Pull Back or Explain? Parenting Dilemmas - Page 2

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

Yes, with my son, you have to get into further explanations than vague statements like "different families have different rules." He expects a more thorough explanation & discussion.

Then you are going to have to give him the real story about exactly why you set the rules and boundaries that you do.

I tried to avoid the "whys" when it was a difference with friends because I didn't want my kids to get a judgmental thing about which set of rules was right, and sometimes I found I needed to have these conversations in front of my friends and their kids.

But if you child won't settle for less, then you have to explain.

<< Still I'm hesitant to say too much to DC that seems to be disparaging our friends - partly because I fear DS will repeat whatever I say if he gets upset with 4YO. >>

still, your obligation to be the best parent possible is higher than your obligation to be a good friend. "We choose to do X because of Y, but they see if differently" is most likely as neutral as you can get.

[KristyDi]

Originally Posted by 2xy

This.

Also, in my social circle, there is very little distinction between "adult" activities and "kid" activities. I don't think I am personally friends with anyone who would make a frisbee game "adult only," or take offense at a child joining the fun. People have different ideas about that sort of thing. And while I agree that any non-player should ask before intruding upon someone else's game, I don't see the big deal about it being adults who were playing. Children aren't second-class citizens.

Originally Posted by 2xy

No, the people who were playing didn't have to stop what they were doing....they could have told the child that they were already playing a game and that the kids could have a turn when their game was finished. If someone does something you don't like, you can politely say so. That's something I teach MY kids....not to be a doormat.

However, since the group obviously allowed the child to join them....maybe the frisbee in use was the only one available. I don't know about you, but I don't take a frisbee with me everywhere I go.

And FWIW, you throw a frisbee and someone catches it, whether you're 4 or 40. I really don't see how a child playing is viewed as something ruinous. It's not like the adults were playing billiards or something.

The OP used the phrase "adult frisbee game" that make me think they were not just flinging a frisbee around randomly, but playing an organized game like Ultimate Frisbee. In a game like that a 4YO is totally out of place and if the adults don't slow way down and basically stop playing the kid is going to get hurt.

A lot of childless people aren't sure when they're allowed to tell other people's kids "no." So while I agree that the group should have said no to the kid I can see why they might not feel able to. In addition I think the mom should have been able to look and see that the adults were engaged and not just assumed her kid would be welcome. It's a parent's job to teach a kid social graces and an adult wouldn't just run up and join someone's game without asking.


OP I've recently spent less time with a friend because I'm uncomfortable with her standards of public behavior for her kids. She seems to be ok with her kids disrupting others, while I try to avoid it. We're still friends, but I just try to hang out with her at really family friendly places or at one of our houses.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

The parents weren't around. I'm trying to think of the best way to explain the set-up. This was in a walking area of downtown. The Frisbee was in a large green space with a half wall around it. Mom let the child go into the walled in area and then she went to a coffee shop across the street.

Neglectful UAV who uses people for free babysitting without asking.

I'd tell other adults to handle the parents themselves and walk the kids right back to their parents whenever they try to leave them without clearing it with me first. "Look who I found wandering!"

[phathui5]

The Frisbee was in a large green space with a half wall around it. Mom let the child go into the walled in area and then she went to a coffee shop across the street.

That seems odd.

[Peony]

I do tell my children that "X might be doing that but MY children do not." Later I explain why jumping from a high box into a trampoline full of children is not a good idea despite all the other children doing it.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by mamazee

Yes, I think the adults should have said they didn't want the child playing if they didn't want that. But I personally would have taught my child that children aren't automatically included in games adults are playing.

I wouldn't teach my chldren that. But, I would - and do - teach them that one doesn't just include oneself in someone else's game/activity without an invitation, or at least getting permission.

From dealing with people like this irl, I'd say they feel the onus is on other people to make it clear when their children aren't welcome. I don't agree - I think it's rude to just involve oneself like that - but if they're operating from that viewpoint, then the rest of you (you, your ds's dance instructor, the frisbee players, etc.) are going to have to establish firm boundaries and spell things out clearly.

Personally, I'd probably back off a bit on socializing with them, but maybe not. It would depend on how things played out once I started being a little more firm about things.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Personally, I'd probably back off a bit on socializing with them, but maybe not. It would depend on how things played out once I started being a little more firm about things.

We are going to pull back some. Last night we were at the farmers' market. Last year I noticed they often let their son ride his bike through the market, almost running over people and stands. Actually several times DH and I (and other adults) stopped him because he *was* hitting people. Of course after someone said something to DH about "letting his child run wild," we always made it a point to be clear that he's not our child (which, yes, may sound petty, but I don't want people thinking we're schmoes who let our kid run over tomatoes randomly). Anyway, last year, I kept DS occupied with helping pick out produce.

Last night, I was at a booth I had set up, and I turned around to see DC running full-speed through the market with their friend. (Apparently DH asked the other mom to watch our kids while he grabbed something from our car. ) When I pulled them away and told them that they cannot run through where people are shopping, DS got really upset because "[Friend] is running." So I finally just said, "well, it's rude. I just saw him run into an older lady. You just can't do that." It made me realize that we have to be firmer with DS about how inappropriate we find some of this behavior and that it may mean trying not to be at the same places at the same time so often or just being more vocal when we think something they're letting their kids do isn't acceptable.

[Hoopin' Mama]

That sounds like a good idea. I've had to stop having casual dinners with one family because they let their child run around the restaurant. When it's just their child and mine, it's very hard to make my child not to do it.

[limabean]

I would be direct about speaking up when their kids' actions are directly impacting your kids, like when their baby was interfering with your DS's dance class. I would have said something like, "DS isn't able to participate with your LO right there, would you please move him from the dance area?"

I know it feels "rude" to say something like that, especially when it involves someone's children, but your friends seem completely unconcerned with etiquette themselves, so I'd just assume they have a thick skin in that department and start being very direct with them. That's my new philosophy -- if you're a social brute, you must not mind if I treat you less delicately than I treat more polite people.

[journeymom]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

So the point is ... I'm not sure how direct to be with my own child about why it's rude to do that to other people.

So your question isn't 'Was what the other mom did wrong?" but "Is it OK for me to reveal to my own child that I don't approve of what this other mom did?"

What is your concern? What will happen if you're direct with your own child?

I've been in a similar situation and it's odd: I become keenly aware of the authority dynamic. Is it OK to let my child know that basically, there are parents who do things wrong? What will my child do with this information?

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom

DS got really upset because "[Friend] is running." So I finally just said, "well, it's rude. I just saw him run into an older lady. You just can't do that." It made me realize that we have to be firmer with DS about how inappropriate we find some of this behavior and that it may mean trying not to be at the same places at the same time so often or just being more vocal when we think something they're letting their kids do isn't acceptable.

I think you're doing the best you can.


ON the frisbee tangent:

Originally Posted by Hoopin' Mama

Some people, especially childless people, don't reallly know how to deal with that situation. Before I had a child I wouldn't have known how to tell the child to go away without feeling like I was being a meanie. I think the OP was correct in not letting her child play.

This was definitely me before kids, and I can imagine the same with my adult nieces and nephews, for example. It would be ideal if they'd magically know how to finesse the kid back to their mom, it would be nice. But it's not their obligation. To expect otherwise ...well, that doesn't make sense to me.

Big 20 year olds flinging the frisbee really hard and running all out to catch it could trample a 4 y.o, and frankly, NO a 4 y.o. cannot throw the frisbee nearly far enough. Should the adults have to make their game come to a screeching halt in order to accommodate someone's child?

[journeymom]

I just wanted to agree with the others that your choices aren't either pull back or explain to your child, but you can also choose to say something to your friends. Maybe all three things.

Some people have this skill, they can just casually, cheerfully deliver potentially delicate suggestions in a way that makes the person feel like they've simply been informed, not criticized. This does not come naturally to me!

Originally Posted by limabean

I know it feels "rude" to say something like that, especially when it involves someone's children, but your friends seem completely unconcerned with etiquette themselves, so I'd just assume they have a thick skin in that department and start being very direct with them. That's my new philosophy -- if you're a social brute, you must not mind if I treat you less delicately than I treat more polite people.

Good point

[rainyday]

Originally Posted by journeymom

I just wanted to agree with the others that your choices aren't either pull back or explain to your child, but you can also choose to say something to your friends. Maybe all three things.

Some people have this skill, they can just casually, cheerfully deliver potentially delicate suggestions in a way that makes the person feel like they've simply been informed, not criticized. This does not come naturally to me!

I would so love to have this skill!

[NellieKatz]

I agree that children are not second-class citizens but sometimes if they are real small and the people playing frisbee are somewhat competent at it, then the frisbee game effectively is stopped when the little kid joins because everyone spends the rest of the game time fishing the frisbee out of the shrubs.

And I hold myself to the same standards...I would hesitate before joining a frisbee game if I knew I sucked at it (which I do, by the way!) and if it would sort of wreck the game by my joining.

However, if all players (adults & kids) in the example were of equal skill in getting the frisbee from point A to point B, then a simple courtesy question, "hey, mind if I join in?" would be in order, and I imagine that "come on & join us" would be the response.

[BetsyNY]

I agree with the PPs re: a child joining a game--has nothing to do with being a "second class citizen"--it's not an issue of whether or not the child is behaving appropriately, it's an issue of whether or not the parents are behaving appropriately. IMO, they are not, and it would put a strain on our friendship for sure.

[newbymom05]

There are families we've stopped spending time with b/c we've disagreed with their rules for social outings, but it's tough, esp at this age. Our best friends are pretty similar to us on expected behavior, but get our 4 boys (all 5 and under) together and watch out! I just tell my 5 y/o that X's family may have different rules and expectations, and leave it at that, b/c I agree w/ you, OP, whatever you say may very well get back to the other couple.

What I've been doing lately is complimenting my two once we're home on positive behavior, like "I really like the way you and your brother stayed in your seats/used your inside voices/used your table manners/etc. I can take you boys anywhere and be proud!" I don't want to disparage our good friends, b/c they are good friends, and I know you can't always expect young kids to act like young adults. Honestly, though, part of me wants to stop going to restaurants w/ them b/c it's just exhausting, not to mention embarrassing!

But if they weren't such good friends, and esp if their behavior was affecting my kids (like at the dance) I'd just avoid them. Re: that dance, I think that was v. rude of the parents, but the teacher should have said something to them, not you. If your DH wanted to, great, but IMO that was the teacher's responsibility. The fact she didn't implies to me that the parents give out a "not our problem" vibe.