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school is *done* with my explosive child - Page 4

post #61 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by kavamamakava View Post
The school is to blame because they are not allowed to just give up and refuse to educate a child with special needs. Period. End of Story. It's illegal.
Even if he's violent?
post #62 of 97
If the child's violence is a symptom of a disability, the school has to educate that child even if they are violent.

Regardless of the cause of the violent behavior, a five-year-old cannot be permanently excluded from public education in the US. Children have due process rights to protect them from being denied access to education.

A child whose behavior is intractably and unmanageably violent should not be educated in a regular classroom, but that child cannot be deprived of an education. A five year-old exhibiting intractably and unmanageably violent behavior is almost definitely dealing with some form of disability.
post #63 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by A&A View Post
Even if he's violent?
Yes. If there is a special need/disability that presents with violent outbursts as a symptom, a public school is not legally permitted to refuse to educate such a child. It is illegal to not educate your child and it is illegal for public schools to prevent full access to public education to any child.
post #64 of 97
Also wanted to add that getting urine based lead testing can be helpful. We had no idea that we had lead solder in our fairly new house. Our son (who had some similarities to yours at that age) had high lead and mercury ('nother story). We got him cleaned out and it improved things a lot. (We also had to get a water filter system since we couldn't rip out all our pipes).
post #65 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by kavamamakava View Post
Yes. If there is a special need/disability that presents with violent outbursts as a symptom, a public school is not legally permitted to refuse to educate such a child..
They legally must provide an eduation for a child with a disability in the least restrictive environment possible. That can be an alternative placement in school solely for kids with behavoir issues, a private school at the district's expense, or a home tutor.

They are not required to keep a violent child, even one with a dx, in a regular classroom.

Public schools are not required to to provide an education to a violent child without a dx, which is one of the many reasons that refusing an appropriate dx is harmful to a child.
post #66 of 97
i just want to toss this place out to the OP: The Family Hope Center.

i have seen *miracles* coming out of the work of these neurologists. it's amazing work, and i truly believe in it.

worth a look at least.
post #67 of 97
If you want to push this the law is probably on your side.The boy who would hurt my ds in K was a *special* child. The school backed that child up far more than they did my own child.



If the school does not work with you consider another.Most schools are doing open enrollment these days due to the loss is student enrollment.

No one will support your child like you,so don't give up no matter what they say.
post #68 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
They legally must provide an eduation for a child with a disability in the least restrictive environment possible. That can be an alternative placement in school solely for kids with behavoir issues, a private school at the district's expense, or a home tutor.

They are not required to keep a violent child, even one with a dx, in a regular classroom.

Public schools are not required to to provide an education to a violent child without a dx, which is one of the many reasons that refusing an appropriate dx is harmful to a child.
The child in this situation is not being offered any education at all. He does have a diagnosis and a 504. He has a clearly documented disability. The child has a right to an education and the school is not legally allowed to just wash their hands of a student. They have dropped the ball and are hoping the family just figures out an alternative that doesn't involve public school. But that doesn't mean the child has no right to full access to a public education. Of course he may not end up being served in a mainstream classroom, but there are many other options and there's a huge maze of paperwork and IDEA regulations to wade through. The idea that if a 5 yr old child is violent a public school may refuse to educate is absolutely wrong. Of course there's fine print and details and a maze of guidelines, supports, and options, but the bottom line is that a public school is for ALL CHILDREN, not just the ones they can deal with.
post #69 of 97
I hope you can get things worked out for your son, it sounds like an exhausting process.
Just want to add to a few of the comments regarding food. My nephew was very much like this. He was literally bouncing off the walls and had explosive outbursts. Finally, after having him at my house and destroying a chair and exploding at me for asking him not to spit in the house, I called my sister and said I think we should look into doing an ADHD diet or something.
She said she was already on her way to the health food store because the day before was just the final thing that made her believe this could not be handled by endlessly trying different techniques to help him.
She had great luck to meet an employee there whose child was now a teenager and had been the same as my nephew when he was 4.
She advised her to immediately start supplementing with Magnesium and begin a diet with no processed foods, no dyes or sugar.

Just from the magnesium, the change was incredible. She started it right away and then he missed a day a couple weeks later and exploded that day just like he had been.
As she moved up in dose, he would stay on an even keel and then start slowly acting out and it was time to increase again. He had loose bowel movements when the dose went up and she kept it at that level until they returned to normal. The lady had given her a number to work up to, but to do it slowly and let his body gradually adjust.

She changed his diet that day. Only whole grains, with the first ingredient being whole wheat or whatever grain, not just whole grains as part of it.
No added sugar at all. Nothing with food dyes or artificial flavors etc...
It sounds restrictive but it really isn't once you look into the foods he can have.

She and his Dad are separated and for a long time he wasn't willing to follow the guidelines she gave him and would give him fruit punch or a cupcake or some kind of junk food on his visitation days. He would come home acting like before. Finally it was so obvious, even to him, that he stopped messing around and followed the diet.

Now it has been a year and my nephew still wants junk when we are at a party or something but he actually stops himself most of the time and says, no that isn't good for my body and will make me feel bad.
He really understands it and remembers how it was for him.

I'm sorry this is so long and not about the school. I just wanted to give you his experience because he sounds so similar.

I hope everything works out for you both, I know how difficult and helpless you can feel.

Take care,

Deb
post #70 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by kavamamakava View Post
The child in this situation is not being offered any education at all. He does have a diagnosis and a 504. He has a clearly documented disability.
there's not a clear correlation between his dx and his violent behavoir. A dx isn't a free pass.

The mom's post aren't completely clear, but she's seem relectant to get her child a dx that would explain his behavoir or to try things.


[QUOTE=janeisabelle;15423030]He does have a Behavior Intervention Plan, but I didn't sign it [/QUOTE

Quote:
Originally Posted by janeisabelle View Post
The school says they don't feel he is EI, and the volunteer advocate said not to push for it as it could be a stigma in the future when his behavior is better [if it is and I am working so hard toward that].

Quote:
Originally Posted by kavamamakava View Post
it is illegal for public schools to prevent full access to public education to any child.
that's not quite right. It's "least restrictive environement possible" not "full access."
post #71 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
In order for a child to have an IEP, they must be diagnosed with something that qualifies for an IEP, such as a medical diagnoses of autism. It's really a pretty short list of things that qualify.

This is part of the reason that refusing a label for child *which the child qualifies for* is a bad idea. Parents who refuse to allow their child to be labeled are turning down the IEP and money, and tieing the schools hands.

If you can't be honest with yourself, then there's not much the school can do to help your child.
As others have said, a diagnosis of ADHD will qualify the child for an IEP under the "Other Health Impairment" category. There are more services available of the child also has another area of disability but he would get services.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
They legally must provide an eduation for a child with a disability in the least restrictive environment possible. That can be an alternative placement in school solely for kids with behavoir issues, a private school at the district's expense, or a home tutor.

They are not required to keep a violent child, even one with a dx, in a regular classroom.

Public schools are not required to to provide an education to a violent child without a dx, which is one of the many reasons that refusing an appropriate dx is harmful to a child.
There are lots of things that the school can do that don't require suspension. My son isn't violent at all, but he does get over stimulated. The resource teacher sometimes works with him in his kindergarten classroom and sometimes she pulls him out. She used to take him right before it was time for him to get on the bus and do calming exercises. Then put him on the bus after the other children were seated. That simple change has made a HUGE difference in his bus riding experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattemma04 View Post
If you want to push this the law is probably on your side.The boy who would hurt my ds in K was a *special* child. The school backed that child up far more than they did my own child.



If the school does not work with you consider another.Most schools are doing open enrollment these days due to the loss is student enrollment.

No one will support your child like you,so don't give up no matter what they say.
I've never heard of open enrollment, so I'm assuming that "most" schools aren't doing that. I know they don't do it here and I'm willing to bet that "most" schools aren't accepting children with documented behavioral problems.


Why isn't the psychiatrist/psychologist attending the IEP meetings with you? He should be willing to do that since it's a common request. That would make a huge difference.
post #72 of 97
Right. There are a number of placement options that can (and are supposed to) be used for children with an IEP.

In order of Least Restrictive to Most Restrictive (per IDEA Law):

Quote:
General education classes:
Whenever appropriate, students with disabilities will be educated in the general education classes. In addition, whenever possible, they will attend the school they would ordinarily attend if they were not in special education.

General education classes with collaborative consultation:
In order for students with disabilities to be appropriately educated in general education classes it may be necessary for their teacher to consult with special education personnel to receive guidance and support.

General education classes with designated instruction and services:
Designated instruction and services assist students with disabilities to benefit from their general education program. Some examples of designated instructional services are language and speech services, adapted physical education, counseling and physical and occupational therapy.

General education classes and resource specialist program:
A resource specialist program provides instruction and services to students with disabilities assigned to the general education classroom for the majority of the school day. The goal of the resource specialist program is to enable students with disabilities to succeed in the general education environment. The program provides assistance in a variety of ways depending on the needs of a particular student.

General education and special day class:
Depending on their needs, students with disabilities may be educated in general education classes for part of the school day and special day classes for the other part of the school day.

Special day classes:
Special day classes serve students who, because of their disabilities, cannot participate in general education classes for a majority of the school day. These classes are provided on general education sites. As appropriate, students enrolled in special day classes interact with their general education peers through academic, non-academic and extracurricular activities.

Special schools/centers:
Students are enrolled in special schools/centers when it determined that the nature and severity of their disabilities require more intensive educational instruction. As appropriate, students enrolled in special schools interact with their general education peers through academic, non academic and extracurricular activities.

Non-public schools:
When no appropriate public education program is available, a student with disabilities may be placed in a non-public school under contract with the District.

Home or hospital:
Students with a verified medical or emotional condition that prevents them from attending school may receive services on a temporary basis in the home or a hospital.

State residential schools:
State residential schools provide comprehensive assessment and services for students with visual and/or hearing disabilities.
An IEP forces a school district to utilize these options, starting at number one and moving on down the line, until the entire team (which includes parents) finds the least restrictive option that works. A 504 plan does not require a district to consult with parents or to work down that list. (some will do it anyway, but others make you jump through hoops and red tape to get it in writing in an IEP - and it sounds like the OP's district decision makers need that documented requirement to move forward) That's why the fight for an IEP is worth it.
post #73 of 97
I second the suggestion to get another evaluation. I would call around and ask questions and explain your situation. When my ds was 4 and I volunteered for United Way they gave me lots of resources and opportunities to connect with people who were able to help me with my son. Another place that might point you in a direction is a children's hospital. Our hospital had a huge library and I never set foot in it because a student researched all the info I needed and sent me copies in the mail. We had an eval done at the hospital and it took about 2.5 hours.

You probably want to stay in the same school instead of moving him , but if you had him tested in another district then you might have better luck getting services.
post #74 of 97
OK - found the legal info regarding how a child on an IEP may be discipline versus how a child on a 504 may be disciplined --

Children with an IEP are protected by IDEA Law. Children on a 504 are not.

Quote:
Discipline http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/sec504.summ.rights.htm

The IDEA child (a child with an IEP) has the right to FAPE (Free Appropriate Education - meaning paid for by the school district), even if expelled from school.

If the Section 504 child misbehaves and the school decides the child's behavior is not a manifestation of the disability, the child can be expelled from school permanently.
Accepting a code of Other Health Impaired or Emotionally Handicapped or whatever applies best to your child is necessary to get on an IEP to get the protection offered by IDEA Law. (in my kids' cases they are coded with Autism because they are all on various parts of the PDD Spectrum) Otherwise the school is legally allowed to expel for violent behavior.
post #75 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polliwog View Post
I've never heard of open enrollment, so I'm assuming that "most" schools aren't doing that. I know they don't do it here and I'm willing to bet that "most" schools aren't accepting children with documented behavioral problems.
I hear it brought up here a lot; open enrollment allows you choose to go to any school in a designated area (district, town, etc.) My district is growing faster than it can build schools so enrollment is restricted; if you don't show up the first day of school you can loose your spot at that school and be sent to an "overflow school". However, in my area magnet schools are normally open enrollment within the district.
post #76 of 97
[QUOTE=Linda on the move;15437015]there's not a clear correlation between his dx and his violent behavoir. A dx isn't a free pass.

The mom's post aren't completely clear, but she's seem relectant to get her child a dx that would explain his behavoir or to try things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by janeisabelle View Post
He does have a Behavior Intervention Plan, but I didn't sign it [/QUOTE






that's not quite right. It's "least restrictive environement possible" not "full access."
Not sure why you're arguing with me *headscratch*
ALL children have a right to FAPE in the least restrictive environment. A public school system can't just spit out a child and forever bar that child from education. THIS child has a diagnosis and a 504. Clearly something isn't working and there needs to be a change in how the school addresses the issue so that the child can attend. Bottom line, a school can't just give up on such a child. What schools can, and often, do is act like there's nothing they can do so that the parent, with her back against the wall, digs through all the IDEA codes and state codes and finds out what her child needs that the school must, by law, provide, and then calls a meeting with the school and presents a case for what the child needs and how to provide it. The school provides it or comes to a middle ground. Or they end up in court in front of a judge if there is a disagreement. In the end, the judge either says the school must provide the services the parent is asking for or makes some other type of determination.
You can quibble semantics with me all you want and bring up invisible kids who are not the child discussed in this thread, but I really don't see the point. For those who do not parent children with special needs, they might be interested to know that a public school is not allowed to just wash their hands of a child and leave it up to the parent to home school or pay for private school. ALL CHILDREN IN THIS COUNTRY HAVE A RIGHT TO A PUBLIC EDUCATION.
post #77 of 97
Quote:
The child in this situation is not being offered any education at all.
How do you come up with this? He is on a 5 day suspension. Other than that he IS in school, in class full time. there is a possible full time suspension for the future, but nowhere did they say they were not going to be providing education for him still just that it won't be in the school.

Quote:
Clearly something isn't working and there needs to be a change in how the school addresses the issue so that the child can attend.
I agree with this. Something isn't working. The OP stated that her son has a 1-1 aid, but also said this aid works with the other kids in the class, so then that aid is NOT a 1-1 aid for her son.

What may be happening is that this school admin has never had a child like this & therefore has no idea what to do to help him. Special ed teachers are not always full of knowledge to help the children. The school has been trying stuff it just isn't working 100% of the time(and really, it won't work that often until that behaviour is completely gone).

Getting an IEP would help, but the OP needs to sign that behaviour plan. It'd give the teachers/admin more that they can do. She needs to stop listening to the volunteer person. IMO she needs to stop listening the psychologist, psychiatrist whoever that was.

She DOES need to sit down & say look we've tried, a-z & it isn't working. can we try 1-10 now. 1-10 should include a new evaluation, looking into spd9he may need sensory breaks so he doesn't get overwhelmed & violent), pulling her son out of class to a separate room to work, getting an IEP & a true 1-1 aid. If I was the OP I'd go back & see how often this violent behaviour was happening before & see if it has actually improved over the school year, gotten worse or stayed the same.

I would also really push for them to not do anything permanent for this school year which would have a max of 5 weeks left. Get through this year & try new in the fall. A new teacher, class, etc may make a difference in his behaviour.

Getting an IEP does not mean this kid's services will be funded. Here you need 2 diagnosis to get ANY funding and it often isn't enough. I work with a 8yo low functioning autistic boy who is at a 13month old level, some days he's barely at a 4month old level. He does not speak, has zero motivation to do anything, will eat anything he thinks resembles food(severe oral sensory issues) except fruits & veggies. He is only in his grade 3 class for gym & most days we leave that early. He cannot do anything that his class does eduation or physically wise. On top of that he had epilepsy. He CANNOT EVER be left alone, 5 feet away is sometimes too far. He does have an IEP, but is only funded half time. They(the OT, behaviour psychologist, & SLP) want him in the classroom more, but it does not benefit anyone.
post #78 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarrieMF View Post
How do you come up with this? He is on a 5 day suspension. Other than that he IS in school, in class full time. there is a possible full time suspension for the future, but nowhere did they say they were not going to be providing education for him still just that it won't be in the school.
I think that threatening a full time suspension is the same thing as not providing education. What else does it mean?
post #79 of 97
I would agree with you in many cases but in this case, the OP has refused to sign off on a behavior plan.
post #80 of 97
Quote:
He *is* physically attacking adults in the school about once a week.
Quote:
They talk about the safety of the teachers and other children and 'harm to himself and others'. He *is* melting down and hitting and kicking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by janeisabelle View Post
He does have a Behavior Intervention Plan, but I didn't sign it because the psychiatrist said not to because it isn't enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by janeisabelle View Post
Okay, I asked the volunteer if not signing the Behavior Plan was keeping them from implementing it and she said no and that I still shouldn't sign it...but I am suspecting that maybe I should sign it...Okay, reading the second post about it...I should sign it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by janeisabelle View Post
The school says they don't feel he is EI, and the volunteer advocate said not to push for it as it could be a stigma in the future when his behavior is better [if it is and I am working so hard toward that].
IMHO -- Unfortunately, I really think refusing to sign the behavior plan or accept a code is what tied staff's hands (as to not being able to help him as much as they can - because clearly some *do* want to per the OP) and what let the school district feel off the hook re: being responsible for providing a FAPE. (and I'd consult a lawyer b/c maybe they are now, which is scary) A behavior plan is technically a special education service and under IDEA Law--
Quote:
A public agency that is responsible for making FAPE available to a child with a disability must obtain informed consent from the parent of the child before the initial provision of special education and related services to the child.
[34 CFR 300.300(b)(1)] [20 U.S.C. 1414(a)(1)(D)(i)(II)]

If the parent of the child refuses to consent to the initial provision of special education and related services, or the parent fails to respond to a request to provide consent for the initial provision of special education and related services, the public agency:
• Will not be considered to be in violation of the requirement to make available a free appropriate public education (FAPE) to the child for the failure to provide the child with the special education and related services for which the public agency requests consent
; and
• Is not required to convene an IEP Team meeting or develop an IEP under 34 CFR 300.320 and 300.324 for the child for the special education and related services for which the public agency requests such consent.
[34 CFR 300.300(b)(4)] [20 U.S.C. 1414(a)(1)(D)(ii)(III)]
Even something as simple as removing a child to a different room to receive his education for a portion of the day when he's having a hard time requires red tape and paperwork. Removing from the regular classroom once a week or more means he is being removed from the 'least restrictive environment' (which as we all know is not always the *best* environment) and they need parental permission to do that. Behavior plans usually include an opportunity to 'cool down' away from classmates, allowing for removal from the LRE. They are also documented proof that you ARE working with the school (consenting) and supporting them in their efforts.

Sigh. Sadly, nothing logical and best is ever easy anymore.
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