Christian concepts not in Judaism - Jewish moms, please help me here

[christianmomof3]

I was raised in the Reform Jewish religion and am now a born again Christian.
In general, the Christian religion sees itself as an offshoot of or fulfillment of or related to the Jewish religion.
I get that.
However, there are some fundamental concepts in Christianity that to me seem totally foreign to the Jewish religion.
Perhaps it is just because I did not get a really good Jewish education even though it was the culture that I was raised in.
So, I was wondering if the Jewish moms here or others who are knowledgeable about the Jewish concepts could help me out.
I have looked for these things in the Old Testament and in what I know about the Jewish religion and have not found them.
If I ask Christians, they don't really seem to understand how foreign those concepts seem to the Jewish religion. It is something I have been struggling with and wondered if I could get some other people's input on.
Thanks.
Here are some of the concepts I don't see in Judaism:

1. Salvation as understood in Christianity.
Christians feel that we are sinners and have a sinful nature in us and we need to be saved from our sins and sinful nature.
There are verses in the NT that indicate that we need to be "saved" from sin, sins, the self and the world.
But when we look in the Old Testament, God's salvation seems to usually, but not always, refer to being saved out of specific situations such as wars or captivity.

Is there any Jewish concept of "salvation" that is in any way similar to the Christian concept?

2. An afterlife. This is a huge thing in the Christian religion. Whether the concept is that you go to heaven or hell or that you become a part of the New Jerusalem, there is a definite belief in an afterlife and it is a very important part of Christianity. It is a driving force or goal to be saved or do good works in order to escape a bad afterlife. It is a reward that all Christians strive for in one way or another.

I never knew anything about any afterlife concept at all when I was Jewish. I have read online that some Jews do believe in some sort of afterlife, but it does not seem to be any sort of reward or punishment type thing - it is just for all Jews. Is the afterlife concept found throughout the Jewish religion and I just somehow missed it? I just thought when you die you are dead and it is over and that is it - kaput.

3. God being a man/ the Messiah being God who became a man.
Christians will point out:

Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, A son is given to us; And the government Is upon His shoulder; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

7 To the increase of His government And to His peace there is no end, Upon the throne of David And over His kingdom, To establish it And to uphold it In justice and righteousness From now to eternity. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts Will accomplish this.

and Christians interpret that as saying that shows that God would be a man. Do Jews interpret that verse that way? I never heard that when I was in the Jewish religion one way or another. I really never even heard much if anything about the concept of a Messiah when I was Jewish either though.

Thank you in advance for any replies.

[Nikki74]

Sorry, I have no reply - just subbing...

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by christianmomof3

I was raised in the Reform Jewish religion and am now a born again Christian.
In general, the Christian religion sees itself as an offshoot of or fulfillment of or related to the Jewish religion.
I get that.
However, there are some fundamental concepts in Christianity that to me seem totally foreign to the Jewish religion.
Perhaps it is just because I did not get a really good Jewish education even though it was the culture that I was raised in.
So, I was wondering if the Jewish moms here or others who are knowledgeable about the Jewish concepts could help me out.
I have looked for these things in the Old Testament and in what I know about the Jewish religion and have not found them.
If I ask Christians, they don't really seem to understand how foreign those concepts seem to the Jewish religion. It is something I have been struggling with and wondered if I could get some other people's input on.
Thanks.
Here are some of the concepts I don't see in Judaism:

1. Salvation as understood in Christianity.
Christians feel that we are sinners and have a sinful nature in us and we need to be saved from our sins and sinful nature.
There are verses in the NT that indicate that we need to be "saved" from sin, sins, the self and the world.
But when we look in the Old Testament, God's salvation seems to usually, but not always, refer to being saved out of specific situations such as wars or captivity.

Is there any Jewish concept of "salvation" that is in any way similar to the Christian concept?

2. An afterlife. This is a huge thing in the Christian religion. Whether the concept is that you go to heaven or hell or that you become a part of the New Jerusalem, there is a definite belief in an afterlife and it is a very important part of Christianity. It is a driving force or goal to be saved or do good works in order to escape a bad afterlife. It is a reward that all Christians strive for in one way or another.

I never knew anything about any afterlife concept at all when I was Jewish. I have read online that some Jews do believe in some sort of afterlife, but it does not seem to be any sort of reward or punishment type thing - it is just for all Jews. Is the afterlife concept found throughout the Jewish religion and I just somehow missed it? I just thought when you die you are dead and it is over and that is it - kaput.

3. God being a man/ the Messiah being God who became a man.
Christians will point out:

Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, A son is given to us; And the government Is upon His shoulder; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

7 To the increase of His government And to His peace there is no end, Upon the throne of David And over His kingdom, To establish it And to uphold it In justice and righteousness From now to eternity. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts Will accomplish this.

and Christians interpret that as saying that shows that God would be a man. Do Jews interpret that verse that way? I never heard that when I was in the Jewish religion one way or another. I really never even heard much if anything about the concept of a Messiah when I was Jewish either though.

Thank you in advance for any replies.

I wonder if it would be helpful to look at some historical material on First Century Judaism? There has been a lot of time for changes since then, and I think there are some types or trains of thought in Judaism now that didn't exist then, and vice versa. Plus since then Judaism would have defined itself to some extent against Christianity, since religions in close contact always influence each other in one direction or the other, which could further complicate things.

As far as your first question about salvation - it seems to me that even the NT is clear that many of the Jews interpreted the job the Messiah was supposed to do in a worldly, rather than spiritual, sense. But another thing relates to the Christian understanding of this is what the Jews of that time understood to be the result of the Fall, and the purpose of the Law.

I suspect as far as the afterlife you would have more luck looking at the Greeks.

[zinemama]

I don't understand why you are surprised that Christianity has fundamentally different concepts than Judaism. While it's true that the first Christians were originally Jews, the religions are radically different.

[Nickarolaberry]

Let me try to be as succinct as possible, without getting into debates.

1) Torah Judaism does not have any concept of 'salvation' as such. Each person is responsible for his/her own behavior; for connecting with G-d through Torah and mitzvot and prayer; and for being part of the Jewish nation. We don't claim exclusivity to G-d's love, and we don't have any theology whatsoever of eternal 'damnation' because of a lack of belief. Every Jew has a place in the Jewish nation; and every Jew is simultaneously the master of his/her own relationship with G-d. There is no intercessor. Declaration of belief is only that there is One G-d. But that is not a precursor to 'salvation.' Such an idea is entirely foreign to Jewish teachings.

2) Yes, Jewish teachings do encompass the idea of an afterlife. It is not something that is dwelled upon, however, in common Jewish thought. More or less, the idea is that a person's soul (neshama) returns to G-d after the death of the body. For a righteous person, that proximity represents 'heaven' as G-d is the ultimate Good. For an evil person, such proximity to pure Good would be painful in light of the earthly person's misdeeds -- thus, an idea of 'hell.' But hellfire, damnation, fire, and brimstone? No. And earthly behavior is more about bringing righteousness into this world, connecting with G-d through Torah and mitzvot -- and much less about eternal reward. That's not to say it is trivial -- it's not. Many very wise and important Jewish rabbis, sages, and philosophers have commentaries on it. But it certainly is not a focus.

3) The messiah will be a man. Not divine in any way. Reading the Torah, Prophets, and Writings in the original Hebrew and with the necessary understanding of context (which has been passed down by Jews for about 3,000 years) leaves no doubt whatsoever about the nature of who the Messiah will be. He will not be divine in any way. There is absolutely zero basis for that concept in Torah thought. Zero. It is entirely a foreign, and Christian, idea.

Bluegoat, I'm afraid you are very much mistaken about the nature of 'first century' Judaism. Without going into too much detail here, there have always been chaotic and difficult times in Jewish history when individuals have emerged claiming to be the messiah or "savior." Because our messiah is destined to be a great leader, and one who will 'redeem' us from worldly oppression, eras of upheaval and violence are also times which instigate individuals who would like to claim 'messiah-hood'. Unfortunately in every single case it has been an unmitigated disaster for the Jewish people and ultimately in every case also led to great bloodshed and persecution. That does not mean that Jewish teachings about who the messiah will be have changed in any fundamental way. The Torah is the Torah, and the Torah tells us about the messiah.

Moreover, Judaism does not need to define itself in opposition to Christianity. Judaism is what it is; certainly in the second and third centuries of the common era, when the Mishnah and Talmud were written and redacted after a millenium of oral passing down, the every day practices of Judaism shifted to a diaspora world that did not include the (destroyed) Temple. If Judaism is put on the 'defense' in the sense of defining what it is *not* (i.e. a religion that would accept a divine messiah as true) it is only because the Jews were placed in that position as a minority group attempting to remain alive.

The purpose of the "Law" as you call it has never been a question. This is quite appropriate as we just celebrated the holiday of Shavuot, which commemorates the giving of the Torah by G-d to Moses and the Jewish people at Mt. Sinai. The 'purpose' of the Torah is to define life, and the relationship of the Jewish people with G-d. The 'purpose' of the mitzvot are to bring the Jewish people (and Jews, as individuals) closer to G-d -- and to bring G-d down to this world in a way that injects the holy into the profane, the sacred into the mundane, and light into murkiness.

Christians (or others) frequently misunderstand that the mitzvot are not about 'legalism' but rather about an incredibly beautiful and intricate web of relationship between G-d and the Jewish people.

OP, I want to say this gently. As a person who grew up in a religious tradition that was a pale imitation of the real thing, you might want to consider examining the gorgeous tapestry of Judaism on its own merits and from its own perspective, rather than as a cracked mirror as understood from the Christian viewpoint. It is impossible to understand the richness of Judaism and Torah from a worldview that consigns it to obscurity and failure. Christianity bases its own truth on the fact that Judaism and Torah are incomplete and/or incorrect. From that standpoint alone you will not be able to see Torah through its true, clear lens. If you are really interested, you have to examine it for what it is, on its own merits, rather than for what it is not.

[anj_rn]

Let me start by saying that I am not Jewish, but I was raised in a Conservative Jewish household. So I have a few perspectives. I would also like to state that these perspectives are based in my own experiences, not all jews or christians adhere to the same tenets of their religion.

Salvation - The old testament specifically required sacraficial atonement for sins or impurity (think doves, bulls, goats, etc). Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice, ending the need for offering animals for atonement by claiming Jesus's sacrifice as atonement (This is a Christian perspective, not a Jewish one). The OT included both laws for governence and spiritual laws, and as such most Jews see the laws as a legal system, in which there are penalties for breaking the law, not that the law-breaking makes you inherently evil. Christians view the laws of the bible as a moral code and compass, therefore violation of the laws has a different connotation.


Afterlife - I have never met a christian that did not believe in an afterlife, the usual division is good christians go to heaven (eternal happiness, streets paved in gold, no suffering) but the details of what heaven is like varies. Bab people (non-christians) go to hell (permanent torture with much weeping and gnashing of teeth) also can vary by denominations. Some denominations (specifically Catholicism) also beleive in Purgatory, where you can expiate your sins before admittance into heaven.
I have found some Jews that believe in an afterlife, some that don't. None that believe in the Christian concept of Hell. Some believe that the reference to the lake of fire will simply burn up those not worthy. I was taught that the fire would burn all but the vital spark that G-d has created in everyone and is worthy to be in G-d's presence. That would mean some people would have less to burn away than others.

Messiah - My understanding is that the Jewish Messiah will be a man that will bring peace on earth and to the Jewish nation. Basically, heaven on earth. This is very much a political/physical salvation, not a spiritual one.

[Nickarolaberry]

Anj, just to clarify...sacrifices at the Temple for atonement had nothing at all to do with salvation. Atonement for aveirot (usually translated as sin but it's not the exact translation) is still a central part of Jewish thought; i.e, that you try to make right where you have gone wrong.

But it is not the same thing as 'salvation' which I understand, from the Christian perspective, to mean 'entrance to heaven' or some such.

Being out of sync with G-d (i.e. having sinned) is a negative place for a person's neshama to be -- if he/she erred with respect to another person, he/she is expected to make that right (insofar as that is possible); if a person erred in his/her relationship to G-d, teshuva (repentance) is necessary.

But not because of a 'doomed to hell' sort of philosophy (for that matter we don't believe in 'original sin' either).

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry

Anj, just to clarify...sacrifices at the Temple for atonement had nothing at all to do with salvation. Atonement for aveirot (usually translated as sin but it's not the exact translation) is still a central part of Jewish thought; i.e, that you try to make right where you have gone wrong.

But it is not the same thing as 'salvation' which I understand, from the Christian perspective, to mean 'entrance to heaven' or some such.

Being out of sync with G-d (i.e. having sinned) is a negative place for a person's neshama to be -- if he/she erred with respect to another person, he/she is expected to make that right (insofar as that is possible); if a person erred in his/her relationship to G-d, teshuva (repentance) is necessary.

But not because of a 'doomed to hell' sort of philosophy (for that matter we don't believe in 'original sin' either).

In Christianity, salvation and atonement are closely related ideas, and has a lot to do with how we understand how we become closer to God in our daily life, and also in the afterlife. Given what you said about it in this post and your response to mine, it seems to me there is a pretty clear relationship between these ideas in Judaism and Christianity. And for that matter, pretty much every religion addresses these questions, which are simply human questions, but Christianity directly borrows the language and many concepts from Judaism. Not all Christians would consider the Law mere legalism - it has similarities with the idea of theosis, and I suspect they are probably actually historically related ideas.

I don't think I said the purpose of the Law was in question. I said that thinking about it might help the OP with her question.

It also sounds from what you said that the Jewish concept of the afterlife is quite similar to the Christian one, especially the way the Orthodox understand it, so that perhaps helps answer the OPs question.

I'm not sure what you mean about my concept of first century Judaism being wrong, since I said very little. I know that there are Jewish thinkers now who have ideas that did not exist in the first century, and I know there are groups which existed then that do not now. And there is no question that in the early centuries of the common era (and after that for that matter) that Jewish and Christian thinkers were both influenced by common sources and by each other, sometimes in a similar direction but other times choosing to actively distance themselves from each other. You can even see that happening in both Jewish and Christian thought now, so it should be no surprise that this happened in the past. I have never heard of any historian that says this did not happen, only people on internet forums that for some reason find it offensive.

I can certainly understand that you think the OPs education about Judaism was inadequate, and she as much as said so herself. But you seem to be assuming that Christianity is really as shallow as that too, which isn't the case either.

I can't understand why it would be strange that Christianity (or Islam) would have ideas that were related to Judaism - or why a person should not consider what they might be. Even from a totally non-religious perspective it is an interesting question.

FWIW, original sin is not a doctrine in all parts of the Christian world, the East has never had it.

[Nickarolaberry]

To the contrary, BG, I don't think Christianity is at all shallow.

I also understand the relationship of how religious philosophers take each others' teachings into account and use other religious ideas to clarify their own.

But that is not the same thing as *defining* one religion by what it isn't as compared to another.

For example, there is no question that the Rambam (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, known in Greek/English as Maimonides) wrote entire philosophical treatises about the concept of the messiah, who and what he will be, etc. -- and took great pains to distinguish the Torah idea of messiah from that of his own known context (the Christian and Muslim world). However, he did not define Judaism in light of what it was not (i.e. Christianity) but rather according to what it *is*.

Further, I in no way want to denigrate OP's religious journey or experiences. What I do want to do is caution against attempting to understand or appreciate the Jewish worldview from the perspective of Christian thought. For a born Christian who is seeking to broaden his/her own knowledge, that's wonderful and fine. For a born Jew who rejected/was unable to appreciate his/her heritage, it is an unfortunate way to approach the birthright that her Judaism represents. Not because Christianity is bad, or shallow -- but because Christianity is, in some very fundamental ways, unable to conceptualize the full tapestry of Torah.

It's hard to describe this -- but the western/Christian understanding of the world, religious thought, and the nature of G-d and our relationship to Him -- is ultimately one that is at odds with the inherent nature of the Jewish/Torah approach. It doesn't make one or the other 'bad' or 'shallow.' It simply, and very much essentially, alters the reality of how a person approaches understanding it.

My own youthful Jewish education was also lacking. I understand the difficulty of trying to figure it out; to surmount an inherently biased western worldview; to swim in a counter-culture tide as a minority trying to understand and acknowledge the uniqueness of my heritage while simultaneously attempting to make my way in the culture in which I live.

OP seems to be seeking out answers to some of her questions about how the two religions approach some very important questions. On these questions, the two religions have quite disparate and in many ways contradictory teachings. It might feel good to say they're similar or even equivalent, but they very much are not. And it would be disingenuous to claim otherwise.

(BTW, for Judaism, salvation and atonement/repentance are not at all part of the same equation. For Christians they very well might be, but as OP asked about how Judaism views this, the answer would be -- not the same.)

[Faliciagayle]

You won't find a definition or understanding of Jewish 'salvation' "as understood in Christianity" because there isn't one. Christianity may have been born of Judaism but the Christian perspective of salvation antithetical to Jewish thought... as is being born into sin or a messiah who is supposed to "save" us from ourselves.

We are not born into "sin." The English word "sin" has a extremely Christian connotation. Correct me if I'm wrong (Nic or others), but the concept of an aveira is a "missed opportunity."

The Jewish messiah isn't a spiritual negater, he's a man who will bring peace to the Nation of Israel.

[Purple Sage]

Subbing...interesting thread.

More or less, the idea is that a person's soul (neshama) returns to G-d after the death of the body. For a righteous person, that proximity represents 'heaven' as G-d is the ultimate Good. For an evil person, such proximity to pure Good would be painful in light of the earthly person's misdeeds -- thus, an idea of 'hell.'

As a Christian, this is very similar to my view of heaven/hell.

[lilyka]

It is also important to note that what western Christianity defines as salvation, how they interpret the Epistles, and such have undergone great change in the last 500 years or so. A lot of what is taught in modern American churches is not what has traditionally been taught or believed and in some cases is quite far from it. Especially in the last 800 or so since the reformation. Really even the last 100 years has seen huge chnages in doctrine, theology and understanding specifically of what salvation is, why it is needed and how you get it. If you look into more primitive church writings and such from the way back beginning you will see a different understanding of things like salvation and attaining a close relationship with God and what it meant to follow Christ. and how and why the prophesies of the old testement relate may make more sense accordingly(although they no doubt took on a life of their own that diverged sharply from the path the started on.) It seems to me the church Fathers were not shy about saying things akin to "well we interpreted that wrong. In light of who the Messiah was we can see how this prophesy applies/forshadows this event." or how this clearly meant something different than they had believed all along. Its not like they interpreted the scriptures and then waited for a guy who fit them. Instead a lot of it is retrospect. "Oh see how this prophesy/scripture was talking about this. It makes so much sense now."

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry

The 'purpose' of the Torah is to define life, and the relationship of the Jewish people with G-d. The 'purpose' of the mitzvot are to bring the Jewish people (and Jews, as individuals) closer to G-d -- and to bring G-d down to this world in a way that injects the holy into the profane, the sacred into the mundane, and light into murkiness.

I really like the way you worded this.

[christianmomof3]

Nickarolaberry, thank you for your insights. I do think that the Reform Jewish upbringing I had was in many ways very lacking. I was involved in BBYO and the JCC which included Jews from all 3 types, so I was exposed to a bit more than just Reform Judaism, but I never got any answers or explanations to anything. I was taught to question everything, but never given any answers. I found that frustrating and stupid and I decided that religion was useless. I still question everything and find that one of the most wonderful things that I did get out of my Jewish upbringing though. Another thing I got out of Judaism is the Shema. Even when I was not sure if God existed at all, I was sure that if there was a God, there was only One of Him.

The answer that I found to all of my questions is that Christ is God and there is only One God. He became a Man so that He could bring divinity into humanity and thus bring humanity into divinity. Now He can and does live within His redeemed and regenerated believers. To me, that is salvation.
I know that there is a variety of concepts of what salvation is throughout the many different Christian groups, but my understanding of salvation is that God became a man to redeem us for our sins and to become the Life-giving Spirit who can live within His redeemed and regenerated believers as our life and as everything we need. I experience Him as my life and peace and hope and faith and I am sure that He exists because He lives in me.

I have realized though that my Jewish background has given me a different perspective about God and religion than most other Christians, and my being a born again Christian of course makes me different from most Jews.

And as I look at the teachings of Christianity I wonder how they came to be that way if they are, as they claim to be, an offshoot of Judaism. Some of them are just so different.

One thing that was pointed out to me is that in the Old Testament - or Tanach, salvation is seen as for the Jews as a people - not for individuals whereas Christianity seems to see salvation as being for individuals.
I kind of see it both ways. We are individually saved, but we are saved in and through and for the Body of Christ.

[genifer]

Christianmommof3, I think, for me anyway, you offer a unique perspective that I can really appreciate. I dont really have time right now to go into details and I dont know when I will have the time but Ill just suggest this. Even tho perhaps Jewish thought doesnt have these concepts or the interpretation of the concepts you are questioning are different from ours, doesnt mean they arent in the Old Testament. Im beginning to understand that it may simply be a matter of interpretation. I can think of several instances, many many many instances that deal with all you are asking in various parts of the Old Testament. Ive questioned them all myself and alot of my own questioning came up when I started visiting mdc and met all kinds of people from all kinds of different faiths. Id find that my faith, or what I believe would be challenged so Id go and do the research biblically. This all deepened my faith, gave me greater understanding of all these things. And Im not done yet. Never did I end up corrected, as in my christian beliefs were wrong, they ended up being validated!

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry

I also understand the relationship of how religious philosophers take each others' teachings into account and use other religious ideas to clarify their own.

But that is not the same thing as *defining* one religion by what it isn't as compared to another.

For example, there is no question that the Rambam (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, known in Greek/English as Maimonides) wrote entire philosophical treatises about the concept of the messiah, who and what he will be, etc. -- and took great pains to distinguish the Torah idea of messiah from that of his own known context (the Christian and Muslim world). However, he did not define Judaism in light of what it was not (i.e. Christianity) but rather according to what it *is*.

Yes, I agree that this happens, but I would also argue that it is almost impossible for two groups like this not to, to some extend, t define themselves against each other. (I would also say this could be a bad thing if not done carefully).

As an example, the idea that the Messiah is meant to be a man who accomplishes concrete things in the world, rather than have some sort of spiritual purpose. Now, for me I could live with that, and say God had really surprised those people with what he did. But from a perspective that denies Jesus was the messiah, that won't work - somehow this idea must have arisen from within Judaism, or Jews must have got it from some other source. In any case, some Jews did think this. This view doesn't seem much in evidence today, and one could I think make a good argument that a kind of opposition with Christianity has contributed to that.

Further, I in no way want to denigrate OP's religious journey or experiences. What I do want to do is caution against attempting to understand or appreciate the Jewish worldview from the perspective of Christian thought. For a born Christian who is seeking to broaden his/her own knowledge, that's wonderful and fine. For a born Jew who rejected/was unable to appreciate his/her heritage, it is an unfortunate way to approach the birthright that her Judaism represents. Not because Christianity is bad, or shallow -- but because Christianity is, in some very fundamental ways, unable to conceptualize the full tapestry of Torah.

It's hard to describe this -- but the western/Christian understanding of the world, religious thought, and the nature of G-d and our relationship to Him -- is ultimately one that is at odds with the inherent nature of the Jewish/Torah approach. It doesn't make one or the other 'bad' or 'shallow.' It simply, and very much essentially, alters the reality of how a person approaches understanding it.

OP seems to be seeking out answers to some of her questions about how the two religions approach some very important questions. On these questions, the two religions have quite disparate and in many ways contradictory teachings. It might feel good to say they're similar or even equivalent, but they very much are not. And it would be disingenuous to claim otherwise.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by related. I don't mean they are the same - I mean something closer to analogous, dealing with similar problems, issues, etc. They could indeed be quite opposite in approach or in the answer they suggest. And in many cases you can see how the idea came to change, or be used differently, or even just rejected. To me, explicating that is very much answering the question of how they are related.

(BTW, for Judaism, salvation and atonement/repentance are not at all part of the same equation. For Christians they very well might be, but as OP asked about how Judaism views this, the answer would be -- not the same.)

But the Jewish idea is instrumental in the development of the Christian idea, which was simply my point.

I'd also support Lilyka's point about modern Christian language and thought being "more" different. 21st century Protestant Evangelical thought does seem eons away, with a completely foreign language, to Judaism. But I think a Jew looking at Orthodoxy, for example, would find it much more similar in approach. So really to understand how some Jewish ideas and Christian ideas are related, the OP would really have to look at the Christianity of the early Church, at least to start. And of course Christianity was also heavily influenced by Greek thought and philosophical language.

[genifer]

Correct me if I'm wrong (Nic or others), but the concept of an aveira is a "missed opportunity."

Thats very similar to the christian definition of sin, which is to miss the mark.

Also...

One thing that was pointed out to me is that in the Old Testament - or Tanach, salvation is seen as for the Jews as a people - not for individuals whereas Christianity seems to see salvation as being for individuals.

Salvation isnt just for individuals. I mean, thats part of it... but I believe its also about the body of believers, ykwim? Its definately a body of people sort of salvation, redemption. I dont see the bible really teaching that salvation is just an individual thing, its also a collective thing. Its as if believers, from the moment they were concieved, born, whatever, have a mark... they are then fished out and brought into the fold... 'brought home' if you will.

[mntnmom]

My understanding of Judaism is strictly academic. I was raised Christian, and have delved quite a bit into the history.
An important thing to remember, is the difference between the original concepts as written, and the interpretations that have been influenced by culture over the last 2000 years. Christianity may have been born from Judaism, so to speak. But the varieties most common in the US came of age in Europe. Traditional concepts of heaven and hell were heavily influenced by pre-Christian Germanic ideas. Most of the imagery of western Christianity is much more Roman than Jewish. The original ideas were an an outgrowth of Jewish tradition, but the way they are understood and practiced are something else entirely. I've even been told by Hebrew speaking friends, that a lot of the translation for the OT is "off".
Add to that the differences between denominations. The Catholics and the Baptists for instance agree on a lot of the big concepts, but interpret many parts *very* differently, and focus on radically different things.
I think it is very difficult to understand Judaism through the lens of a religion that sees itself as , essentially, a replacement for it. A thousand years of anti-Semitic thought followed by the modern attempt to embrace parts of Jewish tradition as they are convenient has hugely distorted that lens. I do think the suggestion to go back and study Judaism as a Jew would is a good one. That understanding, coupled with your faith in Christ would give you the best of both worlds.

[christianmomof3]

Originally Posted by mntnmom

I think it is very difficult to understand Judaism through the lens of a religion that sees itself as , essentially, a replacement for it. A thousand years of anti-Semitic thought followed by the modern attempt to embrace parts of Jewish tradition as they are convenient has hugely distorted that lens. I do think the suggestion to go back and study Judaism as a Jew would is a good one. That understanding, coupled with your faith in Christ would give you the best of both worlds.

I agree that I would possibly get the best answers from Judaism. I have a bit of a difficult time with it for a few reasons. For one thing, I did ask questions when I was Jewish and I did not get answers. I was usually told that is just what you do to be a good Jew. For another thing, I feel like I would be looked down upon by the Jews for having become a Christian - like I have done something wrong. It is a bit of an uncomfortable feeling. But, I am going to my cousin's wedding next month at a Conservative Jewish synagogue that I have never been to and I think I may see what they are like there.

[merpk]

Only 2 secs to type this so will just type the one thing Nic and fel haven't ...

My rebbe z'l taught that Mashiakh (the Messiah) would be a couple. As in a man and a woman couple. Since the Messiah will naturally have a soulmate, obviously she will naturally be on the same level, right?

May they come speedily in our day.