Unschooling=a function of privledge/3rd world education - Page 2

[rhiandmoi]

I think that the reason a subsistence family "can't" unschool is because the resources they have readily available to them, do not present a wide enough lens with which to view the world. Because their entire life is focused on barely eking out a meager living, it is very hard for them to broaden the world for their children.

IMO the purpose of an education is to give a person the tools necessary to navigate the world, and to open up as many opportunities as possible. A subsistence family can provide that, but will really struggle, and the number of opportunities they would be able to make possible would be very limited. I think from that perspective it is a 1st world privilege that we live in a society that in many ways is naturally very broad. In fact, in many ways we work to narrow the lens and we try to exclude and limit certain things that we find negative.

I am not sure of how to make my point. Basically, yes - I do think to get a first world education through unschooling, it is much much easier to live in a first world society, and therefore unschooling is a choice of privilege.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by laohaire

Note to self: it's "privilege."

Next note to self: look up "maintenance" and other words I frequently misspell.

Firefox has a spell checker add-on. Soooo very handy. I get a little red squiggly when I type stuff like "sooooo".

[sapphire_chan]

If it's a privilege, does that mean it's a goal to aspire to and dream of having one day?

[Dar]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

If it's a privilege, does that mean it's a goal to aspire to and dream of having one day?

I would say that having the option to unschool is a privilege, just as having the option to send your kid to a private school is, or any school at all, depending on where you life.

And for the record, I unschooled for ten years as a single mom, without any support of any kind from my daughter's father... and starting in 4 days I'll be unschooling as a single mom again.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

Oh how I wish I could be vaguely construed as wealthy...

You can. We all can. We have food, shelter, homes with running water and fuel to cook and heat, leisure time, money for buying decent clothing and luxuries such as a computers, medical care, cars, toys, books, education... We live in great luxury.

And being able to unschool in the way most here do is, of course, a special kind of privilege - there are places in the world where being able to go to primitive school shack is a special kind of privilege. I think it's almost an apples and oranges kind of comparison, though. - Lillian

[cappuccinosmom]

You can. We all can. We have food, shelter, homes with running water and fuel to cook and heat, leisure time, money for buying decent clothing and luxuries such as a computers, medical care, cars, toys, books, education... We live in great luxury.

Yep.


To the question: I think yes, simply by virtue of the massive amount of resources available to us and our children. Sometimes just by the touch of a button on the computer.

There have been exceptional people throughout history who succeeded and learned without first-world resources available to them. But they would be "exceptional" because that is not the usual course of things.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

You can. We all can. We have food, shelter, homes with running water and fuel to cook and heat, leisure time, money for buying decent clothing and luxuries such as a computers, medical care, cars, toys, books, education... We live in great luxury.

I know and agree.

I just meant in this society since the OP was suggesting that there was a certain income level needed to unschool. We have it great in the grand scheme of things.

I was reading some yahoo article about how certain things are no longer considered to be luxury items by the average person in the US (probably especially younger adults). Things like laptops and cell phones are the last thing to go during hard times, even after shelter for some.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by Cukup

No, you're taking it on a personal level. By not fair I mean that the choice to unschool is not open to all in this country. You are lucky enough to be in a situation where you can unschool, but another family who has to have both parents working can't unschool. They have to make a choice-income or unschool.

So either DH or I have to quit our jobs to be "real" unschoolers, according to you?

If I do pursue the public schooling route because I have to go back to work or study, then I feel I am seen as buying into the mainstrean view and treating learning in an unnatural way. If I want to unschool but can't, then I'm viewed as not good enough by unschoolers, even though unschooling really resonates with me. That's when I feel it it a priveldge that not everyone has-but this is never acknowledged.

Yes, it is a privilege. This is a capitalistic society. Money makes our world go 'round. FWIW, I've homeschooled/unschooled through a divorce and single parenting. I'm remarried, but am also a college student, work outside the home about 30 hours a week, and have managed to keep my kids out of school. We are not rich by any stretch of the imagination. My children have health insurance, but DH and I do not. We buy second-hand and/or infrequently when it comes to clothing, furnishings, etc. Anyway, I digress.

It sounds to me like you're more concerned with how others perceive you than anything else. If I worried about how the majority of people viewed me, my lifestyle certainly wouldn't be as it is. I live the life I want to live, and to h&%* with everyone else. You know what they say about opinions....

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

I know and agree.

I just meant in this society since the OP was suggesting that there was a certain income level needed to unschool. We have it great in the grand scheme of things.

Well, that shows how hurriedly I was reading this morning - all my eye caught was the reference to the poor in third world countries. As for a certain income level needed to unschool (or just plain ol' homeschool) here, I think that depends on whether a family has enough basics for reasonably comfortable living and a certain amount of leisure time together that isn't wrapped in worry and stress. Outside classes and field trips and such do depend on having a certain amount of free money, but an awful lot can be done pretty cheaply too. - Lillian

[CrazyCatLady]

I know and agree.

I just meant in this society since the OP was suggesting that there was a certain income level needed to unschool. We have it great in the grand scheme of things.

That's what I meant too. That by America's average standard of living, you can't get much poorer then me. I do realize how lucky I am compared to others.

There was even a short time that my daughter and I lived in my van, and we still unschooled. Spent a lot of time at the park, McDonalds play places, and eating dinners at the churches every night.

Or I've had some family members who had 2-3 families all sharing one modest house. The men all worked minimum wage jobs and the women stayed home and unschooled the kids.

Maybe not ideal, maybe not even a great idea. But if you really want to unschool in this country, you probably can. It's just a matter of what you're willing to sacrifice to do it. And I certainly don't disagree or look down on people who put financial stability ahead of unschooling (I wish I could be more like them in fact). Everybody is going to have different priorities and that's cool.

[accountclosed3]

does it matter if a person isn't unschooled?

while i believe that unschooling will likely be the best educational option for my child and my family, i do not believe that it is the best for every child or every family.

this is why i support public education. my value is such that i believe in an educated society. therefore, schooling should be available for all.

[Cukup]

"So either DH or I have to quit our jobs to be "real" unschoolers, according to you?"

There is no 'according to me' here. I'm just wondering how people less able to multi-task as well as you manage. I personally could not work and unschool. Where would my children go during my and DH's working hours? I could not work at night and unschool by day-I need to sleep. Clearly you can do it all and that's lovely, but I couldn't so how am I meant to physically achieve unschooling?

Thanks for all the discussion, appreciated.

[CrazyCatLady]

There is no 'according to me' here. I'm just wondering how people less able to multi-task as well as you manage. I personally could not work and unschool. Where would my children go during my and DH's working hours? I could not work at night and unschool by day-I need to sleep. Clearly you can do it all and that's lovely, but I couldn't so how am I meant to physically achieve unschooling?

Well you could just forget about unschooling, since it's not for every family and that's ok. Or you could take some of the advice/tips already mentioned in this thread. We could even give you more help if unschooling is really something that you want to do.

Like I know another unschooling family who's 10 year old daughter goes to a day care some days while the mom works. She gets to help with the babies, play with the toddlers, learn to cook with the mom, read, hang out on the computer, swim, etc. She loves it so far and her parents can still work while she unschools. The other days she goes to her grandma's house.

Usually if there's a will, there's a way. But if it feels overwhelming to you, then it probably isn't worth the stress. School can be a great choice for families too.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Cukup

...I'm just wondering how people less able to multi-task as well as you manage. I personally could not work and unschool. Where would my children go during my and DH's working hours? I could not work at night and unschool by day-I need to sleep. Clearly you can do it all and that's lovely, but I couldn't so how am I meant to physically achieve unschooling?

Thanks for all the discussion, appreciated.

I am sensing a tiny bit of defensiveness (or frustration) in the above post - and I am not sure where it is coming from.

I do not think women have to be "supermom" to pull off working and USing. Might it be hard? Yes. But without question, having kids in school can be hard, too. I have a good friend whose son has recently been diagnosed with ADHD - the mother has been into meetings with the school on a monthly basis, minimum, and she is called weekly over behaviour issues. He has a pyschologist and a behaviour specialist and a tutor, and it goes on and on. How is that any easier than USing? Parenting can be hard, no matter how you arrange things.

Personal situations vary, but if you have young children and want to US and want/need to work there is a good chance you may be able to organise your life so you can do both. You certainly will not be able to do so if you give up before hand saying "it is impossible to work and US". If your children are quite young time is on your side - you have years to get your ducks in a row.

Now if you simply do not want to US, that is fine.

I do not think you should coach it in terms of can't, however. Most people can HS/US - although it may come with sacrifices they are not willing to make ( IMNSHO those sacrifices aren't always as big as people think they are, but that is another post for an other thread). It is not really a "can't" issue in most cases - it is a "choose not to". All of this is very germaine to USing as choice and freewill are cornerstones of USing.

[Annoia]

Originally Posted by CrazyCatLady

\
Like I know another unschooling family who's 10 year old daughter goes to a day care some days while the mom works. She gets to help with the babies, play with the toddlers, learn to cook with the mom, read, hang out on the computer, swim, etc. She loves it so far and her parents can still work while she unschools. The other days she goes to her grandma's house.

That's what I do. Not full time, as I typically WAH. But I *just* finished my PhD, and would use the care provider for two weeks or so at a time while I was working on my dissertation. She provides care in her home, and was very flexible so I was able to pretty much tailor care to fit our needs. I still use her when I have to WOH (about once a month for a week).

Originally Posted by CrazyCatLady

\Usually if there's a will, there's a way.

Yup, yup, yup. People often ask me "how do you do it?" (by it they mean grad school, working, homeschooling, being pregnant with #3 AND living 2.5 hours away from work and school). All I can say, is I just DO. It does require some creativity and flexibility, but mostly in brainstorming all the different options. I can honestly say, tho', that the kids and I have fun doing what we do!

And for multi-tasking ... I don't really think of myself as a multi-tasker....no more so than any other mom!!

[Cukup]

So it is still US if the child hangs out with a caregiver other than a parent? In the case of a child going to daycare wouldn't they be regimented by that daycare's schedule and other kids there. If the child wanted to go to park to play but there were other children at the daycare who couldn't due to naps/age etc---then the US child can't follow their desires. What happens if the child wakes up and doesn't feel like going to the daycare but the parent has to work, how is US accommodated?

I had no idea that US could be outsourced in this way. I figured if a child wanted to do soccer lessons you could outsource that because they wanted to do it and it was a short activity. I just am surprised to learn that sending a child to a daycare setting or another carer would be still considered US.

In CCLady's example it sounds like that child goes either to daycare where she hangs out but is restricted in what she can do because of the other smaller children or she goes to a grandparent. Where is the US here? How is it being accomplished if a parent isn't there to help a child with their preferred choices? I can see this working if a grandparent can do US fully but wonder if this is the reality. You're asking someone else to US your child. Interesting for me to hear about!

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Cukup

So it is still US if the child hangs out with a caregiver other than a parent? In the case of a child going to daycare wouldn't they be regimented by that daycare's schedule and other kids there. If the child wanted to go to park to play but there were other children at the daycare who couldn't due to naps/age etc---then the US child can't follow their desires. What happens if the child wakes up and doesn't feel like going to the daycare but the parent has to work, how is US accommodated?

My middle would like to go swimming today. She can't - I have a doctors appointment and other stuff to do. I do not think USing always means dropping everything and doing what the child wants to do. We live in families and everyones needs have to met. The same could be said for childcare - a child may want to go to the park but not get to at that exact moment - that is life.

I will say my daughter really loves to swim, and we provide a lot of opportunities to swim. If a child had a strong desire to go to the park, a family should try to make it happen as often as possible. It is the big picture that matters - and not whether a child gets to do xyz at any given moment.

I do acknowledge that most childcare situations are not going to be as free flowing as home. In my area, they are more free flowing than school, however, and an unrestrictive environment is very important to us. If it came down to childcare or school in my area, from a restrictiveness POV (which is what your post seems to be adressing) I would and have picked childcare.

I stand by my earlier post that I would not want to work full time and have children in childcare fulltime. I have set up my life accordingly. If someone has to work full time there are tough decisions to make - but those decisions will be highly personal: what is the quality of schools, what is the quality of childcare, where would your child be happiers, etc.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by Cukup

So it is still US if the child hangs out with a caregiver other than a parent? In the case of a child going to daycare wouldn't they be regimented by that daycare's schedule and other kids there. If the child wanted to go to park to play but there were other children at the daycare who couldn't due to naps/age etc---then the US child can't follow their desires. What happens if the child wakes up and doesn't feel like going to the daycare but the parent has to work, how is US accommodated?

From Unschooling.com...

Generally, unschoolers are concerned with learning or becoming educated, not with 'doing school.' The focus is upon the choices made by each individual learner, and those choices can vary according to learning style and personality type. There is no one way to unschool.

Unschooling is about having choices and freedom; it's not about cultivating a spoiled child who always needs to have his way. Neither is it about being a doormat to your child, or a martyr. My kid was a karate student for a while, and has recently moved over to Brazilian jiu jitsu. What he would really like is to do both. Well, that's just too bad because I can't afford it. We don't stop being unschoolers just because we live in the real world and acknowledge that there are limits. I suppose I could find more hours at work in order to pay for extra classes, but then other things would suffer....my marriage, my sanity, my own schoolwork. My time, money, and energy has to be shared between a lot of different things, and that is just reality unless you're independently wealthy.

[Annoia]

Originally Posted by Cukup

If the child wanted to go to park to play but there were other children at the daycare who couldn't due to naps/age etc---then the US child can't follow their desires. What happens if the child wakes up and doesn't feel like going to the daycare but the parent has to work, how is US accommodated?

Meh. Not really a big deal to me.

Just using the park example, IRL my kids can't go to the park when they want right now b/c a) I'm too darn pregnant and b) I'm too darn pregnant and it's BLAZING hot outside. Since I'm not travelling and therefore not using the in-home provider in the other city, I use a local babysitter about once or twice a week. I explained to her how we function as a family, and she's cool with it (actually, I've found EVERYONE I talk to 'gets' unschooling, as long as I don't call it unschooling ). She ends up taking the kids to the park for me. The kids absolutely LOVE having her come over.

With very few exceptions, both my kids (7 and 2) LOVE going to the in-home provider and having the sitter over. Maybe mostly for the change of pace, who knows. The few times there's been a complaint (as in "I don't want to go" - just from the 7yo) I simply discuss it with them. I work. Work buys us cool things and necessary things (from video games to food). There are times where I need to work without them around (and I explain why). And that's worked for us.

Originally Posted by Cukup

I had no idea that US could be outsourced in this way.

That's an interesting way of putting it. Kinda makes me think of a job. Or something you "do" to your kids.

For me, I have a way of life happens to coincide (for the most part, but not completely) with the definition of unschooling (tho' I prefer community-based learning when thinking about the education aspect of things). I didn't fit my life into the definition of unschooling.

I'm not quite sure how I would outsource my way of life.

And I am pretty sure the other adults in my children's lives don't consider themselves as "unschooling" my kids. They spend time with them, develop relationships, and generally have a pretty good time just living daily life with them.

[Annoia]

Originally Posted by Cukup

That others may be judged for choosing institionalized learning over unschooling, but unschooling is a privledge not every family can achieve.

If I do pursue the public schooling route because I have to go back to work or study, then I feel I am seen as buying into the mainstrean view and treating learning in an unnatural way. If I want to unschool but can't, then I'm viewed as not good enough by unschoolers, even though unschooling really resonates with me. That's when I feel it it a priveldge that not everyone has-but this is never acknowledged.

I feel like this is worth reflecting on. There's a lot of focus on the Other here (the judgement of others, what others consider mainstream, being perceived as not good enough by others). That can be pretty overwhelming and (for me) pretty depressing to focus on.

Sooo.....I don't focus on it! When I first started my parenting journey (7 years ago), I felt like a freak compared to mainstream parents, and a square compared to the crunchy parents. I practiced AP .... but was I AP ENOUGH? Was I too AP for the parents I knew IRL? BLECH. It sucked.

Now, a ways down the road, I really couldn't care less about labels and group norms (not, of course, to the point of being a complete sociopath). I explore options, do a lot of soul-searching, and find the path that works for me. I ask for advice from a wide variety of people when I'm stuck. Some are crunchy, some aren't. Some unschool, some don't. Some aren't even parents! Oh, and I read and read and read.....

So do what works for you. The goal, in my mind, is not "unschooling" but "family happiness / family health".

If you think unschooling might work, but aren't sure...then ask away! Are there any specific concerns? Like, maybe, how to combine unschooling with work? Or how to unschool on a budget?