Pull Back or Explain? Parenting Dilemmas

[VisionaryMom]

We have dear friends who let their children do things that I think are rude & generally inconsiderate. Examples: My friend's 4YO wanted to join in on an adult frisbee game in a local green space. Friend told her son to "go ahead and play" with the adults. While we know the adults, she didn't ask or instruct her son to ask, whether they minded him joining in, and this was clearly adults playing. Later, one of the adults came over to me and said, "I can't find [4YOs] parents. I guess I'm supposed to be responsible for him, but I need to leave."

Last night, our children had Observation Night at dance. Friend & Husband let their 1YO play on the dance floor during the older children's class. (Obs Night is basically once a semester when parents are invited into class to watch rehearsal.) Her 1YO kept trying to hug DS while he was trying to dance. Despite him moving her over and moving out of the way, she kept doing it. They never got up! She pulled CDs off the instructor's shelf and generally got in the way of the older children & instructor. At one point, the instructor said, "oh, I'm afraid I'll step on you." The instructor made several subtle comments indicating that the toddler wasn't supposed to be dancing, but they don't respond to that.

So I'm left wondering what to do. With the frisbee thing, Friend told DS that her son was playing frisbee "with some grown-up." DS cried because I wouldn't let him go out there. Eventually I told him that adults were playing and that they hadn't invited 4YO to play. Last night DS said he was frustrated because 1YO wouldn't leave him alone during dance.

How much do you comment on others' parenting? My MIL said that Friend's actions are her representation of what she thinks is okay and that I should feel free to tell DC differently. Still I'm hesitant to say too much to DC that seems to be disparaging our friends - partly because I fear DS will repeat whatever I say if he gets upset with 4YO. DH said that he thinks we may need to pull back from hanging out with them some. Though we do enjoy the parents' company, DH is afraid that we're demonstrating to DC that it's okay to be inconsiderate of others. What do you think?

[karne]

I would have gotten up myself and removed the toddler from my son in your situation. It was his dance class and there wasn't any reason for him, you or the teacher to allow something to interfere with his class experience. He is your son and you would have been helping him learn to protect his space and acknowledge appropriate behavior and boundaries.

The Frisbee piece doesn't really involve you except to the extent that your 'ds' friend wasn't available to play with him. I wouldn't have allowed my child to do what the other parents did, but ultimately that's their call. I would have directed the Frisbee parents back to your friends, not you in terms of feeling like they had to watch him.

IMO, we all put out to our kids what works in OUR families, and why we make the choices we do, or have the expectations we do.

[One_Girl]

I would comment on the things that bother your child but not on their decision to let the children go where they shouldn't go. I would probably say something like "X was very dissappointed that he couldn't dance much because Y was interupting him so much. Can you make sure Y stays mostly in his own space as much as possible next time so both children can enjoy themselves?" You should also tell them what the frisby person said and that you don't want to be in a position where you field comments like that. This may cause your friendship to dwindle or it may cause them to think about what they are doing as parents.

It is mostly their job to tell the kids not to go places, but also partly the other adults job to stand up for their boundaries more firmly and because they aren't doing this the kids and parents think that is fine. The people playing frisby should have told the kid to find his mom and the teacher should have said quite clearly that the parents of the baby needed to get her off the dance floor so the dancers could dance uninterupted. I would probably tell the dance teacher that you are disapointed that she didn't clearly tell the parents to come get the child, just hinted around, and that it ruined your child's dance night and you don't want to see that happen again. I agree with directing the complainers to the parents also, maybe with a "they do this all the time and no one stands up to them" comment to encourage them to make their displeasure clear.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

It is mostly their job to tell the kids not to go places, but also partly the other adults job to stand up for their boundaries more firmly and because they aren't doing this the kids and parents think that is fine.

This.

Also, in my social circle, there is very little distinction between "adult" activities and "kid" activities. I don't think I am personally friends with anyone who would make a frisbee game "adult only," or take offense at a child joining the fun. People have different ideas about that sort of thing. And while I agree that any non-player should ask before intruding upon someone else's game, I don't see the big deal about it being adults who were playing. Children aren't second-class citizens.

[mamazee]

I think it would have been very reasonable to physically move the 1-year-old if you wanted to because it was interfering with your child's activities. As far as the game the adults were playing, I wouldn't get involved with that, but the adults could have certainly told the parents that the game was just for adults. I think generally the only people who should interfere when it's just a difference of parenting opinion are those who are being specifically impacted, or whose kids are being impacted, by the behavior.

I've told my dd many times that I'm only the mom of two people, her and her sister, and I make rules only for those two. Other parents get to make rules for their own kids. I often end up saying that to explain why other parents are stricter rather than why my kids can't do something other kids can do, although I would have stopped my children in either of the above scenarios. I'm not strict at all, but it is important to me to be considerate and teach my children to be considerate.

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by 2xy

This.

Also, in my social circle, there is very little distinction between "adult" activities and "kid" activities. I don't think I am personally friends with anyone who would make a frisbee game "adult only," or take offense at a child joining the fun. People have different ideas about that sort of thing. And while I agree that any non-player should ask before intruding upon someone else's game, I don't see the big deal about it being adults who were playing. Children aren't second-class citizens.

It isn't about children being second class citizens, it's about children as young as 4 playing differently. The people already playing shouldn't have to stop what they're doing and start playing in a way that accommodates a 4-year-old. Maybe the 4-year-old's parent could have started up a similar game for the children if her child wanted to play.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by mamazee

It isn't about children being second class citizens, it's about children as young as 4 playing differently. The people already playing shouldn't have to stop what they're doing and start playing in a way that accommodates a 4-year-old. Maybe the 4-year-old's parent could have started up a similar game for the children if her child wanted to play.

No, the people who were playing didn't have to stop what they were doing....they could have told the child that they were already playing a game and that the kids could have a turn when their game was finished. If someone does something you don't like, you can politely say so. That's something I teach MY kids....not to be a doormat.

However, since the group obviously allowed the child to join them....maybe the frisbee in use was the only one available. I don't know about you, but I don't take a frisbee with me everywhere I go.

And FWIW, you throw a frisbee and someone catches it, whether you're 4 or 40. I really don't see how a child playing is viewed as something ruinous. It's not like the adults were playing billiards or something.

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by 2xy

And FWIW, you throw a frisbee and someone catches it, whether you're 4 or 40. I really don't see how a child playing is viewed as something ruinous. It's not like the adults were playing billiards or something.

Adults play other games with Frisbees, and children aren't always as good at manging the throwing or the catching as adults. It is a different style of play no matter what you're playing with. Even 10-year-olds and 4-year-olds play differently enough that I wouldn't expect a group of 10-year-olds to accommodate a 4-year-old. It would become a completely different game, basically just teaching the 4-year-old what to do.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by mamazee

Adults play other games with Frisbees, and children aren't always as good at manging the throwing or the catching as adults. It is a different style of play no matter what you're playing with. Even 10-year-olds and 4-year-olds play differently enough that I wouldn't expect a group of 10-year-olds to accommodate a 4-year-old. It would become a completely different game, basically just teaching the 4-year-old what to do.

And, once again, the adults playing could easily have explained that they didn't want any more players. Sure, the kid probably would have been upset. That's for the kid's parents to deal with. Playing the martyr doesn't help anything. If the frisbee group didn't want the kid around, all they had to do was say so.

No, I wouldn't expect people to accommodate a child. I would just think more highly of them if they did.

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by 2xy

And, once again, the adults playing could easily have explained that they didn't want any more players. Sure, the kid probably would have been upset. That's for the kid's parents to deal with. Playing the martyr doesn't help anything. If the frisbee group didn't want the kid around, all they had to do was say so.

No, I wouldn't expect people to accommodate a child. I would just think more highly of them if they did.

Yes, I think the adults should have said they didn't want the child playing if they didn't want that. But I personally would have taught my child that children aren't automatically included in games adults are playing.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by 2xy

This.

Also, in my social circle, there is very little distinction between "adult" activities and "kid" activities. I don't think I am personally friends with anyone who would make a frisbee game "adult only," or take offense at a child joining the fun. People have different ideas about that sort of thing. And while I agree that any non-player should ask before intruding upon someone else's game, I don't see the big deal about it being adults who were playing. Children aren't second-class citizens.

No, I don't think the age was the main issue in that anyone should ask before just barging into a game. Just to insert yourself into another's game is rude. At the same time, these were 4 childless adults in their early 20s playing a game that the 4YO doesn't have the coordination to play. He cannot throw a Frisbee, and I personally wouldn't join in on a game I couldn't play with people who were skilled and playing.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by 2xy

And, once again, the adults playing could easily have explained that they didn't want any more players. Sure, the kid probably would have been upset. That's for the kid's parents to deal with. Playing the martyr doesn't help anything. If the frisbee group didn't want the kid around, all they had to do was say so.

No, I wouldn't expect people to accommodate a child. I would just think more highly of them if they did.

The parents weren't around. I'm trying to think of the best way to explain the set-up. This was in a walking area of downtown. The Frisbee was in a large green space with a half wall around it. Mom let the child go into the walled in area and then she went to a coffee shop across the street. She told her child he could play Frisbee but didn't say anything to the adults (as relayed to me by the person who said he supposed he was responsible for the child).

I ended up taking the child to find his parents because the adults needed to leave. So the point isn't so much the Frisbee game (though as I said the child doesn't have the coordination to either throw or catch - even for a 4YO) as the fact that I'm not sure how direct to be with my own child about why it's rude to do that to other people.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by karne

I would have gotten up myself and removed the toddler from my son in your situation. It was his dance class and there wasn't any reason for him, you or the teacher to allow something to interfere with his class experience. He is your son and you would have been helping him learn to protect his space and acknowledge appropriate behavior and boundaries.

Hmm. This is what DH wanted to do, but I stopped him. Maybe I shouldn't have. DS was handling it by moving her from him, though he had to do it repeatedly. I just felt we'd then have to watch the child if we removed her because I don't think her parents would have taken her. They live in this theory of "the village," but it really just comes out to mean that they don't watch their children in group settings.

Reading the responses, though, I can see that we need to be firm about our boundaries and what is and isn't acceptable. I know DH has told the 4YO a few times that he needs to go find his parents because DH is in a place where he can't or doesn't want to watch another child, though it doesn't seem to have any longer-term effect.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

I'm not sure how direct to be with my own child about why it's rude to do that to other people.

Different families have different rules.

Part of being in a family is following the rules for that family. You might point out some of the rules that are *better* (from his point of view) in your family.

I don't know that you have to get into the *whys* of the rules, but small children love being part of their own family.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

I don't know that you have to get into the *whys* of the rules, but small children love being part of their own family.

Yes, with my son, you have to get into further explanations than vague statements like "different families have different rules." He expects a more thorough explanation & discussion.

[lynsage]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

They live in this theory of "the village," but it really just comes out to mean that they don't watch their children in group settings.

someone needs to explain to them that "the village" taking care of each other means each person pulls THEIR OWN weight when they can and "the village" steps in when they can't. also, that type of community living requires the consent of the people around the family. villages tend to be made up of people with similar values who have certain social contracts with one another based on their shared mores. you don't just create an instant village by letting your kids run around like maniacs and disrupt other people's activities while you neglect them- and yes, I FIRMLY believe that sending a four-year-old child to play Frisbee with a random group of adults without even speaking to them first and then going across the street and leaving the child alone is neglect, if not endangerment.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by lynsage

and yes, I FIRMLY believe that sending a four-year-old child to play Frisbee with a random group of adults without even speaking to them first and then going across the street and leaving the child alone is neglect, if not endangerment.

I'm glad to know we're not alone in this thought. DH has been adamant about it lately - and growing more so. We really do enjoy the parents' friendship, but as DH says "they're good friends, not parents."

[rainyday]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

The parents weren't around. I'm trying to think of the best way to explain the set-up. This was in a walking area of downtown. The Frisbee was in a large green space with a half wall around it. Mom let the child go into the walled in area and then she went to a coffee shop across the street. She told her child he could play Frisbee but didn't say anything to the adults (as relayed to me by the person who said he supposed he was responsible for the child).

I ended up taking the child to find his parents because the adults needed to leave. So the point isn't so much the Frisbee game (though as I said the child doesn't have the coordination to either throw or catch - even for a 4YO) as the fact that I'm not sure how direct to be with my own child about why it's rude to do that to other people.

Wow. The parents left their 4 yo at the park without explicitly asking someone else to be responsible for him? To me that goes beyond rude and into downright neglectful. I realize that she knew the people playing frisbee, but to not tell them where she was going, not mention that she sending her child over to them and to then just leave the park and CROSS THE STREET? That's neglect, imo.

As for what you should do, pull back or explain, I guess that depends on your relationship with them. Like most of the other posters, I'd be a whole lot firmer about setting boundaries when around them, though.

[plunky]

Originally Posted by 2xy

And FWIW, you throw a frisbee and someone catches it, whether you're 4 or 40. I really don't see how a child playing is viewed as something ruinous. It's not like the adults were playing billiards or something.

When I throw a "frisbee", it's a 175g heavy disc that will be thrown with force inappropriate for a four year old. I'm cool with kids joining in the fun sometimes, but sometimes you want to actually play with other adults who have developed skills. I think that was what the OP was getting at, before frisbee was derailed as not as adult as other things like billiards.

What if they had been playing a disc sport like guts or ultimate? Definitely not appropriate for a four year old. What if they had been playing catch with a football and standing far apart doing it?

[Hoopin' Mama]

Originally Posted by 2xy

No, the people who were playing didn't have to stop what they were doing....they could have told the child that they were already playing a game and that the kids could have a turn when their game was finished. If someone does something you don't like, you can politely say so. That's something I teach MY kids....not to be a doormat.

However, since the group obviously allowed the child to join them....maybe the frisbee in use was the only one available. I don't know about you, but I don't take a frisbee with me everywhere I go.

And FWIW, you throw a frisbee and someone catches it, whether you're 4 or 40. I really don't see how a child playing is viewed as something ruinous. It's not like the adults were playing billiards or something.

Some people, especially childless people, don't reallly know how to deal with that situation. Before I had a child I wouldn't have known how to tell the child to go away without feeling like I was being a meanie. I think the OP was correct in not letting her child play.