Help me help my partner

[craft_media_hero]

I have posted on here before much earlier in my pregnancy for support, and here I am again, 8 weeks til my due date!

I'm sorry if this is disjointed--I don't really know how to phrase myself but know that I need a little help here.

We don't know if we're having a boy or girl. A couple of nights ago, I brought up circ w/ my partner (again, gently, as I have throughout the pg), broaching the subject by mentioning how my baby nephew is over-circed and now has a "hidden" penis and how my sis and her hub have been fighting over it (he blames his son looking tiny on her genes ) when it was really unecessary and caused by the circumcision. I just brought it up because we're getting close, and I want us both to be in agreement.

Okay. So this opens up the convo, and I'm really startled by how emotional my partner is getting---he has been pretty mild about it every other time we've talked. He's circ'ed btw and we both are very content with his genitalia, tho I still wish he was intact for lots of reasons.

He is upset and saying how he's not going to be able to relate to his son on such a basic level as how to go to the bathroom, how to keep it clean, how to shake it, etc. because HE DOESN'T HAVE A FORESKIN. All I could do was say, I'm sorry, I wish that you had been protected from this; you'll still be able to learn how to teach your son to care for himself and go to the bathroom; he's repeating nonsense about how you have to clean it (you don't, right? just wipe straight down if poo gets on it? then when the boy naturally retracts, he can just retract and clean when bathing? you don't have to pull it back to shake it?); he's saying YOU CAN'T KNOW BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE A PENIS AND I WON'T KNOW BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A FORESKIN . . . the whole conversation just really shook me up a lot.

He said he's not going to circ his kid. He was upset because it seemed like I was "putting my foot down"---I told him it's probly the only thing I would take an absolute stance on but that I didn't want that to be the reason WE as partners chose to keep our babe intact, that I want him to have peace about it and for us to make the decision together. How do I help him get peace about this?

He was getting all choked up and admitting how a lot of his emotions over it are questioning WHY DID THIS HAPPEN TO ME--OH YEAH COZ MY DAD'S CIRCED, MY PARENTS NEVER QUESTIONED ANYTHING OR PROTECTED ME etc. And tho he didn't say it, I think a bit of penis envy for his unborn? I said how we can't continue to perpetrate the mistakes of the generations before us and how it is hard to be a parent these days because we have to make so many decisions differently and question everything and forge out on our own. He agrees, he knows this, but it's intellectual knowledge---he is talking from his emotions here, not his brain, kwim?

I brought up that there are lots of circed dads who are activists and believe in keeping their sons intact, he's like YEAH YEAH, I CAN TALK TO MY (intact) BUDDY (who is not a dad), and I'm just like, he can tell you about caring for an intact penis, but he can't help you get to a place where you accept that your son's genitals will be different than yours. And he's going on about how his family will freak (I don't care) and disapprove.

I don't know . . . we're not going to circ our possible son. But I fear that there may be an issue because dp's angry about his circ? Or his parents? And if our boy has any infections or "ballooning" or whatever, I think he'll be like (even if he doesn't say it) 'I told you so' or we shoulda got him circed or blame me for "putting my foot down" etc.

By the end of this whole thing I was saying, all you can do is educate yourself and he's agreeing maybe he should watch a circ video (EEK!) and that any of our fears can be overcome through knowledge. So he's totally "there" intellectually, but it's his emotions that don't agree here.

Help! Sorry I know this is rambling. I don't have anyone to talk to about this IRL.

I would appreciate any insight or referrals to support resources for myself and my partner.

Thanks in advance!

-Jes

[philomom]

I loved my husband all the more because he was brave enough to let his son remain intact. There have been no issues. Okay, his family freaked a bit. But as a SAHM, my hubby did very little of the toilet training and bathing anyways. You just leave it alone and wait until the child himself shows you "hey, it slides". We have had no problems. None. Our son is 14 now. I moved from a high circ area of the country(Atlanta) to a low circ area of the country (Portland, Or). I do know that many of my son's friends are intact. He won't ever be the oddball here.

[Otterella]

Have you discussed restoration with him? It sounds like this is a good opening. Even though you say you're both happy with things as they are, learning more about what it might be like to regrow a foreskin might help him understand more about taking care of his intact son, even if he doesn't decide to do it for himself.

[Storm Bride]

I realize these are all emotional arguments, but the "you can't know because you don't have a penis" thing about your potential son looking after his own penis is very strange. How many boys have been raised by single moms? Lots. How many of those women do you think went to their dads or brothers and said, "how do you clean your penis?". I'm guessing not very many, yk?

I did almost all the child care of ds1 even when I was with my ex. We split up when ds1 was 7. DH moved in when ds1 was 8. My ex and dh are both circ'd. DS1 is intact. There has never been an issue of any kind with anyone needing to be able to tell ds1 something about his penis, and not being able to do so. It just hasn't happened.

And, yes - you just wipe it like a finger. Cleaning a boy's diaper area is actually easier than cleaning a girl's diaper area, imo (I've got two of each). Dried poop on the scrotum, in the case of a dirty diaper that wasn't changed promptly for whatever reason, is the worst part. The penis is a non-issue.

[Oliver'sMom]

hugs to you and your husband.

To me he doesn't sound like he's against keeping your possible son intact, but more that he's mourning the loss of his foreskin and trying to deal with all of the emotions that go with that. This is a very sensitive and emotional subject. I can't imagine how hurt, confused and angry I'd feel if my parents had circumcised me. For a guy to admit that he's missing anything in the genital department is huge.

My husband reacted the exact same way as yours when I brought up circumcision. Intellectually, he knew it was wrong, but emotionally it was very hard for him because he had to admit to himself that something very important was taken away from him, by his parents, and without his consent. He also felt that by keeping his son intact, he was admitting that something was wrong with him. We talked about it a lot, and cried too. Finally, I mentioned to him "if you want our son to look like you, how about trying to restore?" This had never even occured to him! He felt completely empowered by this. He started restoring right after our son was born and three years later, he's completely restored now. I really feel like while he was restoring his foreskin, he was restoring his manhood too. He's a much more confident and calmer person all around. I'm so proud of him!

My advice would be to just give your husband your support and his space if he needs it. He knows that you won't consent to circ, and I don't think he would either. He just has to come to terms with what happened to him. I'd also try mentioning restoration very gently. I took the "it makes sex way better" approach (which it does!!) Worked for me!

ETA: He used the TLC tugger...great product!

[mama24-7]

your partner is lucky to have you.

here's the article i always rec for women to help them understand the dad's feelings: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

good luck!
sus

[Galatea]

He's in the midst of mourning his own circumcision and working through strong feelings. Since he agreed not to do it, I would just give him time and space and let him work it out on his own. We cannot do another person's emotional work for them.

[Carlyle]

Originally Posted by Oliver'sMom

To me he doesn't sound like he's against keeping your possible son intact, but more that he's mourning the loss of his foreskin and trying to deal with all of the emotions that go with that.

...

Trying to restore?" This had never even occured to him! He felt completely empowered by this. He started restoring right after our son was born and three years later, he's completely restored now. I really feel like while he was restoring his foreskin, he was restoring his manhood too. He's a much more confident and calmer person all around. I'm so proud of him!

I totally agree with this--it sounds like he needs to talk with you about how he's feeling about HIS foreskin...not your son's. I was going to recommend suggesting restoration (if he's really upset about his own loss), acknowledging that his parents probably made the best decision at the time--and maybe they weren't even given the choice, many parents weren't when we were kids just because it was so common, and I was also going to recommend the article mentioned in the post below. It's really good.

Originally Posted by mama24-7

here's the article i always rec for women to help them understand the dad's feelings: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

good luck!
sus

I hope your dh feels better about your family's decision soon. I hope that if he learns about restoration that it can help him feel more in control of the decisions that were made about his body...it sounds like that is one of the biggest issues for him. He really doesn't sound upset about keeping your son intact, he sounds really sad about his own circ, and he's getting this sadness confused with the discussion about your son. Here is one link to a restoration site (there are lots more sites and I'm not experienced first hand, so I'm not sure whether this is the best one): http://www.norm.org/

[Carlyle]

Originally Posted by craft_media_hero

He was getting all choked up and admitting how a lot of his emotions over it are questioning WHY DID THIS HAPPEN TO ME--OH YEAH COZ MY DAD'S CIRCED, MY PARENTS NEVER QUESTIONED ANYTHING OR PROTECTED ME etc. And tho he didn't say it, I think a bit of penis envy for his unborn? I said how we can't continue to perpetrate the mistakes of the generations before us and how it is hard to be a parent these days because we have to make so many decisions differently and question everything and forge out on our own. He agrees, he knows this, but it's intellectual knowledge---he is talking from his emotions here, not his brain, kwim?

That's a great opening right there...tell him you've been thinking about how he said a lot of his emotions are about feeling like his parents didn't protect him. Tell him it seems like he's comfortable with not circing your son, and that he doesn't want to do what his parents did, but that you want to help him find peace with his own body. And how much you love him the way he is. And what a great lover his is. Etc. And if he's still upset, that restoration is an option. Good luck!

[craft_media_hero]

Wow, thank you all so much for the replies. This board is such a great, supportive resource!

We haven't talked about it yet since that conversation happened. I am going to let him know that he can restore his foreskin if he wants to do so---when the time is right to bring it up.

I'm really grateful that he's willing to leave our son intact even though he's not an "intactivist", and yes, you all are right that this is pretty much about him and his emotions and anger at his parents/society and all of that.

I might link him to some pages that are informative about circumcision--it's hard though because so many are really radical, and I think that might turn him off from really digging into the facts, kwim? Any ideas for more "academic" or less radical anti-circ websites? I am totally okay w/ the radical stuff, but he is pretty sensitive

Thanks for all of the support and links so far!

[A&A]

Originally Posted by craft_media_hero

We haven't talked about it yet since that conversation happened. I am going to let him know that he can restore his foreskin if he wants to do so---when the time is right to bring it up.

My dh is happy we left our son intact but has zero interest in restoring himself. Be prepared for that possibility, too.

[PuppyFluffer]

the drmomma blog is wonderful. It's Peaceful Parenting. Here's the link:
http://www.drmomma.org/

Much gentle and loving advice and information on a lot of stuff, including circumcision.

[craft_media_hero]

Originally Posted by A&A

My dh is happy we left our son intact but has zero interest in restoring himself. Be prepared for that possibility, too.

Yeah, that's totally okay with me. I just want him to know that he does have control over whether he has a foreskin or not. I don't think he will go for restoration; he is not big on any form of body modification--no tats or piercings, etc., and no real interest in them. So I think he is content to keep it the way it is, but it could be empowering for him to know that other men have successfully restored their foreskin.

Again, thank you all so much for making this board such a supportive place. It's wonderful to have somewhere to sound off about these issues online since like I said I don't really have any one to talk to about circ issues IRL.

[PuppyFluffer]

If he is not into body modification, be prepared for him to possibly want to restore in an effort to reclaim his natural body.

I know several men who have restored and who have a much different sense of themselves afterward - in a positive way. I had one guy say "I have a lot more empathy since I've restored" and I thought that was a really interesting observation.

This forum does not focus on restoration but there are several places on the web that you can find suppport and advice. NORM, the National Organization of Restoring Men is a place to start possibly.

[NettleTea]

Originally Posted by craft_media_hero

Any ideas for more "academic" or less radical anti-circ websites?

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/

http://www.icgi.org/

http://www.nocirc.org/

http://www.studentsforgenitalintegrity.org/

[WaitingForKiddos]

I'm due in 8 weeks too!! Loving these July babies!!

We knew we were having a boy early on...around 17 weeks. In the car on the way home from the u/s dh says 'we'll need to decide if he'll be cut'. We had a VERY casual conversation about it...maybe 3 sentences, and left it alone. I already knew that this baby would be left intact. However dh had brought up circ early on when we were dating (right after watching Penn & Teller BS about circ) and said 'my son WILL be circumcised'. That was long before we got pregnant.

Anyway, so I left the subject alone. At about 26 weeks I brought it up and said that we'll need to decide what we were going to do because we are birthing out of a hospital so arrangments would need to be made. Through talking a bit I saw that dh didn't know it was done so soon. He thought it was done months after baby was born and had the skills of living out of the womb down. We agreed that baby should be left alone for a good amount of time...no vax, no circ, no drs. A few weeks after that dh brought it up and said that he was feeling like baby should be left uncut. He asked me what I thought, if I was okay with it. I was. Dh added that he thought that the baby's penis would 'be bigger and bot feel uncomfortably tight when erect'. So this baby is going to be left intact.

I have found that some things seemed to make the conversations go smoothly...though it seems a little offensive to sone folks here on mdc/cac..

- dont use the term intact to your circed Dh. Leave the realization of Dh not being whole out of the topic. It just makes an emotional issue more emotional. It adds a need for a circed Dh to be defensive. I'm pretty sure at some point I made sure to tell Dh that I'm happy with his penis. And I am. It makes me sad to think of him being circed but there's no need to bring that up.

- don't insist on the answer being 'we are leaving baby intact'. The answer of 'we are going to wait for a few months to decide' is fine.

- let Dh call an intact penis uncut.

- don't start off with your bottom line out loud. If you're really going to verbalized 'this baby won't be circed no matter what' then why pretend you're going to have a conversation. You don't have to be open to circ, but if you want dh to share and be open you have to be open to letting him process it in his time.

[WaitingForKiddos]

And to add... I started to present links to dh and just the site names turned him off. Way too biased.

Personally I can agree with his opinion. If I want to know if say homebirths are dangerous there's no way Id be looking at 'stophomebirth.org' or 'drsagainstmidwives.org'. Just be aware of how the information is presented.

[Otterella]

I agree that if he is not into body modification, he may be MORE likely to consider restoration, not LESS. Remember, *circumcision* is the modification, restoration is just returning the body as close to it's unmodified form as possible. My husband was a lot like yours in his attitude at first. He started restoration because he wanted me to be happy, but it didn't take very long before he started seeing some major differences in his own sexual sensation that excited him. Now he's keeping it going for himself as well as for me.

It just takes time for a man to accept that what was done to them is not right. Nobody likes to feel inadequate, especially sexually, and for a circumcised man, admitting that circumcision is wrong is admitting that there is something inadequate about his penis. It's not easy to come to terms with, but when he does, a really wonderful thing happens. So I say just take what he's given you for now, and he'll come around in time.

[zinemama]

OP, I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that after this child is born (boy or girl), the two of you will be so overwhelmed by new parenthood and all the work and sleep deprivation and emotional adjustment that entails, that this entire topic will be either forgotten or pushed so far to the back burner that it appears very insignificant. By the time your dh emerges from the fog of new fatherhood, his his son being intact will seem entirely normal and unremarkable.

[K703]

Originally Posted by WaitingForKiddos

If I want to know if say homebirths are dangerous there's no way Id be looking at 'stophomebirth.org' or 'drsagainstmidwives.org'.

Neither of those sites appear to be real (I got messages on both of them saying that the page cannot be found when I tried to go to them).