informed decision.

[Needle in the Hay]

Does the rink have a helmet rule? If not, I would not comply with his "suggestion". If he says anything I would just say "She's OK, I'm watching her". He doesn't get to make rules for kids enjoying open skate under their parents' supervision.

If it is a rule to wear helmets at the rink that's different, but I'll wait to know for sure before commenting further as to not waste anyone's time!

I can relate to this somewhat because my son takes swim lessons and then stays for open swim. We follow the coach's rule of not going into the pool before the lesson even though sometimes it would be so convenient if we could get there an hour before and he could have playtime before rather than after the lesson. However, that playtime after the lesson is for him to do as he pleases (barring breaking rules of the pool or otherwise infringing upon the rights of others). If the coach thought he should be doing laps and tried to enforce a rule (such as no jumping into the pool unless you swim to the other end after) I wouldn't follow it. He's like any other kid there once the lesson is over. Fortunately his swim coach is great and this hasn't happened.

I would like to challenge the assumption by a PP that the OP's daughter isn't serious about skating. It sounds like she is very serious about it. If she weren't she wouldn't choose to go every week. It sounds like she is making fast progress which means that during her lessons she is paying attention.

I know my son is serious about swimming even though it's all for his enjoyment. He listens to the coach, follows instructions, tries his best and looks forward to his lesson each week. He does not however practice laps in his spare time. He just has fun in the pool and swims when he needs to (such as after jumping in the deep end).

[GoBecGo]

I wonder...i have a friend who teaches tennis to kids and he gets about 2 emails a week from parents saying "we pay you x-amount, why isn't our child playing at the national level yet?". Maybe he's been told "they're not serious" before, only for the parents then to turn around and demand their "results" a few months later?

People have a lot of different expectations, but sadly it is probably pretty common for a parent paying for "lessons" to want to see "results". I pulled my DD from her dance class because her teacher felt it imperative she a) "get over" missing me, b) learn to "enjoy" the screaming and shouting of the other 30 little girls (many of whom were crying because they were also yet to "get over" missing their mum) and c) stand in a line and learn routines for nearly an hour, with a small amount of free movement time. That teacher is VERY good (she teaches all ages) but she is a tad too serious for our family - she gives out attendance awards, to 3 year olds, because "perfect attendance makes you a better dancer"! So yeah, it is common for teachers to take what they are teaching soooo seriously they lose sight of what individual pupils are wanting to get from it.

Hopefully your email will clarify for him and he'll respond in a more reassuring way.

[Callimom]

Perhaps there is an (unstated?) expectation by the coach that the "free" time after the lesson be used to work on skills from lesson.
Perhaps the lesson that day didn't go so well and he was frustrated at the lack of momentum in their skills etc and sees the toy playing after the lesson to be contributing to that. Perhaps your daughter and her friend were sending off the vibe that they wanted to "rush through" the lesson to get to the doll playing and that contributed to his feelings that they may not be capable and/or serious enough in wanting to develop their skills to warrant the Helmets off rule.

OP, I would assume positive intent and work to clarify both his expectations/understanding and your own. He may not be the right coach for your daughter, which is good information to have for the future. There may be other ways to solve the problem - ie 30 minutes of post lesson practise before the dolls come out or bringing the dolls to skate on a non lesson day.

I run a non competitive homeschool soccer league as well as a series of co-ops and I do agree with Roar that I often find homeschoolers (and more often unschoolers ime) have some trouble finding the right balance between respecting the intent of the lesson, the coaches efforts and the rights of others with their own need to find joy in all their learning. IME that struggle to find the balance often comes to a head when the coaches feel a kid isn't "serious enough" and it usually means the coach feels their efforts are being disrespected and that the kids aren't willing/able to meet expectations for effort, attitude and commitment. In our league we stress that it is supposed to be fun and that the coaches work hard to make it fun but that fun happens within the parameters of the philosophy of effort and respect and that the coach is the one that guides that - not the kids.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily what is happening in the OPs situation, and if it was I don't know that the coach handled it very well, but I do think it is something worth being aware of because it might help the OP diffuse the situation.

Good luck
Karen

[mommy2maya]

Maybe it is as simple as that playing with the dolls while skating takes their full attention from skating safety and leaves more risk of falling/crashing into another skater/etc.

[karne]

We do a fair amount of skating, and frankly, I can't imagine little kids skating along bent over with their dolls working out well on the ice. At least at our rink that would pose a safety hazard for the skaters. I guess I think it's reasonable to wear a helmet if you are going to be skating around on the ice and not putting your full attention into the skating. I know that wasn't the coaches rationale, according to the op, but as a mom that's what I would do. Different rinks, I guess, but that just doesn't seem like something to go to the mat for.

ETA: This could have actually been a place for the OP to model flexibility and thoughtfulness, IE "Even though I know it seems unfair that you used to skate without a helmet, and now you can't, there are actually some good safety reasons for us to consider this for our family. I think you would be safer this way, and your safety is important to me".

[Needle in the Hay]

Originally Posted by mommy2maya

Maybe it is as simple as that playing with the dolls while skating takes their full attention from skating safety and leaves more risk of falling/crashing into another skater/etc.

Actually my first thought as to what I would have done (not that the OP asked) was that I would have just told my child it was a safety issue since they are bending down and playing which is different from regular skating.

The coach, it seems, said it isn't a matter of safety but of him wanting them to practice more. If there's no helmet rule at the rink and the moms are OK with the skate/play without helmets then I think he is being disrespectful of them as parents.

But yeah, if it had been me I probably would have assumed it was about safety and put the helmet on after explaining it to my dc.

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi

Either way, what I said stands. This coach is not a fit for these girls. He expects a certain standard of behavior that they don't want to be held to. Time to move on. I doubt this is the only coach in town, and the girls are not serious about skating anyway.

Yes, this. Why not just bring the girls to the rink on non-lesson time so they can skate with dolls, and then have them be serious during lessons? My kids are in sports that they are not going to be professional in, but during practice, they still need to respect the sport and the rules of the coach. If my son brought his light saber to his martial arts class and liked playing with it, it would certainly be a distraction to those who came to learn, and it would be disrespectful to the sensai. He may not be going pro in martial arts, but I expect that he gives his full attention. If he wants to play with his light saber in the dojo, he does it during free time/open gym.

[hipumpkins]

Originally Posted by Needle in the Hay

Does the rink have a helmet rule? If not, I would not comply with his "suggestion". If he says anything I would just say "She's OK, I'm watching her". He doesn't get to make rules for kids enjoying open skate under their parents' supervision.

If it is a rule to wear helmets at the rink that's different, but I'll wait to know for sure before commenting further as to not waste anyone's time!

I can relate to this somewhat because my son takes swim lessons and then stays for open swim. We follow the coach's rule of not going into the pool before the lesson even though sometimes it would be so convenient if we could get there an hour before and he could have playtime before rather than after the lesson. However, that playtime after the lesson is for him to do as he pleases (barring breaking rules of the pool or otherwise infringing upon the rights of others). If the coach thought he should be doing laps and tried to enforce a rule (such as no jumping into the pool unless you swim to the other end after) I wouldn't follow it. He's like any other kid there once the lesson is over. Fortunately his swim coach is great and this hasn't happened.

I would like to challenge the assumption by a PP that the OP's daughter isn't serious about skating. It sounds like she is very serious about it. If she weren't she wouldn't choose to go every week. It sounds like she is making fast progress which means that during her lessons she is paying attention.

I know my son is serious about swimming even though it's all for his enjoyment. He listens to the coach, follows instructions, tries his best and looks forward to his lesson each week. He does not however practice laps in his spare time. He just has fun in the pool and swims when he needs to (such as after jumping in the deep end).

Yes this exactly!!!

Originally Posted by AllyRae

Yes, this. Why not just bring the girls to the rink on non-lesson time so they can skate with dolls, and then have them be serious during lessons? My kids are in sports that they are not going to be professional in, but during practice, they still need to respect the sport and the rules of the coach. If my son brought his light saber to his martial arts class and liked playing with it, it would certainly be a distraction to those who came to learn, and it would be disrespectful to the sensai. He may not be going pro in martial arts, but I expect that he gives his full attention. If he wants to play with his light saber in the dojo, he does it during free time/open gym.

Can you even see what I am writing? It is during FREE TIME! It is the same thing you are saying. It is NOT during class. It is free public skate time.


If everyone would stop assuming things that aren't going on it would make this thread much easier.
The kids aren't disruptive in class. they pay attention and learn.
After class for 15 minutes( per my requirement )they practice the skills they learn.
After those 15 minutes they can play together and skate or not skate or eat snacks or any other thing that anyone else might go to a rink for.
We are there during the day . the maximum amount of people on the ice is is maybe 9 or 10. 4 of which are our kids from the lessons.
There is NO helmet rule outside of of the younger kids in beginning skating class.
There is no danger in them playing with the dolls. As matter fact on several occasions the skate guard and another teacher were using the dolls making the dolls do fancy moves.
It was just fun.
the coach used the fact that he recently approved the skill level to that of not having to wear a helmet.
He retracted that simply based on the fact that they were not practicing the way he wanted him them to ON THEIR OWN TIME not during class. I can not believe I have to explain this to gentle parents who would not threaten their kids or use manipulative tactics to teach them but when a someone deemed a teacher or as some are calling him Coach it is perfectly alright. How can you not see the injustice.
Have you really never seen someone manipulate a kid into doing something by threatening them with a lost privilege?

[hipumpkins]

This could have actually been a place for the OP to model flexibility and thoughtfulness, IE "Even though I know it seems unfair that you used to skate without a helmet, and now you can't, there are actually some good safety reasons for us to consider this for our family. I think you would be safer this way, and your safety is important to me".

It WAS unfair..it didn't SEEM unfair. It had nothing to do with safety. I am not going to lie to daughter simply to make his arbitrary rule more palatable.
Her safety is important to me but I don't put being safe as the be all end all in life. Yes we take risks and when the risks lessen we loosen the reigns.
I don't still cut up her food small although I'm sure there is small chance she could choke.
I'm not going to tell her that if she doesn't eat her breakfast than from now on I am cutting her food up really small.
One has nothing to do with other just as the helmet rule has nothing to do with safety ADMITTED by the teacher.

[AllyRae]

I did read what you said. You said they came out with their teacher. You didn't say "the teacher showed up during open public free skate". You gave the impression that the teacher was at that time in charge of your child because you paid for him to oversee your child for that period of time (the post-lesson free skate). I don't understand why, if the coach was just there coincidentally and there were no lessons going on, that you didn't just politely say "thank you for your concern. We will make sure that our child follows your rules during lessons. This is free skate time for the public though, and so I think our child is fine skating how she is, unless you can show me the rink's rules otherwise".

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by Roar

Say you've got a favorite restaurant and they no longer carry the favorite soup you always order. Is it appropriate to cry for a great deal of time and feel deep anger over that?

If I was 7? And found out about it when the waiter brought out a salad instead of my favorite soup? After taking my order for soup and saying "sure thing, be right out with that"? And then told me I should be more serious about eating at restaurants and that salad was the only proper starting course for a true gourmet? Yeah, it'd be appropriate to cry for 10-15 minutes.

(As an adult, if that happened, it'd be appropriate to summon the manager and complain about the waiter.)

[hipumpkins]

Ok.
From 10-10:30 the girls skate. After their lesson he teaches another class at the other end of the rink lest anyone assume the dolls are disrupting the to other class.
When that class was over he skated over to the girls told them that if they were going to play they had to wear helmets.
The playing BTW is much safer than what they learn in class without helmets.
They walked out together b/c he brought them off the ice and he was heading to the office to get ready to go home.
saying, "If they are going to be serious skaters etc..."

BTW
I never thought I would have defend myself in here about this.
I thought this thread would go down the route of kids being expected to be serious in sports at such young ages. I thought I would get dancing school stories about too much pressure, too serious, things aren't fun anymore it's all about them being professionals.
I didn't think this would turn into an attack on how sensitive my daughter is, how inflexible I am to arbitrary rules and how I should teach my child the same thing.

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

If I was 7? And found out about it when the waiter brought out a salad instead of my favorite soup? After taking my order for soup and saying "sure thing, be right out with that"? And then told me I should be more serious about eating at restaurants and that salad was the only proper starting course for a true gourmet? Yeah, it'd be appropriate to cry for 10-15 minutes.

(As an adult, if that happened, it'd be appropriate to summon the manager and complain about the waiter.)

But she's not being told that she can't have soup. She's being told that the soup might be a little messy if she's going to play with toys at the restaurant table, so she needs to wear a bib while eating it.

The girl wasn't told she couldn't skate with her doll. She wasn't told that she had to wear a helmet while skating. She was told that she needs to wear a helmet while skating with the doll. And at 7, yes, crying for 15 minutes over that is probably a bit of an overreaction. Teaching a child to be flexible is a good skill. A child can be upset over something that is unfair without having a tantrum or crying for 15 minutes. But, and this is also entirelly possible, the child might only have been crying for 5 minutes. I know for me, 5 minutes of a public meltdown seems like an eternity to me. I would have taken my child and left long before it hit 15 minutes because having a meltdown wouldn't have changed the outcome. Either the two parties work it out, or we leave and take a break because sitting there for 15 minutes with a crying child would have personally driven me insane. :

[sapphire_chan]

Valid reasons for requiring helmets outside of class time that are not required during class time:

1 Teacher has no control over the type of skating the girls will be doing and it might not be as safe as the set things they are asked to do in class.

2 Other kids see some kids don't have to wear helmets, easier to have a rule of helmets for everyone during free skate time.

Both of those would make sense to allow them to take the helmets off to go do practice work, since they'd be doing their class exercises and would be clearly apart from the general free skating.

3 During class, the teacher is liable for not wearing the helmets, outside of class, the rink is liable, and the rink owner isn't okay with that.


Any of those might be the case, except the coach didn't mention any of it when questioned about why he wanted the girls to wear their helmets after the class when they didn't have to wear them during class.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by AllyRae

But she's not being told that she can't have soup. She's being told that the soup might be a little messy if she's going to play with toys at the restaurant table, so she needs to wear a bib while eating it.

Because she's a little baby who doesn't know how to eat her soup like a big girl. You have to wear a BABY BIB because you are bad at eating soup and could make a nasty mess.

Remember, she's SEVEN. Think about how a rule change with no explanation is going to seem to a 7 year old.

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by hipumpkins

together b/c he brought them off the ice and he was heading to the office to get ready to go home.
saying, "If they are going to be serious skaters etc..."

Maybe I'm just a snot, but I would have simply said "at this time, she has no interest in pursuing an olympic figure skating career. She just wants to have fun. But thank you for your concern. See you next week!" and left it at that. It would have shown your child how to stand up for herself in a polite manner, that rules apply in certain settings but don't necessarily get generalized across the board, and that she doesn't have to worry about being serious. It also would have shown her how to handle the situation in a calm, polite manner without taking it to heart. All are good skills to learn. It for sure was a great learning opportunity!

[sapphire_chan]

Frankly, hipumpkins, I think you'd get better responses in the general parenting forum without mentioning unschooling. Maybe then people could step away from thinking that the coach had some good solid reason for changing the rules and that your dd just needs to learn about following rules.

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Because she's a little baby who doesn't know how to eat her soup like a big girl. You have to wear a BABY BIB because you are bad at eating soup and could make a nasty mess.

Remember, she's SEVEN. Think about how a rule change with no explanation is going to seem to a 7 year old.

I have an almost 7 year old. He also has aspergers. Boy do I know what rule changes can do. That's why I take every instance of that as a learning opportunity to teach him how to handle input from others with grace and courtesy. At 7, it might be someone commenting about how she should wear a helmet while skating with toys. At 17, it might be someone commenting about how her clothes aren't "in" anymore. At 27, it might be someone commenting about how she should cover up while nursing her baby. The way we teach our children at 7 to handle "sudden rule changes" and people offering unsolicited advice will influence how she handles it in the future.

[hipumpkins]

Really you can't console your child for 15 minutes? She wasn't having meltdown and screaming she was crying. Her feeling were hurt. I'm not going to tell her, Oh well now your sad so now we leave. So if your kid is upset you ruin the whole day for everyone by making them leave and not just sitting with your kid consoling them? I don't get that at all.
Maybe you are picturing me seething angry and fighting with him.
That's not true. I sat with my daughter comforted her. Told her it was probably safety rule but she knew it wasn't b/c it was not being enforced for other people.
I went in to the office asked him if it was safety. He said NO. So in that I am supposed to go back and lie to my daughter? Tel her it was when she sees clearly it isn't.
I went back and told her that we would try and work it out but for now there was only a bit of time left to skate and did she want to continue on skating or did she feel done.