Please tell me what I'm doing wrong?? Is it me? - Page 3

[ssh]

Originally Posted by brokenheart

: I don't believe 5, 6, 7 year olds are always capable of making choices that are in their best interest. If she was totally in charge of her own body/life, she'd never brush her teeth and she'd eat lollipops for breakfast. And I do care what other people think. I don't want people judging my child at school if she's dirty. Also, I didn't think I needed to get into all the details, but there were real reasons why on this particular day she had to have her bath right then. I am not unreasonable or rigid. If she could have had a bath before school or before bed, that would have been fine. She couldn't this time.

My 4.5 DD year is, except for physical emergencies like severe injuries, is in charge of her own body. She does brush her teeth or we don't buy anything with sugar in it. She eats whatever she wants, that we have, for breakfast. I don't brush her hair if she doesn't want me to, she takes baths and showers when she wants, and she wears what she wants. We've always respected her personal physical autonomy so maybe she's used to having choice, but we do not have chaos. She is fairly co-operative and we don't have a lot of behavioral drama. In your situation where your DD "needed a bath right then" mine would have had the option of cleaning up instead. We've had times when my DD has been too dirty to be in the house without getting everything dirty. Washing her hands, feet and face along with a change of clothes is enough. We respect my DDs right to say no to a bath, but we have the right to say "ewww you can't bring that gross 'whatever' in the house, you need to wash your hands/feet/etc.".

Another issue is your reaction to your DD being upset. When a child has a tantrum it's helpful to not take their behavior and words personal. Staying calm helps them calm down too. When you get really upset it can be scary. Since you showed your DD that getting her treat was dependent on being nice by taking it away for being rude, her idea that being nice would get it is logical.

[*bejeweled*]

My 7 yo DD acts like this sometimes. I try to ignore her and let it pass. Later when she asks me for something, I reply, "I'm sorry, but I don't do favors for people who treat me badly." And I don't do it.

I refuse to be treated badly by anyone. And she needs to learn what MY boundaries are. I figure it is also teaching her not to allow others to treat her badly.

Originally Posted by brokenheart

It does, but it isn't a one-time thing. She feels that she can be really rude and disrespectful to me (but not her dad). Considering all I do for her (don't get me wrong...he's a great father, but I'm the one who is always thinking of her and doing nice little things for her), it just hurts to be treated like that. Even by a 7 year old. Her main trigger is not getting her own way. Be that not getting to go for ice cream when we are out, not getting a toy from a store, not getting to stay longer at a playdate). She gets so rude/angry (and it is always directed at me).

I love her so much, but I know if anyone was watching they would think she's a spoiled brat.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by brokenheart

But when she starts saying outright "NO" and trying to make it impossible for me to get her hair washed and being rude to me, I think she needs to have a consequence at that point. I'm trying to follow the concept of "natural consequences". So to me, a natural consequence is that if she is wasting so much time arguing with me, she's not ready in time and she can't come with me on the errands. AND, if she's rude to me, a natural consequence is that while I'm running errands alone, I'm not going to want to go out of my way to pick up a treat for a child who is behaving rude, mouthy, and uncooperative. At least that's how I view it.

So at what age can your DD say NO and expect anyone to respect it? The natural consequence of not washing your hair is having dirty hair, not staying home. That's a punishment. Actually the idea that your DD "needs to have a consequence" is punitive. If your relationship with your DD is built on rewards and punishment you can expect drama because your DD is going to have hurt feelings, get angry, and learn to be manipulative. Using rewards and punishment is manipulative and controlling in nature. It's your choice, one of the alternatives is to base the relationship on respect and use guidance and modeling appropriate behaviors to help your DD make good choices herself. When the parent-child relationship is adversarial, strong willed or persistent children who resent the idea of being made to do things are going to be upset, angry, or rude. If you want to continue having a punitive parenting style you need to become thick skinned, because if your 7 year old DD can hurt your feelings, just wait until she's 13 and hormonal.

[reignbelle]

I would not have taken the snack away. It had nothing to do with the problem. Also you said you try to do natural consequences. The natrural consequences for being rude is not loss of snack. That being said she shouldn't be rude. She may need help managing her anger Ioappropriately. Helping her reword herself may help. She didn't really mean "i dont Like you" (im positive she loves you) she meant "i dislike your decision" yelling obviously is wrong and she should calm down in a appropriate way. Have a talk about things she could do to calm down (i take a shower, my husband plays guitar, brother has a punching bag, my 3 yearold cries and colors) I want to say also that ignoring her may make it worse. My ex did this. I always became pissed at him for it. I knew any disagreement would lead to the cold shoulder. I just read your post explaining your though on natural consequence. I think denying the snack because she made you r un out of time and you explained that. if she didn't hurry there wouldn't be time for snack then not getting it was a natural co.sequence. if you decided not to get the snack to be spiteful (you didn't help me so I won't help you now) then I would disagree. I would have gotten thw snack in hopes of modeling forgives.

[Earthy Mama]

I think that it is a natural consequence. "You have to take a bath before we go to the store (where the snack is)."
She did not take a bath. They did not go to the store. Therefore, there was no way the snack would be able to be purchased.
I see nothing wrong with expecting her 7 year old to be clean when going to the store if that is what is expected in her family. I personally wouldn't care, but that's what she wants. It doesn't make it wrong.

I told my daughter that her bedroom has to be cleaned before she goes to her friend's party tomorrow. Are the two events "really" connected? No. But, that's my rule. And, no she doesn't have to clean her room, but if she wants to go to the party, she'll clean her room.

[*bejeweled*]

Yes! This is how the real world works.

Originally Posted by Earthy Mama

I told my daughter that her bedroom has to be cleaned before she goes to her friend's party tomorrow. Are the two events "really" connected? No. But, that's my rule. And, no she doesn't have to clean her room, but if she wants to go to the party, she'll clean her room.

[northcountrymamma]

I think this situation has been well analyzed by many different parenting styles...

I just wanted to chime in to comment on the timing of the situation.

re: a bath before going out.

to many people a bath is a very relaxing and settling thing. Going out is the opposite of this, stimulating and for many unsettling...

I would have gone out first and ended the day with a bath...from our experiences with dd (6), a bath has to come at the end of the day or it creates anxieties about it...

Maybe the order of things created the chaos?

But I know this is just one situation, dd is also quite rude to me sometimes, but I think it's because she feels safe to express herself fully to me and sometimes that expression is a little on the rude side.

you're on the right track mamma...6 and 7 are tough ages with girls as they move away from mamma dependence and towards independence.

[brokenheart]

I really appreciate everyone's suggestions/comments. I honestly feel a lot better now. I was PMSy when this happened, and I've also realized I'm probaby a bit of a "push over" when it comes to DD. Only because I just love her and want her to be happy. But honestly, after 7 years of parenting her I guess I can say that an overly gentle, permissive style doesn't work well on her. She's "bold" (for lack of a better word). I certainly don't want to squash her spirit (that boldness may serve her well as an adult), but I want to maintain some sense of order in my home, and I don't want her viewing me as a marshmallow. I am the adult, and I have her very best interests at heart...I cannot allow her to lead the way.

So anyway, all this leads me to realize I have to try to be firmer (yet still loving and respectful). She has plenty of choice, but when I tell her something needs to be done a certain way, she must listen. It would be different if she were 11/12/13. But she's 7 (and a rather young 7). I'm still in control.

I know she's still love me, and perhaps even respect me more. Her dad is much firmer than I am (he does not put up with any nonsense). He also isn't always concerned about her emotions (ex: if we have to go somewhere and she's not happy about it, it doesn't bother him...he allows her to feel annoyed as long as she isn't being rude or disruptive). This is all opposite of how I behave. And the bottom line? She ADORES her dad (and I know she adores me too). She isn't the least bit resentful of his parenting style. And when he's looking after her, there is never EVER any drama. Because she respects him and listens to him.

Now....I just need to figure out how to put all this into practice. LOL

[phathui5]

Originally Posted by lolar2

Although I do insist on hair-washing, I'm not sure about this analogy. Dirty hair won't cause hair-decay or heart disease.

No, but for my children, it would exacerbate their weird scalp issues. So it could cause uncomfortable-ness for them.

Plus, if my kids were in school (and they're not), I would be treating their hair with tea tree oil to ward off lice.

And the bottom line? She ADORES her dad (and I know she adores me too). She isn't the least bit resentful of his parenting style. And when he's looking after her, there is never EVER any drama. Because she respects him and listens to him.

I hate to over generalize here, but that could be a girl thing. I listened to my dad growing up, but I always gave my mom a hard time, up until I moved out.

[Shahbazin]

I really like Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot The Dog book http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Shoot-Dog...5011043&sr=1-1
It's about positive reinforcement & behavior modification, & while dog trainers pounced on it, it was written for human as well as animal interactions. I'd originally read it as a dog trainer myself but found it very useful as a teacher, & now as a mom. I do allow my kids a lot of choices, but have certain rules that we don't bend on, I let my kids know what we are doing next & why, & there are known consequences for things (I try not to surprise them). Consistent follow through in the beginning makes for less or no arguing/testing later - they know you mean it, so it doesn't get blown up into a big deal. I learned early on that the worst thing you can do when teaching a dog is to nag them - makes for slow response at best, ignoring you being likely - same applies to kids. I don't ask unreasonable things - their clothes should be reasonably clean (& they should be wearing some!) when we go places, but I'll stick a jacket or something in the car if I think the temperature might call for it (after opining that they might want one, but that they can find out for themselves), & I'm not fussy about what they pick out. So I pick my battles. Doesn't make for perfect interactions always, but we do pretty well most of the time.

I think it's perfectly reaonable to not go out & get a treat while out, if some prep work needed wasn't cooperated with; I would make sure the consequences of non-cooperation were known, & explain why the clean hair was important to me. (I love you, I like to see you looking your best, tomorrow is a special day & it's respectful to other people to be clean & neat, it's part of my job as a mommy to help keep you clean; so, dirty hair is not an option, your choice is to cooperate & go for a trip with me (& get a treat while we're out), or make a fuss & stay home.)

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by brokenheart

Yes, I love that book! Yes, it was an emotional reaction on my part. I figured....DD is sitting here making my life difficult and arguing with me when I have a very limited amount of time to get our stuff done. I wasn't feeling that great, and I didn't want to expend more energy arguing about nonsense (I truly don't believe this is about washing hair....it is a power struggle IMO). I asked her a couple of times what would make it better....warmer water? cooler water? did she want me to help her? I don't know why she feels the need to struggle for power...she has lots of power over many, many facets of her life. But anyway....

If she was just arguing with me, dawdling, etc., I could handle it. But when she starts saying outright "NO" and trying to make it impossible for me to get her hair washed and being rude to me, I think she needs to have a consequence at that point. I'm trying to follow the concept of "natural consequences". So to me, a natural consequence is that if she is wasting so much time arguing with me, she's not ready in time and she can't come with me on the errands. AND, if she's rude to me, a natural consequence is that while I'm running errands alone, I'm not going to want to go out of my way to pick up a treat for a child who is behaving rude, mouthy, and uncooperative. At least that's how I view it.

I agree with you 100% percent. Sometimes it seems to me on MDC that "child-respectful parenting" is more like "child rules the roost and can behave however they want" parenting. Kids need consequences and yes, it is a natural consequence for you not to go get her a treat when she is being snotty to you. If my husband told me he would pick me up a treat but then I started being horrible to him I can guarantee you that when he came back he would not have gotten me a treat! And why would he? I was being rude and mean and who cares if he offered the treat before if I was subsequently rude to him. Seems logical to me. One of the goals of parenting is preparing your child for the real world and in the real world how you treat people DOES affect what you receive back in return. I would lean towards you needing to be more firm and doling out more consequences to improve her behaviour.

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by ssh

So at what age can your DD say NO and expect anyone to respect it? The natural consequence of not washing your hair is having dirty hair, not staying home. That's a punishment. Actually the idea that your DD "needs to have a consequence" is punitive. If your relationship with your DD is built on rewards and punishment you can expect drama because your DD is going to have hurt feelings, get angry, and learn to be manipulative. Using rewards and punishment is manipulative and controlling in nature. It's your choice, one of the alternatives is to base the relationship on respect and use guidance and modeling appropriate behaviors to help your DD make good choices herself. When the parent-child relationship is adversarial, strong willed or persistent children who resent the idea of being made to do things are going to be upset, angry, or rude. If you want to continue having a punitive parenting style you need to become thick skinned, because if your 7 year old DD can hurt your feelings, just wait until she's 13 and hormonal.

Consequences are a part of life. Your child can be inside a bubble in your own little world but when they go out into the real world there will be consequences for their behaviour. I personally think anyone who leads their child to believe that they can have/do whatever they want is doing their child a huge disservice.

[brokenheart]

Originally Posted by Heavenly

Consequences are a part of life. Your child can be inside a bubble in your own little world but when they go out into the real world there will be consequences for their behaviour. I personally think anyone who leads their child to believe that they can have/do whatever they want is doing their child a huge disservice.

Ah, thank you for that. I agree too (even though it may not be the popular opinion). I was thinking my child must be much more "spirited" because no way would that type of parenting work on her. And like I said, I think I'm pretty permissive (which may be causing the issue in the first place). I offer her lots of choices...what does she want for breakfast? does she want to wear ___ or ____? Does she want to brush her hair, or shall I? Etc. But as for her being completely in charge of every choice/her body, etc....um no.

Maybe she's an immature 7. But she'd never (ever) brush her hair...it would turn into a matted clump. She'd never brush her teeth. Doubt she'd take a bath. Some people may say the natural consequence would be that she'd need to get her hair cut off and people would not want to be around her because she's dirty. Well, yes, there's that. But that's not fair to her! If I allow that to happen, I'm not doing a good job as her parent. She's only been on this earth for 7 years. I've been here a lot longer than that....my experience allows me to know that she would be very upset if nobody played with her and she needed to cut her hair off. Since I'm her guide in this life presently, I won't allow this to happen to her. And as well, my peers would be looking at me thinking I am a crappy mom for sending my little kid to school like that.

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by brokenheart

So anyway, all this leads me to realize I have to try to be firmer (yet still loving and respectful). She has plenty of choice, but when I tell her something needs to be done a certain way, she must listen. It would be different if she were 11/12/13. But she's 7 (and a rather young 7). I'm still in control... Now....I just need to figure out how to put all this into practice. LOL

OP, I feel for you. And I'm going to point you toward the book that made a big difference for me. It's not as "woo" as some you'll see recommended here, but it's very, very good (and totally rejects any sort of physical or other harsh punishment, of course).

The Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolfe.

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Parenti.../dp/0374527083

Seriously, this is the book for you.

[brokenheart]

Originally Posted by zinemama

Seriously, this is the book for you.

thanks!!!

[gcgirl]

Originally Posted by zinemama

OP, I feel for you. And I'm going to point you toward the book that made a big difference for me. It's not as "woo" as some you'll see recommended here, but it's very, very good (and totally rejects any sort of physical or other harsh punishment, of course).

The Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolfe.

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Parenti.../dp/0374527083

Seriously, this is the book for you.

OMG, I was just going to post this very suggestion! W00T! It is a great book. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I find it a great way to balance the whole family's needs, not just the child's.

[lmk1]

Lots of good opinions and points from both sides of the "parenting" camp on this thread. I won't add one more, as I'm not 100% sure ... all kids are different and all parents are different. I was one of those kids that HATED brushing their hair and to this day, I may say something mean to my mom if she asks me to brush my hair -- I'm 40, and I feel like it's none of her business!

Anyhow, what I wanted to say is if you feel she's being disrespectful to you, there are 3 possible sources she may be copying this type of behavior from: 1 - your relationship with dh 2 - TV 3 - her friends

If your relationship with dh is respectful even during disagreements, then I would suspect TV. The shows that are on today show that being flippant and disrespectful is "cool". Even shows like Lightning McQueen (which is for little kids) have characters calling each other "idiot". If she's seeing this type of behaviour, then it may seem to her that's how you're supposed to behave towards someone, and she obviously feels comfortable with you... Don't take it badly that she's not like that with her dad...it just indicates that she's very secure in your love, but also is "experimenting" with how express her displeasure. Everyone is allowed to feel displeasure (whether it's fair or not); what she needs to know is how to express it to not hurt your feelings. Perhaps if she's watching shows where kids mouth off, talk to her about it...ask her how she thinks it makes the other person feel, so she starts to think about the effect on the other person. She may not realize how badly it makes you feel OR she may realize it only after the fact, and at that point she's angry and may not know how to say "I'm sorry Mom, I know that was mean".

[brokenheart]

Originally Posted by lmk1

if you feel she's being disrespectful to you, there are 3 possible sources she may be copying this type of behavior from: 1 - your relationship with dh 2 - TV 3 - her friends\

Good point. Not dh & I. We don't fight or call each other names in front of her (or behind her, lol). We don't do t.v. at all, but we do let her watch some movies. I guess some of them do have a little name calling here and there, yes. Maybe friends. I do notice her attitude is MUCH worse when she's been @ school. She is in a mixed class (3 grades), so she's with older kids all day. During holidays (Christmas, March Break), she is much sweeter. I guess that must be it.

[Mummoth]

My kids have both behaved this way at times. Given the time of year, it could be that she's about to have a growth spurt (expending extra energy= tiredness = aches and pains, who wouldn't be grumpy?) She' could just be dealing with more right now than is readily apparent. It doesn't make her behaviour okay, but it isn't necessarily that you're doing something wrong or she's spoiled.

I flat-out ask "Do you think being rude to me is going to make me want to give you a treat/ take you to the park/ whatever?" As a serious question, not snippy. Sometimes they think about it. If it's "I hate you" or "You're mean" I sometimes just say "Well, you must not want to be around me then." Sometimes they go with it... my son (8) especially has learned that he'll feel better after a good mope in his room or a ride on his bike. One time I made him go take a shower and he yelled "FINE! But it's NOT going to make me feel better!" and he stormed off and slammed the door on his way in. Ten minutes later he was singing in the rain

[mum21andtwins]

Originally Posted by Earthy Mama

I think that it is a natural consequence. "You have to take a bath before we go to the store (where the snack is)."

No it is artificial created to be a punishment. a natural consequence is your knee is hurt if you fall on it. taking away a treat is a punishment.