Dad see's kids every weekend or 3 weekends/month? - Page 2

[mtiger]

Originally Posted by violet_

How an otherwise healthy 9-year-old with two skinny bio-parents can have a muffin-top over his jeans is truly beyond my comprehension.

It shouldn't be - if you realize that he is very likely about to have a growth spurt.

[violet_]

Originally Posted by mtiger

It shouldn't be - if you realize that he is very likely about to have a growth spurt.

Yes, he may be headed for a growth spurt, but the way he's slimming back down after just a couple weeks of healthy food and activity tells me he wasn't getting those before. He's not just a little pudgy, but rather overweight.

[aricha]

Oriole, you perfectly expressed exactly how I feel.

[Smithie]

"If you wouldn't call CPS on your neighbors provided they did the same level of parenting as this father, then you have no right limiting his parenting time. At least that's how I see things"

.... and I see that standard as abysmally low. Abysmally. The conditions that indicate a removal by social services to a foster placement are, and should be, very different from the conditions under which a sane judge would decide that one bioparent is better equipped to provide a primary home and to make schooling and medical decisions. These two sets of circumstances aren't even in the same universe, IMO.

It's funny how most men seem so very content with the traditional division of labor and child-related decision-making until they come to the point of divorce and realize that no, they won't be able to leave the home and take the kids with them. Not unless they get a judge who's all about "fairness" and thinks that "fairness" equates to a six-year-old living out of a suitcase because his parents couldn't get along.

[LittleBlessings]

Originally Posted by Oriole

I very much disagree with the whole attitude that fathers need to be allowed to parent. OP says "he is a good dad in a lot of ways". What more can you ask for? Of course you won't agree on everything, but should now her EX demand full custody because maybe he disagrees with how mom parents?

I cringe at the whole assumption that dads need to be kept in check when it comes to their children. Lets take a child away from a mother, and tell her she is allowed to see her kid EOW, and MAYBE once during the week, but lets also remind her not to get too comfortable, because we don't trust her to make the best choices regarding her child (as we choose to define "the best"). Lets make it clear, that if she steps out of line, we are "pulling the plug" on her visitations, and she can go fight the courts for it. Does that sound cruel to you when speaking of mothers? Well it sounds CRUEL to me when speaking of fathers.

We can't stand double standards when it comes to women's rights, then how come we tolerate them so easily when it comes to men's?

And if we are talking about the best interest of the child - then please give up seeing your kid for 25 days a month, and then tell me again, what is the best interest of the child here. Abuse and neglect cases aside, I firmly believe that the BEST interest of the child doesn't mean giving up seeing one parent. I also believe (being on the sides of both), that it takes a lot more effort to be a part of your child's life when you do not have custody during the week.

My advice to the OP: don't make it more difficult than it has to be. Talk to your ex, keep those communication lines flowing. Give him the room to be a parent to his own child. Best of luck to you!

[Ceinwen]

Originally Posted by Smithie

It's funny how most men seem so very content with the traditional division of labor and child-related decision-making until they come to the point of divorce and realize that no, they won't be able to leave the home and take the kids with them. Not unless they get a judge who's all about "fairness" and thinks that "fairness" equates to a six-year-old living out of a suitcase because his parents couldn't get along.

Absolutely.

So my ex (and let's be honest - a large portion of fathers) who saw/cared for their children maybe 14 hours a week - should suddenly be entitled to 50/50 access because of a divorce?

I do think fathers (in that scenario) need to earn the right to more access than EOW and need to prove they can adequately care for their children.

If you have someone who has a) never had their child alone more than 4 - 6 hours b) fed them maybe half a dozen times in their life and c) sees their role as a playmate - what should the standard be??

I work with a staff of say 90 women in the emergency dept. where I am, and at least 85% of us are f/t and continue to do the shopping, home making, child care, appointments, etc.

Some of them are going through horrid divorces where either they have left or their spouse has left - and the exhusband wants an equal split of parenting time. I really do believe they need to work up to it - it's been ten years since you took care of your kids? More than an hour a day?

You do earn it. And yes - if the shoe was on the other foot, and it was the father doing all the legwork/intensive parenting, and the mother was absent, then she needs to prove she can handle it too.

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by Ceinwen

Absolutely.

So my ex (and let's be honest - a large portion of fathers) who saw/cared for their children maybe 14 hours a week - should suddenly be entitled to 50/50 access because of a divorce?

He should not be entitled to anything because of divorce happening right here right now; he should be entitled to because he is one of the two parents. The child will miss not seeing his father for days on end. That's just what happens. When dsd's parents divorced, and her dad was not allowed to see her, dsd started losing weight at the age of 3. The whole world exploded: pediatrician was called, dp was allowed to pick up dsd whenever, he spent a week with her, and the child started gaining weight again.

My question is WHY does it have to be that drastic for adults to start realizing that fathers are missed by their children? And what happens to a child who suffers and misses their parent those 25 days a month but never shows physical signs as drastic as the ones described here? Do we just tell all those children to suck it up? Get over it? since their dad worked to provide for their family all these years, instead of being stay at home parent - now he is not good enough to see them?

I do think fathers (in that scenario) need to earn the right to more access than EOW and need to prove they can adequately care for their children.

You think fathers' hearts don't break when their children taken away? I find it inhumane to do to any parent. Don't you ever hear people calling their fathers heroes because they worked long hours and thankless jobs to provide for their families? Even those fathers who, by current standards, did "nothing" with their children in the 60s?

Two parents can successfully carry two different roles in a marriage, and it doesn't make one parent less valuable to the child than the other. It also doesn't give the right to one parent to dictate the conditions on to another parent.

If you have someone who has a) never had their child alone more than 4 - 6 hours b) fed them maybe half a dozen times in their life and c) sees their role as a playmate - what should the standard be??

Here is what I think. That's a thin ice we are walking on. I personally think that DSD's mom has resigned being a parent and wants only to be a playmate. But I will NEVER tell her that she should not see her daughter. She is always welcome to. I don't like the way she parents, but she is her mother, and as always, abuse cases aside, a mother deserves to parent her child. So does the father.

What if someone declares your parenting is too strict? too lenient? too playful? too <insert any damaging label> to the child by whatever their definition is? Do you want to be in the position to defend your parenting? If not, then it's not fair to put dads into that position. If you are concerned about abuse - that's different, but obviously a parent is expected to feed the child when the child is at their house.

I work with a staff of say 90 women in the emergency dept. where I am, and at least 85% of us are f/t and continue to do the shopping, home making, child care, appointments, etc.

I am not sure about the point you are trying to make here. Are you suggesting that you know the lives of 90 women very well and that you are sure that 85% of them have husbands that are all undeserving dads because moms do everything?

I'll be super honest with you, while I heard of situations where everything hangs on one spouse, and I don't doubt that those cases exist, I have never not even once in my life have met a family where a woman truly did everything and a man did nothing. There is only one man that I am quite certain should not have had access to his children, and he was abusive.

Some of them are going through horrid divorces where either they have left or their spouse has left - and the exhusband wants an equal split of parenting time. I really do believe they need to work up to it - it's been ten years since you took care of your kids? More than an hour a day?

I think if a father wants equal parenting time that's something to be happy about. Children deserve dads who want to be in their lives. I find it an excellent sign that even despite more often than not carrying the financial weight of providing for a family and a lot of prejudice against fathers' ability to parent, they are still speaking up and fighting to have a meaningful relationship with their child that goes beyond 2 weekends a month. It's good news for our sons as future fathers. It's great news to all the children whose dad actually misses them and loves them.

You do earn it. And yes - if the shoe was on the other foot, and it was the father doing all the legwork/intensive parenting, and the mother was absent, then she needs to prove she can handle it too.

I am not talking about absent parents.

[Kindermama]

I would do 50/50. He will learn to take on the responsibility and I think it's GREAT that he wants to! Give him a chance. Give him space. They are not all yours. He deserves them and they deserve him!

[Ceinwen]

Originally Posted by Oriole

He should not be entitled to anything because of divorce happening right here right now; he should be entitled to because he is one of the two parents. The child will miss not seeing his father for days on end. That's just what happens. When dsd's parents divorced, and her dad was not allowed to see her, dsd started losing weight at the age of 3. The whole world exploded: pediatrician was called, dp was allowed to pick up dsd whenever, he spent a week with her, and the child started gaining weight again.

My question is WHY does it have to be that drastic for adults to start realizing that fathers are missed by their children? And what happens to a child who suffers and misses their parent those 25 days a month but never shows physical signs as drastic as the ones described here? Do we just tell all those children to suck it up? Get over it? since their dad worked to provide for their family all these years, instead of being stay at home parent - now he is not good enough to see them?



You think fathers' hearts don't break when their children taken away? I find it inhumane to do to any parent. Don't you ever hear people calling their fathers heroes because they worked long hours and thankless jobs to provide for their families? Even those fathers who, by current standards, did "nothing" with their children in the 60s?

Two parents can successfully carry two different roles in a marriage, and it doesn't make one parent less valuable to the child than the other. It also doesn't give the right to one parent to dictate the conditions on to another parent.



Here is what I think. That's a thin ice we are walking on. I personally think that DSD's mom has resigned being a parent and wants only to be a playmate. But I will NEVER tell her that she should not see her daughter. She is always welcome to. I don't like the way she parents, but she is her mother, and as always, abuse cases aside, a mother deserves to parent her child. So does the father.

What if someone declares your parenting is too strict? too lenient? too playful? too <insert any damaging label> to the child by whatever their definition is? Do you want to be in the position to defend your parenting? If not, then it's not fair to put dads into that position. If you are concerned about abuse - that's different, but obviously a parent is expected to feed the child when the child is at their house.



I am not sure about the point you are trying to make here. Are you suggesting that you know the lives of 90 women very well and that you are sure that 85% of them have husbands that are all undeserving dads because moms do everything?

I'll be super honest with you, while I heard of situations where everything hangs on one spouse, and I don't doubt that those cases exist, I have never not even once in my life have met a family where a woman truly did everything and a man did nothing. There is only one man that I am quite certain should not have had access to his children, and he was abusive.



I think if a father wants equal parenting time that's something to be happy about. Children deserve dads who want to be in their lives. I find it an excellent sign that even despite more often than not carrying the financial weight of providing for a family and a lot of prejudice against fathers' ability to parent, they are still speaking up and fighting to have a meaningful relationship with their child that goes beyond 2 weekends a month. It's good news for our sons as future fathers. It's great news to all the children whose dad actually misses them and loves them.



I am not talking about absent parents.

IME (so this is anecdotal) that not all children suffer as drastically as losing weight and FTT. Also, I don't doubt that they miss their father - but if they weren't really present, how much are they missing them?

50/50 would be disastrous for my children. They don't miss their father at all. He wasn't very present when he lived with them (beyond an hour of play before dinner) and the fact that they see him EOW is routine for them.

My 7 year old very much wears her heart on her sleeve, if there was an issue, we'd be well aware of it by now.

Do you really think that the one or two hours a day they saw a playmate father, makes up for the week on/week off of missing their mothers - who up until now were the primary caregiver? I don't believe that for a second.

Also, we obviously know different people because I know many, many, many where the husband does minimal to nothing re: child rearing, and the working mother does it all.

If we're using anecdotal info (re: your stepdaughter) I can only say that every shared custody agreement I've personally seen has been horrible for the children.

I work long hours at a thankless job - and take care of my children. W/O help from pretty much anyone.

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by Ceinwen

Do you really think that the one or two hours a day they saw a playmate father, makes up for the week on/week off of missing their mothers - who up until now were the primary caregiver? I don't believe that for a second.

I think our experiences color the response we give, which is natural, and not that bad, as it provides for different perspective on the issue.
You are right, it might not be always so drastic as to children losing weight, but I am also right in saying that it is also not so drastic as a child not caring about not seeing their dad for 2 weeks at a time. I don't know if OP's husband and child relationship fall into either of the extremes, as all I know about her life is summarized in three paragraphs of a single post.

However, I do know that most children miss both their parents. An average child from an average family will miss their dad (or mom) if they are put in the position of not seeing a parent for 25 days a month (regardless of who is the primary caregiver). Every single family that I can think of, "broken" or intact, has two parents that love their children. Our parenting styles might not resonate, but I can recognize that children value their relationship with each parent regardless of my personal standards on good parenting.

Routine is something that is repeated time after time, and is predictable. There are way more choices than 2 weekends a month when it comes to creating routines. I have not seen many parenting agreements on paper, but I do know a few families that have divorced. All the ones that are close to me, started out with EOW arrangements. All of them had parents that worked out something more flexible in reality than what the rigid and limiting 4 days a month offered, and that's what I'm trying to say - 2 weekends is unworkable in most situation. I don't know what is workable for the OP, I guess that's for her and her ex to decide, but I don't know one family that stuck to EOW, around here, and it made for way happier kids, and I wish parents figured this out sooner, vs. dragging it out for years, kwim?

When DP's brother divorced (about 5 years ago), his daughter wrote him such a sad letter about a month after he moved out. It would break your heart if you read it. DP's brother is a typical dad, nothing unusual in the way he interacts with his kids, or in the way he behaved with his ex. He does not stand out in a great way or a bad way. He worked long hours and was not a primary caregiver, yet his kids missed him tremendously when he moved out. When in college, I worked with a psychologist who said she interviewed children of divorced parents about "the day daddy left home",and it was described as a super significant and sad event for them. All I'm trying to say here is that we should be careful not to underestimate the roles that fathers play, imho.

[aricha]

My husband is a stay-at-home dad and has been since his oldest (my step-daughter) was a baby. I used to work 50-60 hours a week. There were days that I only saw our kids an hour or so in the morning, and they were in bed by the time I got home. I had to work many weekends. When I was home, I played with my kids and did fun stuff with them. My husband kept the house, did the shopping, made the appointments, applied bandaids, established the daily routines, kept track of current likes and dislikes. He saw first steps and heard first words.

Then we moved and my husband was able to find a job before I did, and because we needed money to survive, he took it and I became a stay-at-home parent for the first time ever. I was ill-equipped to be the one responsible for three young children 24/7. I had never packed a diaper bag, didn't know what the kids' normal routine was, and had never managed three children alone for more than a couple hours. I didn't know how to put the toddler down for a nap, that my kids were used to a morning snack between breakfast and lunch, or how to get the 2 1/2 year old to use the potty successfully.

So what did I do? I did what any other parent would do in that situation... I learned fast. I figured it out. I made mistakes, I didn't do things right, and I certainly didn't measure up to my husband's expertise. I asked him for help when I didn't know something, or I made it up, or I learned from my mistakes.

Now I am back at work and my husband is back at home. He is still much better at it than I am. But I am a competent parent, and I can juggle the responsibilities and do a passable job of it when I need to. My routine is still different than his, and the caregiving is far different... when he goes out of town they watch more TV and we eat a lot of scrambled eggs or mac n cheese. They go to bed later and the rules are a little looser. Sometimes we forget to brush their teeth. But I am not a bad parent, and my children aren't suffering because my caregiving is different (probably worse) than his. Just because I spend less time with them doesn't mean I don't deserve to parent them as much as he does. Just because I earn more than he could or enjoy my job, my kids don't love or need me in their life any less.

[Ceinwen]

Originally Posted by Oriole

I think our experiences color the response we give, which is natural, and not that bad, as it provides for different perspective on the issue.
You are right, it might not be always so drastic as to children losing weight, but I am also right in saying that it is also not so drastic as a child not caring about not seeing their dad for 2 weeks at a time. I don't know if OP's husband and child relationship fall into either of the extremes, as all I know about her life is summarized in three paragraphs of a single post.

You are right. I absolutely agree that there is definitely a middle ground where they miss the parent who is not present.

I tend to come out swinging hard on this issue, because my ex wasn't a very involved parent (per his choice) and started making noise about wanting shared custody months after we split, when I had been doing the lion's share of the child care for well over seven years. He quickly drew back when he realized that by the end of EOW he was exhausted and had difficulty keeping up to the demands of our two busy girls.

There are so many points of your post that I agree with. I actually hope that there are more families that can have a greater range of flexibility with regard to sharing time spent with their children; my situation is such that this would not (now? ever?) be possible. Part of that makes me angry, and part makes me relieved (that would be the mild controlling half of my personality that likes to micro manage )

I hope to god that if my ex ever meets someone and settles down to start a new family (is it new? I believe that second family isn't considered very nice?) that my children's stepmother is half as insightful and caring as some of the women on this forum. I continue to learn a lot about the dynamics from the other side of the issue, and while it can get heated, it's certainly appreciated.

[Kristine233]

Oriole, I totally agree with you.

Besides, how would a father "prove himself" if he isn't allowed enough time to take on the tasks the mom is convinced he can't handle?

I've known several couples who split and even though mom was the full time caregiver while they were together, dad was a FAR better parent and ended up getting full and 50/50 custody. (2 separate cases) Actually the 50/50 dad is a pro-breastfeeding, babywearing, co-sleeping dad, (opposite of mom in every way) who had to FIGHT for his rights simply because he was male and had been the full time wage earner in the relationship. IMO, that is totally unfair. He now has to jump through hoops to see his child, whom he'd like to fulltime parent. He can't work now because of an accident that pretty much stuck him on permanent disability, yet he can't parent as much as he would like because of the court decisions. Child goes to daycare instead of being with dad during that time who would love nothing more than SAHP. Out of spite and 'control' the mom wont work with him (she actually fled the state with the child at one point and he was granted full temp custody for a short time. It was then that he "earned" his 50/50). Had the sexes been reversed people would be throwing huge fits.

I just feel badly for the dad's who are not allowed much time with their kids. Even my husband and I don't parent the same, we definitely don't always agree. Yet, if we got a divorce I would never demand more than 50/50 because I think the kids deserve to have a dad that is very much involved in their lives on a day to day basis.

[pinksprklybarefoot]

Oriole,

[MissMarieM]

I am going through a divorce and sat in mediation today.  My ex recently retired from the military.  This past year while deployed, he had an affair in a combat zone. He was abusive and an alcoholic.  So, when he wanted three weekends a month and five weeks in the summer without the kids getting to see me, I said NO!  I was forced to live where we do because of his military career, not by my choice.  My family is three hours away, but his is barely an hour from here.   I want to be able to move closer to my family, but he is blocking it.   He has serious anger issues and has openly admitted to his adultery and his depression.  Now, I am in for the fight of my kids' life.  They do not want to spend most of their weekends with him because they will not get to see much of my family, whom they are very close to.

I have worked full time for years.  Still, I did the majority of the child-rearing responsibilities while he came home, demanded dinner, yelled at the kids to be quiet while he watched the news, then proceeded to get drunk and verbally abusive. 

Now, he is acting like he is the victim because I finally had enough and filed for divorce.  He was extremely selfish throughout the marriage and now he wants to be the "Disneyland Dad" and the fun one while I am the one who will be doing the bulk of the child raising.  This is still very selfish, considering he went several years without seeing his first two children (that are now in their 20s and want alomost nothing to do with him.)

When looking at the quality of time spent with the kids, six days a month of "fun" time, versus maybe one hour a night (after homework, dinner, chores, showers, activities, et cetera) doesn't measure up, especially when the parents and the children are exhausted from the busy day. 

How can I take my kids to a museum after school when they close at 5PM?  Or the zoo?  Or to a parade? Or to go shopping at the mall? Or to go fish?  My one weekend a month doesn't cut it.  Not only that, but when the children have been raised to go to church on Sundays, but now that they are with their dad, they won't be?  How right is that for them?  I believe the EOW is the way to go, along with some time in the summer for the OP to have a couple of weeks to take a trip or plan something special.  

[Smithie]

Hi MissMarieM 

I am sorry to hear about your divorce, but glad that you are getting out of a relationship with a man who wasn't good to you.

I'm very glad you've bumped this thread, because it gave me a chance to see what I had written on the topic two years back, and to reflect on how much my perspective has changed due to some IRL experiences.

Divorce is about change. It's a huge, fundamental change in the relationship between two people and their relationship with their children. The bad old days of "he doesn't parent, I do all the heavy lifting, he just plops them in front of the TV" can be OVER now. He will wash their clothes and provide their meals and brush their teeth more than he ever did before. The hard work of parenting can and will be more evenly shared if you allow that to happen. 

Your ex has been deployed. You've been raising these kids completely solo for huge chunks of time. It's reasonable to want to be the primary custodial parent during the school year and to move closer to your support system. But he's retired now, and if he wants to step up and parent at this point in this life, well, better late than never. Make a deal with you ex that allows you to live close by your family. Give him EOW and drive halfway (since you're the one who wants the move) and give him the WHOLE SUMMER with the understanding that your kids will not be barred from attending camps, etc. as they get older. Let him take them to Disneyland. Let him do whatevertheheck. Use the time when you're not the custodial parent to develop your own interests. Travel. Date. Sleep in. 

I'm sure he's not perfect, but the's their dad. Even if you marry again (and I hope you will!), he'll still be their dad. Let him find a way to be the best Dad he can be.