Maybe it's my unschooling metallity that I just don't get this UPDATE in 67 He called - Page 3

[hipumpkins]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Frankly, hipumpkins, I think you'd get better responses in the general parenting forum without mentioning unschooling. Maybe then people could step away from thinking that the coach had some good solid reason for changing the rules and that your dd just needs to learn about following rules.

you're right. I gotta get outta here.

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by hipumpkins

Really you can't console your child for 15 minutes? She wasn't having meltdown and screaming she was crying. Her feeling were hurt. I'm not going to tell her, Oh well now your sad so now we leave. So if your kid is upset you ruin the whole day for everyone by making them leave and not just sitting with your kid consoling them? I don't get that at all.

It's not like I would toss him in the carseat and drive off after saying "you baby, stop your crying!". I would have first told the coach that it was open skate time and blah blah blah. Then if that didnt' work, I would have turned to my child and said "I understand that you're upset about this. Sometimes people like to step in and give advice that may or may not be correct. It's upsetting when people tell us things that we know aren't right. We can either keep skating and have some fun, or if you are too upset and don't think you can have fun, we can leave and come back later when you've had a chance to cool down some."

[sapphire_chan]

Just to be perfectly clear, if helmets aren't required for EVERYONE free skating, then they shouldn't be required for the girls who are enrolled in the class while free skating.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by AllyRae

It's not like I would toss him in the carseat and drive off after saying "you baby, stop your crying!". I would have first told the coach that it was open skate time and blah blah blah. Then if that didnt' work, I would have turned to my child and said "I understand that you're upset about this. Sometimes people like to step in and give advice that may or may not be correct. It's upsetting when people tell us things that we know aren't right. We can either keep skating and have some fun, or if you are too upset and don't think you can have fun, we can leave and come back later when you've had a chance to cool down some."

See to me that means you would've had your ds ignore the teacher's arbitrary rule change and just go skate without a helmet.

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Just to be perfectly clear, if helmets aren't required for EVERYONE free skating, then they shouldn't be required for the girls who are enrolled in the class while free skating.

Yes, that's true. And, at free skating, the teacher is no longer in charge, right? So, I guess the part I don't get is why it couldn't have just been a simple "thanks but no thanks" and then continue on as you were? I mean, he can't enforce an arbitrary rule where he has no authority, right? So, the whole thing should have been a complete non-issue. If the rule was arbitrary, had no way to be enforced, why not just let the child do as the rink rules allow and tell the coach that you appreciate the concern but it's outside of class time?

That's what I'm getting at. This all seems like a total non issue to me. If I'm understanding this correctly, the coach said something, it wasn't something that could be enforced, he was leaving to go home anyhow, and there are no rink rules about it. So, just telling him thanks but no thanks and going on your merry way. And when told that serious skaters couldn't do that, just say "she doesn't want to be an olympian. she just wants to have fun" and leave it at that?

[AllyRae]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

See to me that means you would've had your ds ignore the teacher's arbitrary rule change and just go skate without a helmet.

If the teacher wasn't in charge, and it was public free skate time, and the rink had no such rules? Yep. It wouldn't have escalated to having an upset crying child because there was no need for it to. As long as he's following the rules in place by those in charge at a particular time, I would have let him continue. I would have simply told the coach that it was free time and he was having fun, and I would make sure he stayed safe and followed rink rules. If the teacher WAS in charge at the time, I would have him follow the teacher's rules.

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by hipumpkins

Here's the problem, they are not under his supervision when they are playing. The class is OVER. The class is for 30 minutes AFTER the class the girls play. He deemed it his responsibility for not wearing the helmet and turned it into "because your advanced skaters" assuring us the mothers the girls were ready to be helmetless.. So if they are ready the helmets do not affect the ability to play with dolls.
It is open skate time at the rink. Open to the public. During this time classes also go on.
My daughter is highly sensitive and yes she could feel the injustice and the fact that he was trying to make them practice by manipulating the playtime.
This is not about us not following the rules. We follow all the rules of the rink and even the class time. I do not think it is fair to make up a rule in order to make someone do as you wish b/c you see yourself as in charge.

Coach is in charge (assuming he's not being a complete asshat) during lesson. After lesson I'm in charge. I'd thank him for his interest and *in front of him* tell my kid she did not have to wear her helmet unless it is a rink rule. I'd put on my big Southern girl smile and tell the kids, "Y'all go play now and have fun. Great lesson." Then I'd let him know that I appreciate his instruction during class, but I've got them now.

And then I'd find another teacher.

[hipumpkins]

Allyrae, you are right. This thread was never intended to prove the right wrongness of my behavior b/c actually everything was handled fine. My daughter didn't escalate in crying. He called out the rule she started crying b/c she is VERY sensitive. (One of her many issues that led us to unschooling thank you very much) Maybe you think she overreacted but that is really not anyone's concern but mine and hers . The point of the thread was..Why can't he just let them have fun??? why did he even have to make up this rule to claim as serious skaters when we have been over it with him.
It was the manipulation of his words that I am complaining about. Not the helmet rule. I don't care about the rule.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by hipumpkins

Allyrae, you are right. This thread was never intended to prove the right wrongness of my behavior b/c actually everything was handled fine. My daughter didn't escalate in crying. He called out the rule she started crying b/c she is VERY sensitive. (One of her many issues that led us to unschooling thank you very much) Maybe you think she overreacted but that is really not anyone's concern but mine and hers . The point of the thread was..Why can't he just let them have fun??? why did he even have to make up this rule to claim as serious skaters when we have been over it with him.
It was the manipulation of his words that I am complaining about. Not the helmet rule. I don't care about the rule.

I was like this as a kid. And it wasn't because i couldn't accept authority, it was because i COULD and did. I can remember a riding instructor telling me in front of the whole group that if i couldn't "canter correctly" (i'd learned on friends ponies in fields and though i had a good seat i was NOT a neat-and-tidy rider at 8!) i'd have to go back on the lead rope "for my own safety". Not a single child in that class could canter at all, let alone "correctly" (i was bumping a little, in the UK so riding english, on a horse i'd never ridden before in a school i'd never ridden in before with a teacher i'd never met before) and NONE of them was on a lead rein, since we could all go and stop at walk and trot safely.

I was DEVASTATED. She was punishing me because of HER expectations, which were based on her experiences of seeing kids who had never ridden a non-school horse and had been taught every second they were in the saddle, were unmet in me, and also, i think, because she'd commented to my mother that i had a "great seat" when i first rode in, and she felt stupid that i didn't prove to be the perfect rider she was expecting...? I can remember how humiliated and confused i felt even now. I really respected her, because she was my teacher, and she basically said "because you haven't lived up to my expectation today you are a baby who cannot ride properly at all". In the event she let me have "one more chance" to "prove" i could ride and i managed a nifty (but probably messy!) flying change the next time i cantered, which shut her up, but i still felt badly about it and went back to the fields where riding was fun for another 2 years.

I don't think it's your unschooling mindset, because i'm not an unschooler or even planning to be a homeschooler, and i still think that there is way too much emphasis on success in every activity for everyone, children and adults, nowadays. It's like we can't just DO anything - either you're not good at it, so why waste your time and the teacher's, or you could be amazing so why aren't you working harder?! I was somewhat gifted as a child (but got caught up with by most peers when i went to university) and i LOVE to run. I am terrible! If i train consistently i can run 10min/miles. That is s-l-o-w, but you know, it's fun, and i like it. I hope to teach my kids that it's ok to excel at being happy with your achievements, without those achievements having to be Olympic standard.

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

If I was 7? And found out about it when the waiter brought out a salad instead of my favorite soup? After taking my order for soup and saying "sure thing, be right out with that"? And then told me I should be more serious about eating at restaurants and that salad was the only proper starting course for a true gourmet? Yeah, it'd be appropriate to cry for 10-15 minutes.

(As an adult, if that happened, it'd be appropriate to summon the manager and complain about the waiter.)

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Frankly, hipumpkins, I think you'd get better responses in the general parenting forum without mentioning unschooling. Maybe then people could step away from thinking that the coach had some good solid reason for changing the rules and that your dd just needs to learn about following rules.

... all of that.

[WCM]

I actually thought the opposite, that this post would be best understood and supported in the unschooling forum. I'm sorry for all the grief you're getting OP. I think unschooling is all about listening to your child and then meeting their needs, and there is a greater lesson in that. And by doing so, they will be more open to how to deal with this situation in the future, or can help brainstorm solutions.

My son would be upset if his fave restaurant suddenly stopped serving the one thing he looked forward to eating. He would cry perhaps, as his expectations were abruptly unmet without any prior nowledge. and we would work out a solution, maybe trying something new, asking if said item was still available (why is it wrong to ask? He's not demanding it, he's asking. Maybe it was a misprint, maybe there's a lunch menu that it's on and we've misread). And we'd deal with the situation.

As an adult I've learned to roll with the punches, but it wasn't because my needs were dissed as a kid. It was because I had time to reflect and see my choices.

[Needle in the Hay]

Originally Posted by hipumpkins

Allyrae, you are right. This thread was never intended to prove the right wrongness of my behavior b/c actually everything was handled fine. My daughter didn't escalate in crying. He called out the rule she started crying b/c she is VERY sensitive. (One of her many issues that led us to unschooling thank you very much) Maybe you think she overreacted but that is really not anyone's concern but mine and hers . The point of the thread was..Why can't he just let them have fun??? why did he even have to make up this rule to claim as serious skaters when we have been over it with him.
It was the manipulation of his words that I am complaining about. Not the helmet rule. I don't care about the rule.

I just want to say, since I didn't say it before, that I think you absolutely handled it fine and that your daughter's reaction was perfectly understandable. I said I'd probably assume it was a safety issue and that my kid would probably wear the helmet after an explanation, but the more I think about the more i realize that there was probably more said in the way he said it so that you knew darn well he wasn't worried about safety. In any case I get easily ticked at people undermining a mother's authority and think you are responsible for your child during free skate and it's none of the coach's business how she spends that time. I am ticked at this coach just reading about it! Any reply to your email?

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by AllyRae

It's not like I would toss him in the carseat and drive off after saying "you baby, stop your crying!". I would have first told the coach that it was open skate time and blah blah blah. Then if that didnt' work

Didn't work? I don't even see that as an option. I'd have made eye contact with the coach, asserted it was free skate time and told my child to go skate.

Of course, I'd have done what the OP did first, going to talk to the coach to find out the deal. But after having clarified the issue, I would be ring side next time firmly and politely advocating my child's rights. If there are official rules, that's another matter. My ds is very reasonable and we do follow any official rules or generally practiced guidelines when we go places. Analogies about running in the library or whatever or accepting authority have nothing to do with the situation. The coach was in a snit about the girls not seriously practicing out of class and decided to make a power play. I'm going to politely role model to ds how to handle that situation.

Hipumpkins, I don't understand the mindset that every endeavor must be undertaken as if preparing for a profession or competition, either. It's so hard to find activities for kids beyond preschool without that attitude.

[midnightwriter]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Frankly, hipumpkins, I think you'd get better responses in the general parenting forum without mentioning unschooling. Maybe then people could step away from thinking that the coach had some good solid reason for changing the rules and that your dd just needs to learn about following rules.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic. Are you implying that because the child is unschooled posters here are unnecessary critical and are assuming the worst about the child and how the parent handled the situation?

If so, do you mean that other unschoolers are more critical towards those who challenge authority because of their fear to be perceived as too liberal? Or do you mean that those who do not support unschooling lurk in this forum and would reply with their opinions that are not supportive of unschooling mindset?

This is a forum to support unschooling, and I'm perplexed by the responses in this thread. I'm curious whether the posters who were defensive are unschoolers or not. Interesting dynamics, that's for sure.

[Piglet68]

OMG. I can't believe how this thread has gotten so completely out of hand, lol. All my years on MDC and it still amazes me how a simple venting post can get picked apart, analyzed, and so many people are willing to make judgement calls on the OP.

hipumpkins, I so totally get where you are coming from. I, too, get frustrated by the attitude in kids' sports that it should be all about competition and getting serious and training, etc. My kids are there for one reason: to have fun. They may learn stuff, improve their physical fitness, but if they don't enjoy it then it's pointless IMO. The coaches (and the parents - who are often 10x worse!) get so serious about it all. It's like everybody's forgotten that sports are supposed to be fun!

I get what you were saying about using the helmet rule as manipulation. It was wrong. Kids see right through this kind of bullsh*t and your DD was understandably feeling betrayed. My DD would bawl too if someone pulled that on her. Whether there was a rule about helmets, whether it was free time, etc...the point is the coach was using this as some sort of coercive ploy to "encourage" the girls to "get serious" about their practice. It's utter crap and kids are too smart not to see right through it.

hugs to you!

[Roar]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

If I was 7? And found out about it when the waiter brought out a salad instead of my favorite soup? After taking my order for soup and saying "sure thing, be right out with that"? And then told me I should be more serious about eating at restaurants and that salad was the only proper starting course for a true gourmet? Yeah, it'd be appropriate to cry for 10-15 minutes.

Of course the coach/teacher should have a different relationship with you than a random waiter. A more analogous situation may be if you were attending a cooking class and you'd gotten used to hanging out after class painting with pudding but this time the teacher said that if you wanted to be more serious about developing your cooking skills another activity would be better and then you went and cried for 15 minutes about it.

That said, even with the random waiter I would not find it appropriate to cry for 15 minutes about that and have it ruin the rest of the day. Instead I'd talk about how not everyone in the world thinks the same way and that it would make more sense to try to understand why the person felt differently, see if there was a possible compromise and make a decision accordingly. Part of how this is handled depends on the previous relationship with the coach. If I'd been pleased with the instruction and the relationship with the kids previously instead of looking for a fight I would figure people are less than perfect and maybe we need to talk more and try to find a solution that works for all parties. We've had a lot of years working with lots of teachers and coaches and have seen great benefit from developing good relationships. I would start from the premise that the instructor cared about helping my child learn and see if we could find a way to get on the same page.

Oh and by the way, my favorite ethnic restaurant stopped having my favorite soup. Or more precisely they list the same soup but it tastes totally different now. When I asked about it the new owner basically suggested the old soup was totally not ethnically accurate and that she wasn't going to stoop to that level. Okie dokie, its her restaurant and stuff like that isn't worth crying over.

[midnightwriter]

Originally Posted by Roar

I would not find it appropriate to cry for 15 minutes about that and have it ruin the rest of the day. Instead I'd talk about how not everyone in the world thinks the same way and that it would make more sense to try to understand why the person felt differently, see if there was a possible compromise and make a decision accordingly. .

Those of us with sensitive children know that it is not an either or situation. It is not like we just "let" them cry for 15 min instead of talking to them.

I'd say all of the same things to my DD, and we can talk about compromises and what not, but this doesn't mean that she would not cry. There's nothing wrong with crying when one is upset. It is an expression of one's emotions. And since when 15 min of crying ruins the rest of the day?

I can't see how crying in itself is "appropriate" or "not appropriate." It is only relative to a situation. If we are in a movie theater, and DD starts crying loudly, it is not appropriate to cry THERE, as it disturbs others. Then we'd leave, and she'd cry in a private place, where it is entirely appropriate.

[WCM]

Originally Posted by Roar

When I asked about it the new owner basically suggested the old soup was totally not ethnically accurate and that she wasn't going to stoop to that level. Okie dokie, its her restaurant and stuff like that isn't worth crying over.

That's your opinion. And I too, as an adult, would not be too irked, or I could accept their POV, it's their restaurant.

But we are talking about kids, who are learning to roll with things like this. And the first part of being able to move on from such an upset, is being heard.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by Roar

Of course the coach/teacher should have a different relationship with you than a random waiter. A more analogous situation may be if you were attending a cooking class and you'd gotten used to hanging out after class painting with pudding but this time the teacher said that if you wanted to be more serious about developing your cooking skills another activity would be better and then you went and cried for 15 minutes about it.

No it's not. It's like you are attending cooking class and got used to hanging out painting with pudding after class in the public pudding painting area and your teacher approached you and said if you were going to do that rather than practice beating egg-whites you were going to have to wear the little-kid-who-can't-be-trusted-yet apron instead of the regular apron everyone else, cookery class patrons and general pudding-painting public alike, were wearing. As an adult that would irritate me pretty severely. As a kid it would have made me cry.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

No it's not. It's like you are attending cooking class and got used to hanging out painting with pudding after class in the public pudding painting area and your teacher approached you and said if you were going to do that rather than practice beating egg-whites you were going to have to wear the little-kid-who-can't-be-trusted-yet apron instead of the regular apron everyone else, cookery class patrons and general pudding-painting public alike, were wearing. As an adult that would irritate me pretty severely. As a kid it would have made me cry.

The teacher did not call the girls babies. He didn't insult them. He offered information about what is required. He said that the activity required helmets from this point forward. If the cooking class teacher wants to say plastic aprons are required for pudding painters from this point forward that would be fine with me too. Seriously, life has to be rough if you go around "seriously irritated" about every time something gets changed or doesn't go your way.